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Post by whatif on Oct 19, 2017 23:10:13 GMT -6
...we overlook the possibility of the 70th week already being started. I mean why can't it already have begun? Where do we get that the rapture precisely kicks off 7 yrs.? Why didn't the Great Sign start the 70th week? This is something that I've been contemplating, as well, mike, especially as the American eclipses are to be 7 years apart. The only thing that keeps me hesitant as I ponder it is the idea that the 7 years would be started by the covenant with many, which we haven't seen yet. But what if the Revelation 12 sign in the heavens is indeed the starting of all the events that we find in the Book of Revelation? I keep wondering if perhaps this waiting period we've been in since 23 September 2017 is simply the time of the events in heaven described in Revelation 5 as Jesus prepares to open the first seal of the scroll. If Revelation 12:1-2 marked the day when the Book of Revelation was to start unfolding, we have so many things to watch for coming up in our world--perhaps all the events of the 7 seals. It may be that the 7 years will start in the time of the 1st Trumpet Judgment, with the Rapture occurring in the time of the 6th/7th Seal. |
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 19, 2017 23:20:48 GMT -6
mike I see you got a promotion.  Congratulations! From what I can tell from the word apostasy used in the Greek is not so much indicating the rapture, here is the strongs Greek definition: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." It is only used twice in the Bible. Here is the other verse, Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. The word FORSAKE in this verse is the same Greek word. This verse is describing a mindset change. To no longer circumcise. To change from past beliefs or mindset to a new or different one. What is the church doing today? Falling away from the word of God. Turning away and forsaking it. The way the word is used and what is means to me, does not mean a physical leaving, but a mental one from a previous state of mind. EDIT: Opps, quoted the wrong thread linda |
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 19, 2017 23:39:21 GMT -6
Ya know bruce, the amount of time and threads we've been talking about how the FoT had to be the rapture and coincided so close to the Great Sign we overlook the possibility of the 70th week already being started. I mean why can't it already have begun? Where do we get that the rapture precisely kicks off 7 yrs.? Why didn't the Great Sign start the 70th week? mikeAlso in agreement with this. Where does it say all hell will break loose the day, or first few months of the 70th week? It does not, not at least to my understanding... Things did get pretty bad right after the eclipse, that was apparent even to non believers. It think that was a warning of things to come, not so much a 40 days of just repentance. Which usually when disasters like that strike, more people are brought to the Lord. But I think that this needs to be looked into more. I am in the process of mapping out every rapture verse and reference that I know of in the Bible. If anyone wants to chime in on that or look over anything that I may have missed, please feel free to help out. 👉🏻👉🏻👉🏻EDIT💡 THE MORE COLLECTIVE THINKING WE CAN GET TOGETHER ON THIS KIND OF STUDYING THE BETTER. WHATEVER VERSES YOU KNOW OF, PLEASE LIST BELOW. Thank you |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 20, 2017 1:10:15 GMT -6
Ya know bruce , the amount of time and threads we've been talking about how the FoT had to be the rapture and coincided so close to the Great Sign we overlook the possibility of the 70th week already being started. I mean why can't it already have begun? Where do we get that the rapture precisely kicks off 7 yrs.? Why didn't the Great Sign start the 70th week? I believe in a pre-trib rapture, but that's changing. I'm starting to believe that it's more "pre-judgement" or "beginning judgement before it gets bad" rapture. With all the disasters around the world it's horrible that people die, but in all honesty there has not been mass casualties. Come to think of it, the Vegas shooting may have been the worst of any other since Aug 21. The feasts may be linked to Messiah (as disciple4life insists - not saying your wrong bro, please know there is not any tone with that 😜) but why can't all 3 be fulfilled at the end of the Trib. You know 7 yrs from now? We pray and witness and live a Godly example with the short days we have to go Hello Mike, brothers,
First off, someone talked about temperaments/ personalities. ??yardstick and others. ;-) They are really helpful in business, in marriage and countless life experiences. I'm predominately Otter - I promise not to go on a tangent. ;-) - Lion/ Driver - Extroverted/ Process world by fact/logic -- Motivated by Pride (Sense of Accomplish, Get it done) Often managers, military
- Otter/ Expressive - Extroverted/ Process world by emotions -- Motivated by Pleasure Often PR people, Hospitality, event coordinators
- Golden retriever - Introverted/ Process world by emotions -- Motivated by Peace - Let's not argue, Often teachers, caregivers,
- Beaver - Introverted/ Process world by fact logic -- Motivated by Price - (bottom line) facts, statistics, numbers. Need more data. Often tend to be accountants/
Did I mention Otters/Expressive like stories and pictures. Beavers - not so much. I lean strongly to Pre-Tribulation rapture - I lean strongly to Israel-as-Fig Passage in Matthew 24 about Fig Tree is referring to Israel, nation in a day, my Parents' generation. 1947 I lean strongly that Feasts are inseparably linked to Messiah. I lean strongly that AC will be Jewish.
