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Post by yardstick on Nov 30, 2017 23:11:41 GMT -6
boraddict, even though we cannot convince our neighbor that Jesus is the Savior of the world, we have reasons that we believe it. We heard something that rang true, we felt the spirit move, we see the fulfillment of prophecy, we detect the change within ourselves, we see the evidence in the world around us, etc. And, as Natalie says, there is historical and archeological evidence. ... Are you able to shed some light as to how you gained your understanding of the angels - the truth to you? Thank you Silent. To answer your question I need to provide some background information. While working on the chiasmus for the Book of Revelation, Chapter six was being difficult. Thus, I placed it twice in the chiasmus. Sometime later, a year or two, I noticed that the four horsemen were four men. Thus, I set out to find who these men were. After careful consideration I could see that the great sward was the great flood, thus, the second horseman was Noah. The first was therefore Enoch, and the third was Moses. Since the fourth, Death, was followed by Hell, then the fourth was Elijah. While doing this research I concluded that these four men were translated. That is, since some were, then all were. It seemed to be the qualification of being placed as the four horsemen. Somewhere during this research I noticed that each of these four men were born during 1,000 year periods of time. Thus, in my opinion, Enoch was in the first seal (1,000 year period), Noah in the 2nd, Moses in the 3rd, and Elijah in the fourth. Since there were seven seals then there must be seven translated men. Thus, number five was obviously John (John 21:23). Since we are currently in the sixth 1,000 year period, then the sixth had to come from year 1,000 to the present day. I could not find anyone that was translated for that period so I summarized that this sixth man must not have been translated yet. Then one day I was working on the sixth angel in Rev. 9:13-14 and noticed that the link to Verse 6:12 was not in line with my previous conclusions. That is, Verse 6:12 seemed to go directly to the Chapter 16 woe. So what happened to the sixth man? Then I made the connection between the four angels of Rev. 9:15, 7:2, and 8:7-12. I had already discovered that the angels of 8:7-12 were four judgments (in my opinion that is); thus, the link showed that the four angels were four judgments and John was telling someone to participate in those judgments (v. 9:1 that carries into v. 9:13). That is, John that is the fifth angel due to the "Word of God" language in Verse 6:9, was now instructing the 6th angel to participate in the four judgments. I found it interesting that the four judgments were listed as three woes. So where was the fourth woe? It had to have taken place prior to Chapter 8. That is, if three woes remained, then the first woe was in Verse 7:1. I worked under this assumption and flushed out that the sixth angel was in fact the 144,000. Thus, it is the 144,000 in Verse 9:14 that John is instructing to participate in the four Judgments. However, since one judgment was past, then the four angels in Rev. 9:14 are in fact three judgments. I worked this through and to my satisfaction confirmed my hypothesis using Verse 7:3. The next question was, who is number seven. I had previously worked through Chapter 19 and found that Verses 19:11-21 were summarized in Verses 8:2-6. Thus, the seventh angel was in Verse 19:17. Interestingly, this angel is in Verses 1:1, 10:8, and multiple of other verses throughout the book. Thus, the angels, in my opinion, are: 1-4, the four judgments, 5 is John, 6 is the 144,000, and seven is the angel that is showing the Vision of the Book of Revelation to John. Like I have previously explained, I worked through Chatpers 10 and 11 to find that this seventh angel is Micahel from Dan. 12:1. If all the seven angels represent translated men, then who is this, the seventh translated man? Since he must be alive during the 7th 1,000 year period of time, then he must live after the mid point of the seven years of Tribulation. Again, this appeared to me to be Michael. If that is true, t hen who was he in mortality? The leap that I have no evidence of is that it is Adam. That is, if Adam is the angel of the Book of Revelation and he is one of the two witnesses, the who was the angel of the Old Testament. Again, another leap; it must have been John. That is my analysis of the angels of the Book of Revelation. As far as truth, I concede to your and others analysis that we know it when we hear it. Thus we are of the truth. My neighbor might never get it. Regarding the things in bold above: What caused you to notice that the four horsemen were men? What caused you to determine that the four horsemen must be men who were translated? How did you determine the great sword was the flood? Which man was hell? Given Genesis 9:29, how do you draw the conclusion that Noah was translated? Given Deuteronomy 34:5, how do you draw the conclusion that Moses was translated? If there were 7 seals leading to 7 translated men, why were there not 7 horsemen also? Why is it that the 7 trumpet angels are assigned translated men, but not the 7 bowl angels? Why would there be one woe in chapter 7, but the other three in chapter 8? How did you draw the conclusion that a single angel represents 144,000 jewish men? What evidence did you use to draw the conclusion that one angel is described in 1:1, 10:8 and other verses? Can you please explain how a mortal man becomes an angel? |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 30, 2017 23:17:02 GMT -6
Thank you yardstick, your analysis is much more precise than mine.
