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Post by nana on Oct 20, 2017 11:56:45 GMT -6
Wow! A lot of posts to catch up on since I last checked in! :-) Mike, it seems like you were questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I think it's fine to question some of these doctrines, especially those that pertain to future events, but I remain convinced that the pre-trib rapture makes the most sense of the various Biblical texts. Nothing has happened yet this fall to make me change my mind about that. As Linda made reference to, the word apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3 could be a reference to the pre-trib rapture. This view is not without controversy, but I have studied it quite a bit over the years and I find it to be the most compelling interpretation of the term, though I have a lot of respect for those who would disagree. Some compelling essays by credentialed scholars have been written on the topic. Another reason to believe the rapture is pre-trib is the layout of the Book of Revelation. I also believe the best explanation of the 24 elders in Chapters 4 and 5 are that they are the church. Though this is also not without controversy, Revelation 5:9 has the elders proclaiming "Thou (Jesus) hast redeemed us". Jesus didn't redeem angels, he redeemed man, so these must be humans in heaven proclaiming this, and they are in heaven prior to the breaking of the first seal in chapter 6. This also strongly suggests a pre-trib rapture. That's one reason I have a hard time with theories claiming various seals have been broken. I don't think the seals will break until we are in the throne room proclaiming that Christ is worthy to break the seals. Then He will, then the four horsemen of the apocalypse will ride forth and the Tribulation will begin. I have often wondered if the 24 are some of the prophets and maybe the apostles too?
And I believe the scroll is the title deed to planet earth.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 20, 2017 12:01:36 GMT -6
But MikeTaft , my earlier point is (big) IF the Trib had started 9/23 (humor me), we the bride aren't really beaten yet are we? Numerous disasters, with minimal casualties. This "I'm pre-trib" well "I'm pre-wrath", but the Bible tells me "post-wrath" debate will continue. I think there is a ton of validity on identifying the 70th aside from our Rapture timing biases. Throw those out for a minute, think outside the box of what we've all heard before. *Disclaimer - I am not saying God will not perform His word, but maybe our views are askew and we don't recognize it. Imminency has been so widely held for so long. Consider that in the process. Why does Gods shift to Israel have to be a hard/fast stop with a cataclysmic event like the rapture? Why can't it be gradually building like tension in tectonic plates? I am in the best way I can and know how, clearing my mind of pre conceived beliefs and regardless of what mine are clearing the slate, and just praying and focusing on scripture before doing my research. I want an answer or at least a hint, I do not want to hear mans view or opinions at this point ( not saying to disregard research at all and I explain more below ). I want Gods view and truth! It is in the bible and I am trying to be in a quiet environment when I read and pray and take down and organize the information I am researching. I know there are scholars out there, pastors, preachers who have studied the word for decades. I am not discrediting them or saying what they say is incorrect, because in all honesty I do not know. But while I am doing this research, my sole and entire focus is what does God say, what is His word? And most importantly asking if this leads me closer to Him? Because that is all I want the truth from Him and to learn as much as I can to be closer to Him.
I will post my results as I am focusing on sequence of events. Probably going to chart or map them. This is a great thread, thanks everyone  |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 20, 2017 12:55:27 GMT -6
^^^^D4L, just to be accurate (not nitpicky brother, i promise)...Ivanka converted because of Kushner, he was/is the Jew she was not but is now. Yes, my brother. You are 100% correct. I didn't take it that you were being nitpicky. ;-) It's important to be accurate.!!
If someone converts - Judaism ( not sure if all branches) but some -- have the law/ rule that the convert is then considered to have all the rights of the person born Jewish. I was basically making the point that it's interesting that all the sons happened to marry Jewish women.
I also agree 100% mike, that it's good to put aside our pre-conceived notions for a minute. I can do that. I've had one pastor who is Amillennial and another who is Mid-Trib. It goes back to another point that even those who hold a Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib, **for the most part, believe that there will be some Trigger - some catalyst that starts the clock, so to speak. Something that starts Daniels Day count for the Tribulation.