But I'm looking and reading and exploring other models and hypotheses. And as I try to learn and always keep the position that we share and learn from each other, I've totally changed and disregarded some views. ;-)
While there are tons of different views and theories, the vast majority of people who believe that the Harpazo is Pre-Tribulation believe there is some trigger event - some catalyst, that lights the fuse/ or pushes the first domino. ? not sure what percentage of people. My guess is about 98 % (Can we please get a Beaver in the house??) It seems that there is likely a gap - maybe a few days, maybe a month between the Harpazo event and the start of the Tribulation. - From what I've heard and read so far, it seems that THE TRIGGER event that starts the actual 7 year day count, is the 7 year treaty. The hypothesis that makes the most sense to me, at this time, is that the Harpazo will cause world-wide, mass chaos, -world's largest mega shouting event. Terror for those whose loved ones are snatched away. In Christian countries, people will make the connection right away. In Muslim, atheist countries, I imagine, it will be much harder. Very few watchman, risk is great, persecution, and sometimes even threat of death for preaching Christianity. Imagine a scenario when all the people are there, but the babies and children are missing. - another thread. *** This mass world-panic, chaos, confusion - anarchy, fear, sets the stage for a powerful, world leader who can/will negotiate a treaty with many. ***In my humble opinion, the props are all in place for the temple - plans, priests, red heifer, all the instruments, solid gold menorah, everything is ready for the start of the temple. and I think that the construction won't actually be started until there is the treaty. Too risky, too much volatility/ instability between Muslims, & Jews. With this said, I think the Harpazo will happen, and then a short gap, - **World governments need time to compare and corroborate their stories. wink wink. Of course I don't/ can't speak for others who hold mid-tribulation or pre-wrath views, but it's my understanding that these also believe there is a Trigger event- Some catalyst that starts Daniel's day count, and I think it's not the first frost in Tennessee, or the Boston Marathon, or the opening of Nascar.
I really like Bruce's comment, opinion that the Harpazo is somehow linked to Noah ** and Lot/Sodom. These events have virtually nothing in common, but there was a warning in advance. 7 days in the case of Noah.
Cornelius Jones, makes a very very compelling case for the Abomination of Desolation occurring on Passover. **Think about it -- when do Jews do sacrifices in the temple. Not on July 4th. **He was off about Lot and Passover, but has corrected this. ;-)
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 20, 2017 1:15:35 GMT -6
...we overlook the possibility of the 70th week already being started. I mean why can't it already have begun? Where do we get that the rapture precisely kicks off 7 yrs.? Why didn't the Great Sign start the 70th week? This is something that I've been contemplating, as well, mike, especially as the American eclipses are to be 7 years apart. The only thing that keeps me hesitant as I ponder it is the idea that the 7 years would be started by the covenant with many, which we haven't seen yet. But what if the Revelation 12 sign in the heavens is indeed the starting of all the events that we find in the Book of Revelation? My thoughts exactly, Whatif. I think the covenant with many/ UN resolution, or whatever they call it [Treaty]Is the big Mega Trigger event, that starts Daniels day count. There has to be time to build the temple, before there can be ***Sacrifices there. When do Jews do sacrifices. ?? I think this is very significant. I see no reason for them to arbitrarily decide to do sacrifices on 4th of July, or Boxing Day. We already know when they do sacrifices.