Here is the King James reading of the verse:
v. 11:1, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod," Like you said, it is reasonable that Lord Jesus gave John the reed.
"and the angel stood, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." This is the angel speaking to John.
However, like you said, Verse 3 is clearly Lord Jesus.
If Chapters 10 and 11 are run together then the verses are as follows:
v. 10:8, Lord Jesus speaks to John
v. 10:9, John speaks to the angel and the angel speaks to John
v. 10:10, narrative from John
v. 10:11, either the angel or Lord Jesus speaks to John about prophesying before many people
v. 11:1, John is given a reed from Lord Jesus or the angel, and the angel instructs John to measure the temple
v. 11:2, The instruction continues
v. 11:3, Lord Jesus speaks about the two witnesses.
Thus, clearly in the Verse 10:8 to Verse 11:3 parallel Lord Jesus is speaking.
It seems to me that Verses 10:9 through 11:2 are a dialogue between the angel and John with the central instruction being that John is to prophesy before many people.
You are much better at the technical side of the analysis. Is this scenario plausible.
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Post by yardstick on Dec 1, 2017 0:26:19 GMT -6
Thank you yardstick, your analysis is much more precise than mine. Here is the King James reading of the verse: v. 11:1, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod," Like you said, it is reasonable that Lord Jesus gave John the reed. "and the angel stood, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." This is the angel speaking to John. However, like you said, Verse 3 is clearly Lord Jesus. If Chapters 10 and 11 are run together then the verses are as follows: v. 10:8, Lord Jesus speaks to John v. 10:9, John speaks to the angel and the angel speaks to John v. 10:10, narrative from John v. 10:11, either the angel or Lord Jesus speaks to John about prophesying before many people v. 11:1, John is given a reed from Lord Jesus or the angel, and the angel instructs John to measure the temple v. 11:2, The instruction continues v. 11:3, Lord Jesus speaks about the two witnesses. Thus, clearly in the Verse 10:8 to Verse 11:3 parallel Lord Jesus is speaking. It seems to me that Verses 10:9 through 11:2 are a dialogue between the angel and John with the central instruction being that John is to prophesy before many people. You are much better at the technical side of the analysis. Is this scenario plausible. Before I answer your question, I have to ask if you have looked at the original greek passage? biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/11-1.htmThe interlinear, lining up the greek words with the english equivalent, shows that the word angel is not in the original greek. Though the KJV can be very good in terms of accurate translation, in this instance, it appears that it is incorrect. The greek word for angel is found below. As you look through the interlinear passage above, you will notice that the word for angel is not present. biblehub.com/greek/32.htmI will go back and review the end of chapter 10, since I did not include that in my analysis. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 1, 2017 1:12:06 GMT -6
Regarding the things in bold above:
What caused you to notice that the four horsemen were men?
Yes. It was an ongoing complication that I was having with Chapter 6. It seemed to be a transitional chapter bridging the resurrection chapters (4 & 5) to the 144,000 in Chapter 7. I had known for quite some time that the number 4 is repeated throughout the book. For example the four plagues (v. 18:8), and the four angels, four corners of the earth, and four winds in Verse 7:1. It seemed that every time I looked at something I was finding the number four. Four visions, four judgments, etc. Thus, the four horsemen started to appear not as four horsemen but as another reinforcement of the number four. It was at this point that the four horsemen became less pronounced and the seven seals became the dominant consideration for me in Chapter 6. Thus, I started looking at the seven seals that span Chapter 6 through Verse 8:5. While doing this, I thought of the possibility of the seven seals having an association to seven men. It was then that I was able to form a hypothesis as to who these seven men were.
