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Post by cwood85 on Oct 20, 2017 22:06:53 GMT -6
Fair enough...I starting doing exactly what I didnt want to do, calculating days...Maybe we are in the beginning stages, maybe we are not. Either way I'm ok with it. This one I thing I am confident in, His appearance is soon! kjs - could the Micah 5 birth be the 9/23 sign? We are just easing into the Trib? Possible I believe it could point to it; but I do not believe the "birth" has happened. Micah 5 makes clear the Abandonment Ends at the time of the Birth, I see nothing "on earth" today that shows the Abandonment is over. Reason why I am strong Pre-Trib is because I believe the Rapture is the key event which God changes His focus from the Church to Israel. Micah is great telling us the when (at Birth) -- but fails to identify what Birth -- most of us (I included felt the Sign pointed to the Birth talked about in Micah) -- yet nothing including the sign -- actually shows the birth. Guesses - said on Sept 9th -- when Jupiter left the Womb Sept 23rd -- the primary sign Oct 13th -- Leaving Virgo So far nothing seems to have panned out. Yes because what else would make them jealous? They could have disasters, wars, you name it, but non of that would drive them to jealousy. They are not even really fighting for their Temple Mount, not yet anyways. |
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Post by Rick on Oct 20, 2017 22:20:49 GMT -6
Wow what a thread, makes me run down so many rabbit holes  . So many I want to replay to. I have been praying so much. One thing I would like to share is a revelation that has come to me through God. I have come to believe that the "caught up" (rapture) is not tied to any feast at all. I have been praying and talking to people about this for some time, Just yesterday right after talking to my mother about this very topic, this is where God lead me. Rather than trying to explain it all here, please allow me to share the video where God lead me..... it was so "Amazing" God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 |
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Post by Rick on Oct 20, 2017 22:26:52 GMT -6
I believe it could point to it; but I do not believe the "birth" has happened. Micah 5 makes clear the Abandonment Ends at the time of the Birth, I see nothing "on earth" today that shows the Abandonment is over. Reason why I am strong Pre-Trib is because I believe the Rapture is the key event which God changes His focus from the Church to Israel. Micah is great telling us the when (at Birth) -- but fails to identify what Birth -- most of us (I included felt the Sign pointed to the Birth talked about in Micah) -- yet nothing including the sign -- actually shows the birth. Guesses - said on Sept 9th -- when Jupiter left the Womb Sept 23rd -- the primary sign Oct 13th -- Leaving Virgo So far nothing seems to have panned out. There is one other guess: That the Rev 12:1-2 sign is a predictive model which points to what will soon occur. viz: the travailing of Zion. Have we seen this yet? , Hey brother.... We have not seen Zion in travail and as members of the body of Christ because of the "Catching up" we will not see her (Zion) in travail unless we see it from Heaven!  |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 20, 2017 22:32:29 GMT -6
There is one other guess: That the Rev 12:1-2 sign is a predictive model which points to what will soon occur. viz: the travailing of Zion. Have we seen this yet? , Hey brother.... We have not seen Zion in travail and as members of the body of Christ because of the "Catching up" we will not see her (Zion) in travail unless we see it from Heaven! Yes, we are assuming Isa 66:7 applies. Correct? |
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Post by Rick on Oct 20, 2017 22:33:57 GMT -6
Hello cwood85 , mike , bruce , others. For a moment, [I'm following Mike's reasoning - as a hypothetical measure - put aside the rapture for a minute] so we don't become myopic, and just try to look at the Tribulation period independent from the rapture. Let's try to think of it as one transparency sheet, ** the overlays in National treasure, and the Harpazo is another piece of plastic film. Check this out - It's been there all the time, I just couldn't see the trees because of the forest - What do you all think.?? I just offer it as a piece of the puzzle. ;-) ***Here's the reason we can't have the Tribulation start without a trigger event - [In other words, why it couldn't be possible that the Tribulation actually started on Sept 23, or Feast of Trumpets -- or say, July 4th.] Hold with me - we're all pretending/ that there is no rapture/ or it's at the end - and trying to isolate the Tribulation - as a separate overlay.
This verse says that the 2 witnesses will prophesy 1260 days - This is the entire first half of the Tribulation - no guessing, no speculation. While it's not 100% clear WHO they are, they will prophesy 1260 days and will shoot fire from their mouths and destroy anyone who opposes them. Wwhhhhhooooooaaaa.  Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html "Revelation 11:3-14. The Two Witnesses wearing sackcloth prophesy 1,260 days—a ministry which, if taken literally, would correspond with the forty-two months of judgments already described.