I've often thought about possibility that there could likely be a back-room deal, behind closed doors - Iran deal, and that we could find out later, or from a leaked source. In other words, all the world might not know immediately that "the clock was started" but it could happen. It might be that the leaders know - (US and Israel, or Israel and Iran, or Israel and Russia, ?? Another country) that the deal is so controversial, or provocative, - especially when it involves the Temple mount, that they would try to keep it hidden, or bury it in another piece of UN Legislation, with another primary focus. (Bait and switch, thing that US politicians love to do, Earmarked Pork spending, when they tie it to another bill, totally unrelated. With the specific intent of hiding it from voters.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 20, 2017 6:30:29 GMT -6
This is something that I've been contemplating, as well, mike, especially as the American eclipses are to be 7 years apart. The only thing that keeps me hesitant as I ponder it is the idea that the 7 years would be started by the covenant with many, which we haven't seen yet. But what if the Revelation 12 sign in the heavens is indeed the starting of all the events that we find in the Book of Revelation? My thoughts exactly, Whatif. I think the covenant with many, Treaty. Is the big Mega Trigger event, that starts Daniels day count. There has to be time to build the temple, before there can be ***Sacrifices there. When do Jews do sacrifices.?
While the UN and similar are not going to twist Israels hand to sign a peace deal and split the land, the compromise of being able to build their temple with no quarrels for a slice of land in return would probably be a go. In my opinion at least that makes the most sense. Going to keep paying attention to the headlines, especially as everyone keeps putting the pressure on Israel. You KNOW Trump and his son in law know that is what they want. They are the ultimate deal makers. This is going to be presented to both sides. They have go fund me and similar support groups pushing and paying for the temple to be completed like yesterday. disciple4life is right, everything is primed and ready, now. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 20, 2017 7:39:33 GMT -6
My thoughts exactly, Whatif. I think the covenant with many, Treaty. Is the big Mega Trigger event, that starts Daniels day count. There has to be time to build the temple, before there can be ***Sacrifices there. When do Jews do sacrifices.?
While the UN and similar are not going to twist Israels hand to sign a peace deal and split the land, the compromise of being able to build their temple with no quarrels for a slice of land in return would probably be a go. In my opinion at least that makes the most sense. Going to keep paying attention to the headlines, especially as everyone keeps putting the pressure on Israel. You KNOW Trump and his son in law know that is what they want. They are the ultimate deal makers. This is going to be presented to both sides. They have go fund me and similar support groups pushing and paying for the temple to be completed like yesterday. disciple4life is right, everything is primed and ready, now. Yes, Cwoods85. !!! Who more capable, than a very very rich, powerful Jewish guy with ties to Israel, and whose father-in-law is the President. All of Trumps sons are married to Jewish women, and all his grandchildren are Jewish. Hmmm. I know there is a lot of speculation that Macron is a very high prospect, but I haven't heard a single source say that he's Jewish. Does anyone know. ??
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 8:25:03 GMT -6
^^^^D4L, just to be accurate (not nitpicky brother, i promise)...Ivanka converted because of Kushner, he was/is the Jew she was not but is now.
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Post by kjs on Oct 20, 2017 9:03:17 GMT -6
...we overlook the possibility of the 70th week already being started. I mean why can't it already have begun? Where do we get that the rapture precisely kicks off 7 yrs.? Why didn't the Great Sign start the 70th week? This is something that I've been contemplating, as well, mike, especially as the American eclipses are to be 7 years apart. The only thing that keeps me hesitant as I ponder it is the idea that the 7 years would be started by the covenant with many, which we haven't seen yet. But what if the Revelation 12 sign in the heavens is indeed the starting of all the events that we find in the Book of Revelation? I keep wondering if perhaps this waiting period we've been in since 23 September 2017 is simply the time of the events in heaven described in Revelation 5 as Jesus prepares to open the first seal of the scroll. If Revelation 12:1-2 marked the day when the Book of Revelation was to start unfolding, we have so many things to watch for coming up in our world--perhaps all the events of the 7 seals. It may be that the 7 years will start in the time of the 1st Trumpet Judgment, with the Rapture occurring in the time of the 6th/7th Seal. I think this is one of those times we must go back to what the Bible actually says… Daniel 9:20 While I was still speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and presenting my request before the LORD my God concerning his holy mountainDaniel 9: 24 “Seventy weeks have been determined concerning your people and your holy city