For a moment, just for discussion, let's pretend that we had solid proof in the Old and New Testament, that proved a Post Tribulation rapture - That all the feasts will be fulfilled in the same year at the end -- There will be a Temple early on. A real, physical, stone and mortar temple with a real room, "holy place" for real sacrifices. I get the fact that our bodies are the temple, but we have to realize that the Jews will build a real temple, and have real sacrifices. This is why Jerusalem was crucial. They won't build a Temple in Haifa. One theory is that they already have Modular parts - - [Think Lego construction] that can be brought in and quickly assembled. Even this takes time - foundations laid, excavation work done and assuming they use pre-manufactured modular parts, it would take months. I don't see any construction happening without the peace treaty. Imagine the uproar and terrorist threats if they just bring in the heavy excavating equipment and start jack-hammering on the temple mount. But let's pretend that they worked a secret deal behind closed doors, and the rapture happens at the end. There has to be some huge nuclear war, or major Russian/Israel conflict or major world natural disaster or there is no need to have the AC come to power- We have Macron, Merkel, Netanyahu and Trump. Even assuming there is no rapture at all - That Christ just comes to Mt of Olives at the end, then we would still see huge markers that the Trib had started. - Treaty signed - Temple construction started - Nuclear bomb, or some major missile launch by Russia, China or Iran, that Involves Israel - Someone appears who proclaims to be the AC. - OR some ginormous natural disaster - like a meteor crashing into earth, or the Mega quake/ Tsunami, causing mass casualties and chaos, Or some combination of these - would tell us that the tribulation had began. It would have to be something so big, that the world would notice. Not an eclipse in the US, or an earthquake in Mexico.
It's a great thread, guys and gals. ;-)
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Post by kjs on Oct 20, 2017 13:04:53 GMT -6
Fair enough...I starting doing exactly what I didnt want to do, calculating days...Maybe we are in the beginning stages, maybe we are not. Either way I'm ok with it. This one I thing I am confident in, His appearance is soon! kjs - could the Micah 5 birth be the 9/23 sign? We are just easing into the Trib? Possible I believe it could point to it; but I do not believe the "birth" has happened. Micah 5 makes clear the Abandonment Ends at the time of the Birth, I see nothing "on earth" today that shows the Abandonment is over. Reason why I am strong Pre-Trib is because I believe the Rapture is the key event which God changes His focus from the Church to Israel. Micah is great telling us the when (at Birth) -- but fails to identify what Birth -- most of us (I included felt the Sign pointed to the Birth talked about in Micah) -- yet nothing including the sign -- actually shows the birth. Guesses - said on Sept 9th -- when Jupiter left the Womb Sept 23rd -- the primary sign Oct 13th -- Leaving Virgo So far nothing seems to have panned out. |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 20, 2017 13:10:52 GMT -6
Fair enough...I starting doing exactly what I didnt want to do, calculating days...Maybe we are in the beginning stages, maybe we are not. Either way I'm ok with it. This one I thing I am confident in, His appearance is soon! kjs - could the Micah 5 birth be the 9/23 sign? We are just easing into the Trib? Possible I believe it could point to it; but I do not believe the "birth" has happened. Micah 5 makes clear the Abandonment Ends at the time of the Birth, I see nothing "on earth" today that shows the Abandonment is over. Reason why I am strong Pre-Trib is because I believe the Rapture is the key event which God changes His focus from the Church to Israel. Micah is great telling us the when (at Birth) -- but fails to identify what Birth -- most of us (I included felt the Sign pointed to the Birth talked about in Micah) -- yet nothing including the sign -- actually shows the birth. Guesses - said on Sept 9th -- when Jupiter left the Womb Sept 23rd -- the primary sign Oct 13th -- Leaving Virgo So far nothing seems to have panned out. There is one other guess: That the Rev 12:1-2 sign is a predictive model which points to what will soon occur. viz: the travailing of Zion. Have we seen this yet? |
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 13:15:35 GMT -6
cool deal D4L...I want to learn stuff like that too. Wasnt aware...Hey question for you or anyone who knows.
In the the religion of Judaism I believe they recognize the "jewishness" comes from the mother not the father. In other words if your mom is Jewish and dad isn't its ok, youre still considered Jewish, but I want to say I remember researching this 20 yrs ago and its the opposite. No big deal, i can look into it later if i remember (or not)
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Post by yardstick on Oct 20, 2017 13:20:53 GMT -6
cool deal D4L...I want to learn stuff like that too. Wasnt aware...Hey question for you or anyone who knows. In the the religion of Judaism I believe they recognize the "jewishness" comes from the mother not the father. In other words if your mom is Jewish and dad isn't its ok, youre still considered Jewish, but I want to say I remember researching this 20 yrs ago and its the opposite. No big deal, i can look into it later if i remember (or not) IIRC, it is supposed to be patrilineal, but the jews have made it matrilineal. I suspect this might have been the result of their dabbling in 'mother earth goddess' religions before being taken off to babylon and assyria. But it might well have crept in during the diaspora. Particularly in spain with the sephardim. You have noticed the matrilineal leanings of the hispanic speaking people with respect to how their family names work, right? |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 20, 2017 13:29:08 GMT -6
cool deal D4L...I want to learn stuff like that too. Wasnt aware...Hey question for you or anyone who knows. In the the religion of Judaism I believe they recognize the "jewishness" comes from the mother not the father. In other words if your mom is Jewish and dad isn't its ok, youre still considered Jewish, but I want to say I remember researching this 20 yrs ago and its the opposite. No big deal, i can look into it later if i remember (or not) You are correct, sir. At least I know with some branches of Judaism. Maybe not all -- Not sure which ones. I'll do some digging. But this is why Ivanka had to convert. Jared being Jewish but not the Mom, would mean that the kids are not Jewish.