Obviously, these two witnesses are real people with miraculous powers like Moses and Elijah, here to preach and witness during the entire first half of the Tribulation. It may be through their witness that the 144,000 are saved and sent out preaching. As dreadful a time as this will be, God is faithful to provide plenty of gospel preaching to the nations."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if there were two dudes prophesying in Jerusalem, wearing sackcloth, and they have fire shooting out of their mouths, killing anyone who tries to harm them - Facebook and Twitter and Instagram would explode, and it would be on every newsfeed in the free world. What are your thoughts. ? ? I would be shouting from the rooftops that I and all my Pre-tribulation friends were wrong, and then it's time to start the huge batch of Spinach artichoke dip, and start stocking up on the canned goods. It would make everything much much simpler. Get out the calendar and the highlighter.
Can I just say I got a chuckle out of this lol!?! 🤣🙃😂 Because you make a good point and I learned something I was not entirely sure on. If I see some dudes shooting fire from their mouths, I will also be heading to the mountains in the smokies or out of this country. These are things I am looking for and will add to my research. I am pre trib, always have been even though most of my family has drifted away and are pre wrath/ only one second coming of Christ. I won't get into all of that here. I just want to make sure I have my ducks in a row the best I can, not relying on YouTube videos and the latter. But seriously though, thanks for the laugh and pointing out the obvious  I will read Revelation 11 again for clarification. and others, now you've gone and made me "chuckle". Promise me one thing, if your out in the mountains hunting and you happen to run into an elderly gentleman with very little hair, please don't shoot!  |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 20, 2017 22:35:23 GMT -6
Wow what a thread, makes me run down so many rabbit holes . So many I want to replay to. I have been praying so much. One thing I would like to share is a revelation that has come to me through God. I have come to believe that the "caught up" (rapture) is not tied to any feast at all. I have been praying and talking to people about this for some time, Just yesterday right after talking to my mother about this very topic, this is where God lead me. Rather than trying to explain it all here, please allow me to share the video where God lead me..... it was so "Amazing" ...God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 This is one of the hypotheses we have entertained here. |
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Post by Rick on Oct 20, 2017 22:35:30 GMT -6
yardstick , Hey brother.... We have not seen Zion in travail and as members of the body of Christ because of the "Catching up" we will not see her (Zion) in travail unless we see it from Heaven! Yes, we are assuming Isa 66:7 applies. Correct? , yes sir exactly! |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 20, 2017 22:45:08 GMT -6
cool deal D4L...I want to learn stuff like that too. Wasnt aware...Hey question for you or anyone who knows. In the the religion of Judaism I believe they recognize the "jewishness" comes from the mother not the father. In other words if your mom is Jewish and dad isn't its ok, youre still considered Jewish, but I want to say I remember researching this 20 yrs ago and its the opposite. No big deal, i can look into it later if i remember (or not) If I remember correctly it was Jewish Leadership POST-Jesus (ie, after Temple was destroyed) I think they started the Talmud (Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud) Which basically started several "Traditions" being currently kept by the Jewish people -- as important days / important rites / important readings ....) I believe up until the time of Jesus -- it was the Father Line -- which was important (at least all the genealogies -- only included the Father Line) During the Jewish diaspora it became hard to track the Father Line with certainty -- so they started tracking only the Mother Line. thanks for the clarification |
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Post by Rick on Oct 20, 2017 22:50:52 GMT -6
^^^^ That is exactly why I am doing the research I am doing. I am in the best way I can and know how, clearing my mind of pre conceived beliefs and regardless of what mine are clearing the slate, and just praying and focusing on scripture before doing my research. I want an answer or at least a hint, I do not want to hear mans view or opinions at this point ( not saying to disregard research at all and I explain more below ). I want Gods view and truth! It is in the bible and I am trying to be in a quiet environment when I read and pray and take down and organize the information I am researching. I know there are scholars out there, pastors, preachers who have studied the word for decades. I am not discrediting them or saying what they say is incorrect, because in all honesty I do not know. But while I am doing this research, my sole and entire focus is what does God say, what is His word? And most importantly asking if this leads me closer to Him? Because that is all I want the truth from Him and to learn as much as I can to be closer to Him.