What caused you to determine that the four horsemen must be men who were translated?
Yes. This one was an outgrowth of the research stated above. I wondered how these seven men could play a role in the tribulation if they had died and their bodies turned to dust. I simply extrapolated that since some had been translated then all were translated. I have no proof of that being the case.
How did you determine the great sword was the flood?
This was a moment of insight. I was wondering how peace could be taken from the earth as stated in Verse 6:4. The next thing I thought was the connection between the great sward and the great flood. Thus, for me, peace is taken from the earth with Noah's flood. Everyone would have been fighting for survival.
Which man was hell?
Death is followed by Hell like Elijah is followed by Elisha.
Given Genesis 9:29, how do you draw the conclusion that Noah was translated?
Yes. this was a dilemma for me and perhaps an error in the analysis. I weighed the possibility that "died" in the verse might be metaphor for translated; similar to "sleep" in John 11:11-13 that means death. Since the other men in Chapter 6 appeared to be translated then my conclusion was that Noah was translated.
Given Deuteronomy 34:5, how do you draw the conclusion that Moses was translated?
Yes, this one was much easier than that of Noah (above) because the verse states: "according to the word of the Lord." Thus, it appeared to me that the word of the Lord said that Moses had died. Again, I concluded that the use of the word "died" is being used as metaphor.
If there were 7 seals leading to 7 translated men, why were there not 7 horsemen also?
I am of the opinion that the four horsemen have a primary application to the number 4. Secondly, the four horsemen may have an application to the four judgments although I have not pursued an investigation to that end. However, there is a link from Verse 6:8 to 12:17 that seems to indicate that possibility.
Why is it that the 7 trumpet angels are assigned translated men, but not the 7 bowl angels?
I have not researched this aspect of the angels. Where are the seven bowl angels located in scripture? I will get back to you on that.
Why would there be one woe in chapter 7, but the other three in chapter 8?
Yes. This question puts a smile on my face. That was like finding a needle in a haystack. I could clearly see the for angels in Verses 8:7-12 representing the four judgments. However, Verse 8:13 states that there are three woes (remaining). So what happened to the first of the four woes. I found it in Verse 7:1. More correctly however, Verse 7:1 carries over from Verses 6:12-17. The problem is that there are overlapping stories. There is an ending at Verse 6:12 and again at Verse 8:5. The endings are highlighted by the "great earthquake." I concluded that the Verse 6:12 ending was there to merely stress the tribulation era, whereas the ending at Verse 8:5 was a true and solid ending. There is also an ending at Verses 11:13 and 11:19. Thus, it was a matter of following the story from Verse 6:1 through 11:19. In that context the four judgments go from Verse 6:12 to 8:12 and the last three of the four judgments go from Chapter 9 through Chapter 11.
How did you draw the conclusion that a single angel represents 144,000 jewish men?
This was like a giant jig saw puzzle and it developed primarily from Verse 9:15. I may have explained this elsewhere in this thread. If not then I will revisit this question.
What evidence did you use to draw the conclusion that one angel is described in 1:1, 10:8 and other verses?
This was an ongoing challenge for me. I was placing the angels in order especially in Chapter 14. Which reminds me that I need to revisit that chapter for further analysis. Anyway, I started finding links from one angel to the next. Like the "loud voice" in Verse 14:15 linking to the "loud voice" in Verse 19:17 linking to the "loud voice" in Verse 10:3. There are other links as well but the loud voice is the best one. Then I noticed that Verse 1:1 states that only one angel was showing the message to John.
Can you please explain how a mortal man becomes an angel?
In the case of the angels of the Bible I think they are servants of Lord Jesus that have assigned powers to do their job.
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 1, 2017 17:21:20 GMT -6
Hello friends, - greetings to all. This topic is one of my favorites - top 7 let's say. I really appreciate the way that boraddict has shown some really amazing stuff with the chiastic structure of Revelation. I also really appreciate that you have stated clearly and repeatedly that something is your opinion - and even some things you believe are true, but can't prove them. ;-)
I'm a fellow watchman with you all - and have learned so much and value this process of sharing ideas - like pieces of a huge puzzle. Sometimes I was "Sure" that my blue piece had to be sky - it was too even and clear to be water.