There is a lot of evidence, including Messianic Rabbi's that supports the notion that this is why we have two genealogies in the Gospels. One is tracing Mary's lineage, and one is tracing Joseph's connections to the Messiah. Another discrepancy is explained by the fact that there was no word in Hebrew for Father in Law.
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Post by kjs on Oct 20, 2017 13:30:03 GMT -6
cool deal D4L...I want to learn stuff like that too. Wasnt aware...Hey question for you or anyone who knows. In the the religion of Judaism I believe they recognize the "jewishness" comes from the mother not the father. In other words if your mom is Jewish and dad isn't its ok, youre still considered Jewish, but I want to say I remember researching this 20 yrs ago and its the opposite. No big deal, i can look into it later if i remember (or not) If I remember correctly it was Jewish Leadership POST-Jesus (ie, after Temple was destroyed) I think they started the Talmud (Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud) Which basically started several "Traditions" being currently kept by the Jewish people -- as important days / important rites / important readings ....) I believe up until the time of Jesus -- it was the Father Line -- which was important (at least all the genealogies -- only included the Father Line) During the Jewish diaspora it became hard to track the Father Line with certainty -- so they started tracking only the Mother Line. |
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 15:27:20 GMT -6
Ahhh I see kjs...see I had this discussion in like 1999 or so with my former brother-in-law who was a Labovich. Now it makes sense why they said the mother. I also thought the Talmud was around like 700BC, no? Edit - as usual, you're right like 200 'CE' |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 20, 2017 16:41:28 GMT -6
^^^^ That is exactly why I am doing the research I am doing. I am in the best way I can and know how, clearing my mind of pre conceived beliefs and regardless of what mine are clearing the slate, and just praying and focusing on scripture before doing my research. I want an answer or at least a hint, I do not want to hear mans view or opinions at this point ( not saying to disregard research at all and I explain more below ). I want Gods view and truth! It is in the bible and I am trying to be in a quiet environment when I read and pray and take down and organize the information I am researching. I know there are scholars out there, pastors, preachers who have studied the word for decades. I am not discrediting them or saying what they say is incorrect, because in all honesty I do not know. But while I am doing this research, my sole and entire focus is what does God say, what is His word? And most importantly asking if this leads me closer to Him? Because that is all I want the truth from Him and to learn as much as I can to be closer to Him.
I will post my results as I am focusing on sequence of events. Probably going to chart or map them. This is a great thread, thanks everyone Hello cwood85 , mike , bruce , others. For a moment, [I'm following Mike's reasoning - as a hypothetical measure - put aside the rapture for a minute] so we don't become myopic, and just try to look at the Tribulation period independent from the rapture. Let's try to think of it as one transparency sheet, ** the overlays in National treasure, and the Harpazo is another piece of plastic film. Check this out - It's been there all the time, I just couldn't see the trees because of the forest - What do you all think.?? I just offer it as a piece of the puzzle. ;-) ***Here's the reason we can't have the Tribulation start without a trigger event - [In other words, why it couldn't be possible that the Tribulation actually started on Sept 23, or Feast of Trumpets -- or say, July 4th.] Hold with me - we're all pretending/ that there is no rapture/ or it's at the end - and trying to isolate the Tribulation - as a separate overlay.
This verse says that the 2 witnesses will prophesy 1260 days - This is the entire first half of the Tribulation - no guessing, no speculation. While it's not 100% clear WHO they are, they will prophesy 1260 days and will shoot fire from their mouths and destroy anyone who opposes them. Wwhhhhhooooooaaaa.  Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html "Revelation 11:3-14. The Two Witnesses wearing sackcloth prophesy 1,260 days—a ministry which, if taken literally, would correspond with the forty-two months of judgments already described.