I will post my results as I am focusing on sequence of events. Probably going to chart or map them. This is a great thread, thanks everyone Hello cwood85 , mike , bruce , others. For a moment, [I'm following Mike's reasoning - as a hypothetical measure - put aside the rapture for a minute] so we don't become myopic, and just try to look at the Tribulation period independent from the rapture. Let's try to think of it as one transparency sheet, ** the overlays in National treasure, and the Harpazo is another piece of plastic film. Check this out - It's been there all the time, I just couldn't see the trees because of the forest - What do you all think.?? I just offer it as a piece of the puzzle. ;-) ***Here's the reason we can't have the Tribulation start without a trigger event - [In other words, why it couldn't be possible that the Tribulation actually started on Sept 23, or Feast of Trumpets -- or say, July 4th.] Hold with me - we're all pretending/ that there is no rapture/ or it's at the end - and trying to isolate the Tribulation - as a separate overlay.
This verse says that the 2 witnesses will prophesy 1260 days - This is the entire first half of the Tribulation - no guessing, no speculation. While it's not 100% clear WHO they are, they will prophesy 1260 days and will shoot fire from their mouths and destroy anyone who opposes them. Wwhhhhhooooooaaaa. Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html "Revelation 11:3-14. The Two Witnesses wearing sackcloth prophesy 1,260 days—a ministry which, if taken literally, would correspond with the forty-two months of judgments already described.
Obviously, these two witnesses are real people with miraculous powers like Moses and Elijah, here to preach and witness during the entire first half of the Tribulation. It may be through their witness that the 144,000 are saved and sent out preaching. As dreadful a time as this will be, God is faithful to provide plenty of gospel preaching to the nations."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if there were two dudes prophesying in Jerusalem, wearing sackcloth, and they have fire shooting out of their mouths, killing anyone who tries to harm them - Facebook and Twitter and Instagram would explode, and it would be on every newsfeed in the free world. What are your thoughts. ? ? I would be shouting from the rooftops that I and all my Pre-tribulation friends were wrong, and then it's time to start the huge batch of Spinach artichoke dip, and start stocking up on the canned goods. It would make everything much much simpler. Get out the calendar and the highlighter.
, I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants...... I also understand why so many people believe that the two witnesses are Mosses, and Elijah. Although I have not done an in depth study on this, I do believe the two are Enoch and Elijah. God tells us that it is appointed unto man to die once, Mosses has already died once and God and Satan fought over his body. Enoch nor Elijah have not had a physical death. Just my thoughts |
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 20, 2017 23:26:44 GMT -6
Can I just say I got a chuckle out of this lol!?! 🤣🙃😂 Because you make a good point and I learned something I was not entirely sure on. If I see some dudes shooting fire from their mouths, I will also be heading to the mountains in the smokies or out of this country. These are things I am looking for and will add to my research. I am pre trib, always have been even though most of my family has drifted away and are pre wrath/ only one second coming of Christ. I won't get into all of that here. I just want to make sure I have my ducks in a row the best I can, not relying on YouTube videos and the latter. But seriously though, thanks for the laugh and pointing out the obvious I will read Revelation 11 again for clarification. and others, now you've gone and made me "chuckle". Promise me one thing, if your out in the mountains hunting and you happen to run into an elderly gentleman with very little hair, please don't shoot! Lol no shooting the locals in the mountains. Some of the nicest and most hard working people you will meet. Good with the land too. And lots of moonshine for ummm fuel for fire and the like  I will tell you a little story. One where I really think the presence of God was all around. I felt Him everywhere down there, all around me. Through the locals and how they handled loosing everything. He is there in destruction, but not in the looming fearful sense. He was comforting and gentle, encouraging and kind. I went and visited Gatlinburg, TN this early spring after the fires. My family shares a timeshare down there every year and it was completely destroyed. Most of our resort was. We had seen photographs on social media of the area and the damage. It was so bad. The news barely covered it. Thousands of people lost their homes, vacation spots that were passed down from generation to generation, businesses burnt to nothing but ash. It was a beautiful place. It will take many years for the natural beauty that was once there to come back. My husband and his parents where not sure of what to expect when we went down there. The downtown area was spared, the fire only staying less than 50 ft from the edges of town. Many outer historical buildings and homes where gone. Over 75% of the housing was gone. Our mouths hung open as we drove through eerie burnt Black Forest. It was surreal and sad. Then we turned to go up the little quaint road that led to what was left of our resort. Every spring when we visited we would be surrounded by beautiful pink wild roses growing upon both sides of the road mixed with honeysuckle blooming in May. If heaven had a smell, I imagine it would be that mixed with a little mountain pine. Little mountain cabins