It was only when I joined my piece with whatif , or mike , or kjs , or @natalie, or paulwatchmandawson , or nana , or someone else - that I realized it was actually a blue house. ;-)
I definitely believe that there are some clear examples of chiastic structure in scripture - with that said - as gracious as I can be- I think there is great danger when we impose this structure on every chapter of every book. - or even poetic books or wisdom like Proverbs, Psalms or Revelation - it leads to Eisegesis - reading something into the text that is not there.
As others have pointed out - one of the basic steps of Biblical interpretation is to look at the historical and grammatical context - and look at the original language.
We can't interpret Poetic genre literally, but we also can't take Historical narrative and make it allegory. ***This is the biggest problem with those who try to impose an allegorical framework on Genesis - that the creation days are long epochs.
Even hostile witness and linguistic experts in Biblical Hebrew acknowledge that Genesis is History - it is not even written in a poetic or allegorical style.
The same thing happens when a person takes a word like Adam, or Angel, or 144,000 and arbitrarily says that John really was an angel, or to say "died" in a passage of historical genre meant 'translated' - or that "3 days and 3 nights" really means something else - we get eisegesis. This very problem has created massive confusion regarding End Times because people erroneously assume that the Day of the Lord, is the same thing as the Day of Christ, or that the Seventh Trumpet blown by the seventh angel is the same as the "Last Trumpet" referred to by Paul. Ignoring the context.
I'm totally conscious of the fact that the very nature of this entire forum and the whole topic of Eschatology involves a high amount of speculation - about the rapture, 2 witnesses, 3rd temple, start of the Tribulation, -- Is there a gap? How long? Is Magog Russia or Turkey? Is Elvis one of the two witnesses?
I do think - IMHO - that we should make a distinction between speculating/having opinions and 'interpreting scripture' based on a particular poetic structure that occurs in isolated cases.
"If at first the text makes literal sense, seek no other sense, or it will become nonsense."
This is where we look at the context-
Historical context- Who wrote it, and to whom was it written??
Cultural context- Was this descriptive/story, or prescriptive - instruction for Churches everywhere?
Grammatical context - Look at the original language, look at the genre? Epistle, Gospels, Poetry or Wisdom literature?
If we are reading about a door or a tree in Psalms, Daniel or Revelation, - it's likely not a literal tree, but when we read about a house, or chariot in Acts or one of the Gospels, there's no reason to make it allegorical.
Two of the biggest candidates for the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah - for multiple reasons.
One being that these two are the only ones who scripture says were translated - did not die.
Many see them as being OT Prophets - because they preach, and do miracles and breathe out fire.
Another big reason is that even to this day - At Passover, Jews leave an empty seat for Elijah, as he is seen as preparing the way for the Messiah, and many scholars see these witnesses as being Jewish prophets.
Another big reason is that Malachi mentions that God will send Elijah explicitly.
Malachi 4:5
“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord."
Malachi is prophetic literature. Could it mean someone in the spirit of Elijah? like Elijah in some way? possibly.
Before we consider Elvis or John Wayne as a candidate, we should first look at scripture.
Maranatha
I've heard multiple times - and it's a very interesting theory - That another reason Enoch is a high candidate is that he is a Gentile ? Can anyone else explain this - I don't find anything from scripture that says he's a Gentile.
Disciple4life.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 1, 2017 23:55:22 GMT -6
This is from your posting:
"I'm totally conscious of the fact that the very nature of this entire forum and the whole topic of Eschatology involves a high amount of speculation - about the rapture, 2 witnesses, 3rd temple, start of the Tribulation, -- Is there a gap? How long? Is Magog Russia or Turkey? Is Elvis one of the two witnesses? "
I seriously doubt that the nature of this forum is to discover if Elvis is one of the two witnesses.
Thus, from one friend to another, I do not sky dive, nor do I run marathons, I simply love to study scripture. If I find something of value then I hope that you will use it as your own. A free gift from me to you. If I find nothing of value then I hope you will continue reading my work and give feedback as to where I might have made an error.
With regard to the linguistic devices not being in all the books of scripture, how can you prove that? Gen. Chapter 15 is heavily laden with metaphor and it may also have chiasmi.