Obviously, these two witnesses are real people with miraculous powers like Moses and Elijah, here to preach and witness during the entire first half of the Tribulation. It may be through their witness that the 144,000 are saved and sent out preaching. As dreadful a time as this will be, God is faithful to provide plenty of gospel preaching to the nations."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if there were two dudes prophesying in Jerusalem, wearing sackcloth, and they have fire shooting out of their mouths, killing anyone who tries to harm them - Facebook and Twitter and Instagram would explode, and it would be on every newsfeed in the free world. What are your thoughts. ? ? I would be shouting from the rooftops that I and all my Pre-tribulation friends were wrong, and then it's time to start the huge batch of Spinach artichoke dip, and start stocking up on the canned goods. It would make everything much much simpler. Get out the calendar and the highlighter.
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 20, 2017 16:53:34 GMT -6
^^^^ That is exactly why I am doing the research I am doing. I am in the best way I can and know how, clearing my mind of pre conceived beliefs and regardless of what mine are clearing the slate, and just praying and focusing on scripture before doing my research. I want an answer or at least a hint, I do not want to hear mans view or opinions at this point ( not saying to disregard research at all and I explain more below ). I want Gods view and truth! It is in the bible and I am trying to be in a quiet environment when I read and pray and take down and organize the information I am researching. I know there are scholars out there, pastors, preachers who have studied the word for decades. I am not discrediting them or saying what they say is incorrect, because in all honesty I do not know. But while I am doing this research, my sole and entire focus is what does God say, what is His word? And most importantly asking if this leads me closer to Him? Because that is all I want the truth from Him and to learn as much as I can to be closer to Him.
I will post my results as I am focusing on sequence of events. Probably going to chart or map them. This is a great thread, thanks everyone Hello cwood85 , mike , bruce , others. For a moment, [I'm following Mike's reasoning - as a hypothetical measure - put aside the rapture for a minute] so we don't become myopic, and just try to look at the Tribulation period independent from the rapture. Let's try to think of it as one transparency sheet, ** the overlays in National treasure, and the Harpazo is another piece of plastic film. Check this out - It's been there all the time, I just couldn't see the trees because of the forest - What do you all think.?? I just offer it as a piece of the puzzle. ;-) ***Here's the reason we can't have the Tribulation start without a trigger event - [In other words, why it couldn't be possible that the Tribulation actually started on Sept 23, or Feast of Trumpets -- or say, July 4th.] Hold with me - we're all pretending/ that there is no rapture/ or it's at the end - and trying to isolate the Tribulation - as a separate overlay.
This verse says that the 2 witnesses will prophesy 1260 days - This is the entire first half of the Tribulation - no guessing, no speculation. While it's not 100% clear WHO they are, they will prophesy 1260 days and will shoot fire from their mouths and destroy anyone who opposes them. Wwhhhhhooooooaaaa. Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html "Revelation 11:3-14. The Two Witnesses wearing sackcloth prophesy 1,260 days—a ministry which, if taken literally, would correspond with the forty-two months of judgments already described.
Obviously, these two witnesses are real people with miraculous powers like Moses and Elijah, here to preach and witness during the entire first half of the Tribulation. It may be through their witness that the 144,000 are saved and sent out preaching. As dreadful a time as this will be, God is faithful to provide plenty of gospel preaching to the nations."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if there were two dudes prophesying in Jerusalem, wearing sackcloth, and they have fire shooting out of their mouths, killing anyone who tries to harm them - Facebook and Twitter and Instagram would explode, and it would be on every newsfeed in the free world. What are your thoughts. ? ? I would be shouting from the rooftops that I and all my Pre-tribulation friends were wrong, and then it's time to start the huge batch of Spinach artichoke dip, and start stocking up on the canned goods. It would make everything much much simpler. Get out the calendar and the highlighter.
I would be mapping out routes into the mountains of West Virginia. Would need to invest in survival gear, but hunting I'm well covered. Mike Taft gone Bear Grills  ! In all seriousness I have to agree that the two witnesses would be catching the worlds eye, so much so that they'll be partying when they are assasinated by the anti-Christ goon squad! Also I have yet to see a peace treaty with Israel. Right now it seems things are going in the opposite direction than peace. |
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 17:34:06 GMT -6
I think you got me D4L...if the two witnesses (whoever they may be) are on the scene for the first half of the Trib, then they'd be here.