and sleepy motels dotted the road alongside a beautiful roaring river. It was breathtaking. I have been going there for 15 years and I never get bored or tired of visiting. My honeymoon was there, both our children have been going since they were infants. We look forward to it every year. As we turned down the road leading to our resort, we started weeping. Nobody talked, just silent tears streaming down our faces as we drove up a road that now looked like a war had happened and then was bulldozed completely flat on both sides. Not one building remained. The trees were strangled, twisted, and charred poles with some scraggly branches here and there on them. The natural foliage was gone. The fire burned so hot, it melted the road in places. The only thing that was left was a few foundations that were built of stacked stone. An old stone baptist church from the 1920's burned. This is how it was everywhere surrounding the town. Whole sides of mountains were burned to the rock. I was so angry for the people that lived there. This was brushed off by the media and most of the government as no big deal. Nothing to see here... But the people, although sad and still shaken at their loses (you could see it in their faces) did not complain. Everyone was working hard, rebuilding, helping, and being of good service. Some talked of loosing everything they owned, but they where not depressed. Just ready to rebuild and thanking the Lord that they were alive and their families safe. Dolly Parton dontated so much to the people and town to help. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. I understood why the media nore the government wasn't covering much. It wasn't needed. They had fully put their faith in God that He would provide and take care of them. He did just that. Everywhere you went, people were painting, building new roofs, tearing down burned up buildings with a peace and calm I have never witnessed before. No standing around waiting for a paycheck or crying for help and not lifting a finger. They just had faith and it led them along and God took care of the rest. It was a very humbling experience. Well sorry to derail, I guess I have a soft spot for those mountains and the people there |
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Post by linda on Oct 20, 2017 23:48:00 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing that, cwood85. That really breaks my heart, but I'm really glad that the people there are trusting God and rebuilding their lives back. Fires really hit close to home as we've had so many bad ones in Oregon this year. They seem to get worse every year. It's really heartbreaking to see acres and acres of blackened woods. But it's also amazing how fast it grows back in a few years. The recovery is not so fast, unfortunately, for people who lose everything in these fires. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 21, 2017 1:28:51 GMT -6
I think you got me D4L...if the two witnesses (whoever they may be) are on the scene for the first half of the Trib, then they'd be here. Are we sure they are here for the first half? Just sayin Hello Captain, I'm just trying to sort things out and trying to be a Berean. I could totally be wrong. Man, oh man, I stopped counting how many times I was wrong. Here's the two things that come to mind - ( What do you think, Mike and others??)
1. Of course, we always look what other passages of scripture talk about this. Compare and cross reference. This corresponds to the exact day count that was given in Daniel for the first half. 1260 days. 2. The Godzilla brothers - whoever they are exactly - will be prophesying/ preaching and then the 144,000 Jews are sealed. As a result of their testimony, and also after the AC is revealed and their eyes are open at the half way point. I can't see a way that they are preaching and prophesying in the last half - But the biggest thing being the last half is 1290 days, as far as I remember.
www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html This is one link, - you have to weigh it. I think they explain it well.
"The two witnesses will prophesy for a period of 1,260 days or 42 months. Some believe this will take place in the first half of the tribulation period, whereas, some Bible scholars view the two witnesses as prophesying in the last half of Daniel’s Seventieth Week. I believe that the 144,000 Jews will be converted through the preaching of these two witnesses during the first half of the tribulation period. The preaching of the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) by the 144,000 will result in the salvation of the blood- washed multitude of Gentile believers (Rev. 7:9-17) who attribute their salvation to God and the Lamb and are a direct result of the ministry of these 144,000 Jewish missionaries."
The other point was the first source (link below) that made the light go on - as to how we can know 100% that The Tribulation did not / could not have started in July 4th, or Labor day, [That there has to be a Trigger event - some catalyst that lights the fuse.] bible.org/illustration/events-tribulation-period "Obviously, these two witnesses are real people with miraculous powers like Moses and Elijah, here to preach and witness during the entire first half of the Tribulation. It may be through their witness that the 144,000 are saved and sent out preaching. As dreadful a time as this will be, God is faithful to provide plenty of gospel preaching to the nations."
I'm not saying the Godzilla Brothers are the trigger event, - I think that event is the 7 year treaty, but simply that all the world will know that the tribulation has started. Could be Mid -Tribulation rapture, but I lean pre-Trib. Regarding the 2 Witnesses, does anyone see - given our 1260 day count, how it can be in the second half??