I would like to challenge you to find the link between Rev. 6:8 and Rev. 12:17.
For example, in Rev. 6:8, there is power given to "them" (Death and Hell) over the fourth part of the earth. The fourth part has an application to the number 4 that is repeated in the Book of Revelation. It also has an application to the list of four that follows: to kill with sward, with hunger, with death, and with the beasts of the earth. The one that stands out is to kill with death. Thus, this one can be set aside because it appears to be a place holder bringing the number from 3 to 4 in this application of the verse.
Thus, three remain and they are to kill with the sward, hunger, and the beasts of the earth.
For me there is an obvious link from Rev. 6:8 is to Rev. 18:8 in which the plagues are: death, mourning, famine, and utterly burned with fire. Here again, death is out for the same reason as mentioned above and this leaves: mourning, famine, and utterly burned with fire.
Hunger in Rev. 6:8 links to famine in Rev. 18:8; thus, these two are out.
This leaves 1) killed with the sward and 2) with the beasts of the earth in Rev. 6:8 linking to 1) the plague of mourning and 2) utterly burned with fire in Rev. 18:8.
Thus, it is my conclusion that killed with the sward is the plague of mourning, and killed with the beasts of the earth is the plague of utterly burned with fire.
Now, let's bring back death from both Rev. 6:8 and 18:8 above. It follows that that Death kills with the sward causing mourning, and Hell are the beasts that burn with fire (Rev. 17:16). Thus, Death is Satan and Hell are his two beasts that follow "with him," the beast and the false prophet.
Thus, Rev. 6:8 is about the destruction of Babylon.
However, when Rev. 6:8 is read in conjunction with the seven seals then it has an entirely different application.
This is what I like to do. Hope you like it. No harm no foul.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 10:21:39 GMT -6
Thanks for your response to me, boraddict. That was an excellent, detailed explanation.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 3, 2017 12:54:11 GMT -6
I think the Two witnesses, are alive and just present day people, existing now, and wont be descending from heaven. Our two being battled by the devils
's Two evil witnesses, the AC and the False prophet. They also being not reincarnated devilish people but modern day people.
Our past brethren were definitely archetypes of our future ones. Joshua, Zerrabel...Moses Aaron.....David Nathan but I reckon ours will be from the loins of David... a descendant of David literally, as promised to King David of Old.
Our Prophet or Prophetess however I dont know his/her lineage as she must take care of our Tabernacle in the wilderness, as we travel to the place the Lord has prepared for us.. IMO
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 4, 2017 2:39:49 GMT -6
Regarding the things in bold above: What caused you to notice that the four horsemen were men? Yes. It was an ongoing complication that I was having with Chapter 6. It seemed to be a transitional chapter bridging the resurrection chapters (4 & 5) to the 144,000 in Chapter 7. I had known for quite some time that the number 4 is repeated throughout the book. For example the four plagues (v. 18:8), and the four angels, four corners of the earth, and four winds in Verse 7:1. It seemed that every time I looked at something I was finding the number four. Four visions, four judgments, etc. Thus, the four horsemen started to appear not as four horsemen but as another reinforcement of the number four. It was at this point that the four horsemen became less pronounced and the seven seals became the dominant consideration for me in Chapter 6. Thus, I started looking at the seven seals that span Chapter 6 through Verse 8:5. While doing this, I thought of the possibility of the seven seals having an association to seven men. It was then that I was able to form a hypothesis as to who these seven men were. What caused you to determine that the four horsemen must be men who were translated? Yes. This one was an outgrowth of the research stated above. I wondered how these seven men could play a role in the tribulation if they had died and their bodies turned to dust. I simply extrapolated that since some had been translated then all were translated. I have no proof of that being the case. How did you determine the great sword was the flood? This was a moment of insight. I was wondering how peace could be taken from the earth as stated in Verse 6:4. The next thing I thought was the connection between the great sward and the great flood. Thus, for me, peace is taken from the earth with Noah's flood. Everyone would have been fighting for survival. Which man was hell? Death is followed by Hell like Elijah is followed by Elisha. Given Genesis 