Are we sure they are here for the first half? Just sayin
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 20, 2017 17:40:07 GMT -6
^^^^ That is exactly why I am doing the research I am doing. I am in the best way I can and know how, clearing my mind of pre conceived beliefs and regardless of what mine are clearing the slate, and just praying and focusing on scripture before doing my research. I want an answer or at least a hint, I do not want to hear mans view or opinions at this point ( not saying to disregard research at all and I explain more below ). I want Gods view and truth! It is in the bible and I am trying to be in a quiet environment when I read and pray and take down and organize the information I am researching. I know there are scholars out there, pastors, preachers who have studied the word for decades. I am not discrediting them or saying what they say is incorrect, because in all honesty I do not know. But while I am doing this research, my sole and entire focus is what does God say, what is His word? And most importantly asking if this leads me closer to Him? Because that is all I want the truth from Him and to learn as much as I can to be closer to Him.
I will post my results as I am focusing on sequence of events. Probably going to chart or map them. This is a great thread, thanks everyone Hello cwood85 , mike , bruce , others. For a moment, [I'm following Mike's reasoning - as a hypothetical measure - put aside the rapture for a minute] so we don't become myopic, and just try to look at the Tribulation period independent from the rapture. Let's try to think of it as one transparency sheet, ** the overlays in National treasure, and the Harpazo is another piece of plastic film. Check this out - It's been there all the time, I just couldn't see the trees because of the forest - What do you all think.?? I just offer it as a piece of the puzzle. ;-) ***Here's the reason we can't have the Tribulation start without a trigger event - [In other words, why it couldn't be possible that the Tribulation actually started on Sept 23, or Feast of Trumpets -- or say, July 4th.] Hold with me - we're all pretending/ that there is no rapture/ or it's at the end - and trying to isolate the Tribulation - as a separate overlay.
This verse says that the 2 witnesses will prophesy 1260 days - This is the entire first half of the Tribulation - no guessing, no speculation. While it's not 100% clear WHO they are, they will prophesy 1260 days and will shoot fire from their mouths and destroy anyone who opposes them. Wwhhhhhooooooaaaa. Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. www.prophecyforum.com/witnesses.html "Revelation 11:3-14. The Two Witnesses wearing sackcloth prophesy 1,260 days—a ministry which, if taken literally, would correspond with the forty-two months of judgments already described.
Obviously, these two witnesses are real people with miraculous powers like Moses and Elijah, here to preach and witness during the entire first half of the Tribulation. It may be through their witness that the 144,000 are saved and sent out preaching. As dreadful a time as this will be, God is faithful to provide plenty of gospel preaching to the nations."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if there were two dudes prophesying in Jerusalem, wearing sackcloth, and they have fire shooting out of their mouths, killing anyone who tries to harm them - Facebook and Twitter and Instagram would explode, and it would be on every newsfeed in the free world. What are your thoughts. ? ? I would be shouting from the rooftops that I and all my Pre-tribulation friends were wrong, and then it's time to start the huge batch of Spinach artichoke dip, and start stocking up on the canned goods. It would make everything much much simpler. Get out the calendar and the highlighter.
Can I just say I got a chuckle out of this lol!?! 🤣🙃😂 Because you make a good point and I learned something I was not entirely sure on. If I see some dudes shooting fire from their mouths, I will also be heading to the mountains in the smokies or out of this country. These are things I am looking for and will add to my research. I am pre trib, always have been even though most of my family has drifted away and are pre wrath/ only one second coming of Christ. I won't get into all of that here. I just want to make sure I have my ducks in a row the best I can, not relying on YouTube videos and the latter. But seriously though, thanks for the laugh and pointing out the obvious  I will read Revelation 11 again for clarification. |
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Post by Rick on Oct 20, 2017 22:06:21 GMT -6
The chapter seems to indicate 1. Falling away - if we look around we could say this country and most others have fallen away. We've removed God from probably every aspect of life, government, morality everything. 2. Does the man of sin have to be revealed here? There is a conjunction "and" connecting the verses. 3. Jump a few verses to 7 "iniquity is already in high gear. Ever looked up "sin, transgression & iniquity", lemme know what you find, I find it interesting. Next "he that restraineth taken out of the way" (restraineth, love the KJV) what is being restrained? cwood85 , I wanna see if we're on the same page with some responses Hey mike , Here is a short clip by Chuck Missler that should explain much better the very questions you ask. Hope this helps brother. When the church is gone the restrainer will be gone  |
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Most speculate Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was a Gentile ;-) Hmmmm. Two who did not see death, but were 'translated'. 
! In all seriousness I have to agree that the two witnesses would be catching the worlds eye, so much so that they'll be partying when they are assasinated by the anti-Christ goon squad! Also I have yet to see a peace treaty with Israel. Right now it seems things are going in the opposite direction than peace. 
I will read Revelation 11 again for clarification.