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 21, 2017 1:31:51 GMT -6
cwood85 and others, now you've gone and made me "chuckle". Promise me one thing, if your out in the mountains hunting and you happen to run into an elderly gentleman with very little hair, please don't shoot! Lol no shooting the locals in the mountains. Some of the nicest and most hard working people you will meet. Good with the land too. And lots of moonshine for ummm fuel for fire and the like I will tell you a little story. One where I really think the presence of God was all around. I felt Him everywhere down there, all around me. Through the locals and how they handled loosing everything. He is there in destruction, but not in the looming fearful sense. He was comforting and gentle, encouraging and kind. I went and visited Gatlinburg, TN this early spring after the fires. My family shares a timeshare down there every year and it was completely destroyed. Most of our resort was. We had seen photographs on social media of the area and the damage. It was so bad. The news barely covered it. Thousands of people lost their homes, vacation spots that were passed down from generation to generation, businesses burnt to nothing but ash. It was a beautiful place. It will take many years for the natural beauty that was once there to come back. My husband and his parents where not sure of what to expect when we went down there. The downtown area was spared, the fire only staying less than 50 ft from the edges of town. Many outer historical buildings and homes where gone. Over 75% of the housing was gone. Our mouths hung open as we drove through eerie burnt Black Forest. It was surreal and sad. Then we turned to go up the little quaint road that led to what was left of our resort. Every spring when we visited we would be surrounded by beautiful pink wild roses growing upon both sides of the road mixed with honeysuckle blooming in May. If heaven had a smell, I imagine it would be that mixed with a little mountain pine. Little mountain cabins and sleepy motels dotted the road alongside a beautiful roaring river. It was breathtaking. I have been going there for 15 years and I never get bored or tired of visiting. My honeymoon was there, both our children have been going since they were infants. We look forward to it every year. As we turned down the road leading to our resort, we started weeping. Nobody talked, just silent tears streaming down our faces as we drove up a road that now looked like a war had happened and then was bulldozed completely flat on both sides. Not one building remained. The trees were strangled, twisted, and charred poles with some scraggly branches here and there on them. The natural foliage was gone. The fire burned so hot, it melted the road in places. The only thing that was left was a few foundations that were built of stacked stone. An old stone baptist church from the 1920's burned. This is how it was everywhere surrounding the town. Whole sides of mountains were burned to the rock. I was so angry for the people that lived there. This was brushed off by the media and most of the government as no big deal. Nothing to see here... But the people, although sad and still shaken at their loses (you could see it in their faces) did not complain. Everyone was working hard, rebuilding, helping, and being of good service. Some talked of loosing everything they owned, but they where not depressed. Just ready to rebuild and thanking the Lord that they were alive and their families safe. Dolly Parton dontated so much to the people and town to help. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. I understood why the media nore the government wasn't covering much. It wasn't needed. They had fully put their faith in God that He would provide and take care of them. He did just that. Everywhere you went, people were painting, building new roofs, tearing down burned up buildings with a peace and calm I have never witnessed before. No standing around waiting for a paycheck or crying for help and not lifting a finger. They just had faith and it led them along and God took care of the rest. It was a very humbling experience. Well sorry to derail, I guess I have a soft spot for those mountains and the people there This is my people - East Tennessee. About 20 miles from here. Foothills of the Smokies. All my family, parents and siblings and their kids settled here. 1 home is East Tennessee, the other home is NW Poland. |
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Post by mike on Oct 21, 2017 6:32:28 GMT -6
D4L I know the two witnesses are on the scene for 1260 days or 42 months. Where in the word does it specifically tell us they are in the first or later 3.5 yrs?
I mean it does seem to me that it makes sense with all the 3.5 yrs being thrown around that they would logically be in the first portion, less convincing in the second. No place that I'm aware of does it say either.
My point is one of curiosity and thinking differently than we've always thought. I'm perfectly fine with someone saying "Mike it says so right here in Black and white, stop the nonsense".
Look at it this way (humor me) let's say we can calculate the 7 yr period to begin November 3, 2017. Why can't the two witnesses come into play March 2019 (or some other date, perhaps but even on a feast day) and prophesy 3.5 yrs from there?
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Post by Natalie on Oct 21, 2017 9:08:20 GMT -6
What makes the most sense to me is that the two witnesses would be prophesying the first half because they are in Jerusalem...they were sent to the Jews. When the Jews flee at the setting up of the Abomination, then who would the witnesses be prophesying to? My thought, and I could be wrong, is that Antichrist won't be able to do anything in Jerusalem until those two are gone.
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. So many I want to replay to. I have been praying so much. One thing I would like to share is a revelation that has come to me through God. I have come to believe that the "caught up" (rapture) is not tied to any feast at all. I have been praying and talking to people about this for some time, Just yesterday right after talking to my mother about this very topic, this is where God lead me.
Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. 
I will read Revelation 11 again for clarification.