9:29, how do you draw the conclusion that Noah was translated?Yes. this was a dilemma for me and perhaps an error in the analysis. I weighed the possibility that "died" in the verse might be metaphor for translated; similar to "sleep" in John 11:11-13 that means death. Since the other men in Chapter 6 appeared to be translated then my conclusion was that Noah was translated. Given Deuteronomy 34:5, how do you draw the conclusion that Moses was translated?Yes, this one was much easier than that of Noah (above) because the verse states: "according to the word of the Lord." Thus, it appeared to me that the word of the Lord said that Moses had died. Again, I concluded that the use of the word "died" is being used as metaphor. If there were 7 seals leading to 7 translated men, why were there not 7 horsemen also? I am of the opinion that the four horsemen have a primary application to the number 4. Secondly, the four horsemen may have an application to the four judgments although I have not pursued an investigation to that end. However, there is a link from Verse 6:8 to 12:17 that seems to indicate that possibility. Why is it that the 7 trumpet angels are assigned translated men, but not the 7 bowl angels? I have not researched this aspect of the angels. Where are the seven bowl angels located in scripture? I will get back to you on that. Why would there be one woe in chapter 7, but the other three in chapter 8? Yes. This question puts a smile on my face. That was like finding a needle in a haystack. I could clearly see the for angels in Verses 8:7-12 representing the four judgments. However, Verse 8:13 states that there are three woes (remaining). So what happened to the first of the four woes. I found it in Verse 7:1. More correctly however, Verse 7:1 carries over from Verses 6:12-17. The problem is that there are overlapping stories. There is an ending at Verse 6:12 and again at Verse 8:5. The endings are highlighted by the "great earthquake." I concluded that the Verse 6:12 ending was there to merely stress the tribulation era, whereas the ending at Verse 8:5 was a true and solid ending. There is also an ending at Verses 11:13 and 11:19. Thus, it was a matter of following the story from Verse 6:1 through 11:19. In that context the four judgments go from Verse 6:12 to 8:12 and the last three of the four judgments go from Chapter 9 through Chapter 11. How did you draw the conclusion that a single angel represents 144,000 jewish men?This was like a giant jig saw puzzle and it developed primarily from Verse 9:15. I may have explained this elsewhere in this thread. If not then I will revisit this question. What evidence did you use to draw the conclusion that one angel is described in 1:1, 10:8 and other verses? This was an ongoing challenge for me. I was placing the angels in order especially in Chapter 14. Which reminds me that I need to revisit that chapter for further analysis. Anyway, I started finding links from one angel to the next. Like the "loud voice" in Verse 14:15 linking to the "loud voice" in Verse 19:17 linking to the "loud voice" in Verse 10:3. There are other links as well but the loud voice is the best one. Then I noticed that Verse 1:1 states that only one angel was showing the message to John. Can you please explain how a mortal man becomes an angel?In the case of the angels of the Bible I think they are servants of Lord Jesus that have assigned powers to do their job. So, just to clarify, My post above was that the nature of the entire forum [Primarily, but not exclusively eschatology] involves lots of speculation/ guessing, and forming opinions - based on signs, rightly dividing scripture, and some would add dreams, etc. This thread is about the witnesses and One example of opinions from thousands on this forum was the opinion that Elvis could be one of the witnesses. - not mine. ;-) A little humor. Someone else had the opinion that the rapture would happen on Halloween, and someone else has the opinion that the secret to understanding the Harpazo lies in the pyramids. I have opinions that are based more on history or specific reasons, but not scripture, and many disagree. That's OK. I want to make a distinction between sharing our opinions - hypotheses with other watchmen, and principles of solid Biblical interpretation. ***My apologies - because I don't know yet how to take specific quotes without the entire post. So the Bold Blue above are some examples of questions - places where I and others have questions regarding the analysis. The point of this is not to correct - everyone has the right to their opinion. ;-) Rather, it is to raise the issue that there is great danger when we/ anyone practices eisegesis - reading something in to scripture that is not there - and this can directly affect doctrine and the application of scripture to our lives.
Sometimes - for Otters/expressives - it's easier to say what we're not saying. I'm not saying that Chiastic structure doesn't exist - or that it's nowhere. I'm not discounting your opinion.  I'm not saying that there aren't parallels, or that we shouldn't look for them, and try to understand what they might mean.  I'm saying that it's a slippery slope to try to impose a specific poetic structure on any/ every chapter/ book, and that doing so causes all kinds of flawed conclusions - but most importantly - it totally undercuts principles of Basic Interpretation. Making the assumption that 144,000 Jews - stated explicitly in Revel as from the twelve tribes - is one angel. Making the assumption that the word died means translated, Making the assumption that Noah and Moses were also translated -when scripture is clear that they died. Concluding that since some were translated - that all were, and that simply because they were born in six different millennia, that they are connected to the seven bowls/ seven seals. Concluding that angels could be humans, when scripture is clear that there are numerous and specific differences- angels don't marry, are not able to be born again, have special powers, etc, etc. Both Greek and Hebrew have specific words for humans and angels.
- The proof that this Chiastic structure doesn't appear everywhere - [can't be applied to every book, every chapter] is that this is a poetry / literary structure that is imposed on the English translation, based on chapter and verses, Neither of which existed in the original languages. Furthermore, they did not even exist - were not added until the 13th century. The danger is when we ignore the original languages, or arbitrarily decide that words mean other words, or decide that because four appears in multiple places, it automatically means that it's connected in any way to another passage with four. - Another example of making a flawed parallel is the notion that the "Last Trumpet" that Paul referenced in I Corinthians, is the Seventh Angel in Revelation. This is wrong at so many levels - There are countless examples of this. People insist that Gog of Magog war must be after the millennium, when in fact the events and descriptions surrounding the two passages are very very different. It is for the exact same reason that we cannot insist that Enoch and Elijah MUST be the two witnesses, simply on the grounds that they both were translated.
It is my opinion - that the two witnesses will be Old Testament prophets - Specifically known by Jews - because they are witnessing and doing miracles and this is based on clues from scripture, but we don't have black and white evidence. Thus, many different theories. Could it be someone living today ?? Maybe, - Maybe they are given supernatural power by God to breathe fire and not die. ?? It doesn't make sense to me how a non-Jewish person, let's say Elvis, or Abraham Lincoln would be received /heard by Jews. It is also my opinion and countless thousands of others that the AC will be Jewish - based on clues of scripture, but we don't have explicit proof from scripture.
Much of the "support" /evidence for the Revelation 12 sign, was based on the theory that Revelation has a special Chiastic structure, and because of this anomaly - Chapter 12 was not part of the normal chronological order, and a Parenthetical chapter. I think we did see a fulfillment of Revel 12:1-2, but even those advocates are seeing that now the constellations are out of Virgo, and the Dragon or Harpazo never happened. The point here is that some people say Revelation is not chronological - which makes sense, but there are multiple versions of what the order should be. Which structure, which chapters are parallel. Are the seven bowls and seven seals just different descriptions of the same events. I think we look at scripture, look at Israel and the political situation, the countries that are all in place for Ezekiel 38, 39, and we also look at weather events - earthquakes, tsunamis, and eclipses, etc, and the combination of all these things - coupled with my opinion that the Fig Tree was specifically referring to Israel and it tells me that we are in the birth pangs/ labor.
I lean toward the idea/[ It's my humble opinion] that the Feasts are inseparably linked to the Messiah, and that's the pattern we've seen - but when I consider all the things above, I don't think we can last until the next Feast of Trumpets.
Maranatha. Disciple4life.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 4, 2017 9:28:10 GMT -6
Thank you Disciple4life. Your point is valid and well taken that "the nature of the entire forum [Primarily, but not exclusively eschatology] involves lots of speculation/ guessing, and forming opinions - based on signs, rightly dividing scripture, and some would add dreams, etc."
As a result, there seems to be an ongoing effort by those in charge of this board to have everyone provide scriptural proof for their findings rather than mere speculation/guessing. Personally, I go to great effort to comply to that end; however, there are times when it comes down to some form of problem solving that is not grounded in scriptural fact.
Such is the case with Genesis 9:29 regarding my conclusion that the word "death" is being used as metaphor in that verse. Thus, I can not prove via scripture that Noah was translated without accepting the metaphor. I freely admit that.
To begin, I was trying to address the major point of Rev. Chapter 6-8 pertaining to the seven seals and what they have in common. The seals are clearly the dominant characteristic of these chapters, especially Chapter 6, so what is the purpose of the seven seals?
1) They follow Chapters 4 & 5, the resurrection chapters, thus they pertain to the resurrection.
2) The first four seals encapsulate the four horsemen so a conclusion can be drawn that all seven seals have something in common with the four horsemen.
3) The four horsemen link to the four angels of Chapter 8 thus the seven seals have some connection there.
The list goes on and on as to the purpose of the seven seals. Thus I decided to approach the subject another way. What is the very basis, the very foundation of the seven seals?
It is my conclusion that the very foundation of the seven seals is that everyone has been or is going to be translated. That is, the four horsemen are translated, number 5 (John) is translated (John 21:23), number 6, the 144,000 are translated (Rev. 7:4)), and the seventh is also translated (Dan. 12:1). However, this is impossible for me to prove without first developing that "death" in Genesis 9:29 is metaphor.
So I would not say that I am speculating or guessing, but I am doing research and trying to answer specific questions. Is the word "death" in Genesis 9:29 a metaphor? Since I have arrived at the conclusion pertaining to those being translated then the answer is yes; "death" in Gen. 9:29 is metaphor. That is not guessing but the findings of a detailed analysis.
With regard to the question asked of me: "Can you please explain how a mortal man becomes an angel?"
I answered "In the case of the angels of the Bible I think they are servants of Lord Jesus that have assigned powers to do their job."
Thus, I was clearly giving my opinion because I do not know the answer.
So I would not say that the basis of our work here is speculation or guessing but that of careful analysis to form a hypnosis and then trying to prove it. At least, in my opinion, that is what we should be doing.
Can you provide me with more information on the Chapter 12 sign? The first half of the Book of Revelation is clearly chronological. The problem comes in at Chapter 12 and I believe that I have solved that via my "moving the chapters" hypothesis. Again, not speculation or guessing but detailed analysis. So could you help me understand the Chapter 12 sign?
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jerryh
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Post by jerryh on Feb 17, 2018 18:00:35 GMT -6
I've mentioned this before but I think that section from 12:1 up to that first Beast rising is an overview and I believe the celestial sign of the planets lining up occurred also in 3 bc and around 70 ad. Either way, you can see Israel's history up to the return as them perpetually facing this Beast and maybe still running away from the flood which I see as persecution. But like a musical coda, the repeat is again at the sign in the heavens and that whole sequence now is a more detailed road map of where Israel and the child are. So at the sign last year we saw the king planet in the womb exactly 42 months, or a long gestation but normal birth. The child then in my opinion is literally Jesus. The other sections of Rev explain and expand where that child goes and I see a running narrative. He was hidden and I believe was going through things to be found worthy to open the seals. That's the period no one could be found because something had to be accomplished that wasn't already on the cross. IMO. So he unseals and the angels let the winds loose and next we see him on the horse conquering with a crown. Now look at the two witnesses. They both are killed and raise from the dead. IMO this Revelation is about the two advents, two olive trees, lamp stands.. the two witnesses are the two times God himself has and will live among us. Jesus was and is the first witness and IMO his main thing was preparing the Jews but also making a way for us as well. He passed the text books out and said when he gets back he'll take us into that mansion. The second witness will say exactly the same things as the first witness only this time we will actually see him as he is, meaning the 2nd witness will have a question and answer period. Problem was the first witness got his reputation trashed, which Jesus also predicted, so the second should be able to clear this up. But generally speaking, I think he's a bit more laid back and a servant, kinda like King David. So the tricky part for Israel is they've been waiting for someone like David but getting something markedly different. But that's the gist of the chronology as I see it with that second time through being when the second Beast arises. I would like to see what peeps have come up with with the bowls and trumpets and I expect it's also both an overview and a more detailed description. IMO
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jerryh
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Post by jerryh on Feb 17, 2018 18:12:25 GMT -6
One other thing.. I think the reason he couldn't be found, and why he had to become worthy to unseal the book was because the second advent he came as the Prodigal Son and being fully human, maybe he had some things he had to overcome. I think I can back it up that he knew our weaknesses having overcome for us. Maybe this is where he was doing that since it seems the first son had it a bit easier. But I also speculate maybe he also had to overcome in his first advent and when that dove landed, that was the same as those seals being popped open. IMO
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