to put an end to rebellion, to bring sin to completion, to atone for iniquity, to bring in perpetual righteousness, to seal up the prophetic vision, and to anoint a most holy place.Because of the Daniel verses, we have a few FACTS we can rely on The 70 Weeks (70 seven year periods) only applies to Israel (Daniel’s People). Based on history – 69 of those weeks have passed. There are two primary views about the completed 69 weeks. 1) That they ended on Palm Sunday during Jesus first time here 2) That They ended with the destruction of the Temple 70ad. There has been a supernatural Pause (or hold) placed upon the start of the 70th week. There are some who believe the 70th week of Daniel is in Fact the Seven year period mentioned in Revelation and that they are one in the same. Daniel does finish the prophecy stating the final week will be confirmed by a “HIM” by a covenant but in the midst of the week the covenant will be broken … and then major destruction will take place. Since the major “tribulations” take place in the latter half of the Great Tribulation mention in Revelation – many people have aligned these two events. If that is true – then we know those last seven years deals primarily with Israel (Daniel’s people) – with the Gentile Nations receiving the most destruction. We may have a clue in Micah 5 3 “Therefore that ruler (God) will abandon them (Israel) until the woman in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his countrymen will return to the Israelis.” Seems to imply at some time a “women will give birth” and once that birth happens – God’s focus will return to being primarily on Israel. Many here feel the BIRTH and the Rapture are the same (or near same event) … However, no one has identified when the “Birth” Actually takes place. BUT we do know God has abandon Israel UNTIL that Birth …. Since the 70th week is only for Israel and since God has abandon Israel until the Birth … Than it appears the 70th week has not started as of yet. (Unless one wants to claim the Sign (9/23) was the Birth – and most people I know do not make that claim.) |
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 9:52:43 GMT -6
kjs maybe some of my point wasnt expounded on quite the way I had intended. I agree with everything youre saying. Former member Sam had said some convincing things regarding the Rapture and the 70th week. One of those that stuck out to me was the beginning of week 70. I have started to consider the rapture being a "signless" event. After 9/23 passed and nothing that we can identify coinciding with the actual sign transpired (eg-rapture), I began to think the rapture is not tied to feasts. I dont want to get into another debate about that as I think we've done it enough already, but simply said (by a simple mind) why cant Jesus fulfill the feasts at the end or near the end of the 7 yrs? If the tribulation is started or very near to starting, with the latter 3.5 yrs as the most destructive we are still in the time frames for the feasts to fit perfectly. Again my intention is not to get into predicting feast dates, but to consider the possibility that we have seen some very destructive events occur in the greatest of the gentile nations. Perhaps its the pre-pre-trib. the beginning before the beginning. Did i say anything different than earlier? 
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 20, 2017 10:43:10 GMT -6
kjs maybe some of my point wasnt expounded on quite the way I had intended. I agree with everything youre saying. Former member Sam had said some convincing things regarding the Rapture and the 70th week. One of those that stuck out to me was the beginning of week 70. I have started to consider the rapture being a "signless" event. After 9/23 passed and nothing that we can identify coinciding with the actual sign transpired (eg-rapture), I began to think the rapture is not tied to feasts. I dont want to get into another debate about that as I think we've done it enough already, but simply said (by a simple mind) why cant Jesus fulfill the feasts at the end or near the end of the 7 yrs? If the tribulation is started or very near to starting, with the latter 3.5 yrs as the most destructive we are still in the time frames for the feasts to fit perfectly. Again my intention is not to get into predicting feast dates, but to consider the possibility that we have seen some very destructive events occur in the greatest of the gentile nations. Perhaps its the pre-pre-trib. the beginning before the beginning. Did i say anything different than earlier? Going on the idea of pre-pre-trib events, Jesus did say this in Matthew 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.Jesus made it clear in these verses and in other verses that these were just the beginning. Not the main event.
I also agree with what you've said kjs . I still see things on hold since the 69th week. |
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Post by bruce on Oct 20, 2017 11:01:22 GMT -6
Wow! A lot of posts to catch up on since I last checked in! :-)
Mike, it seems like you were questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I think it's fine to question some of these doctrines, especially those that pertain to future events, but I remain convinced that the pre-trib rapture makes the most sense of the various Biblical texts. Nothing has happened yet this fall to make me change my mind about that. As Linda made reference to, the word apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3 could be a reference to the pre-trib rapture. This view is not without controversy, but I have studied it quite a bit over the years and I find it to be the most compelling interpretation of the term, though I have a lot of respect for those who would disagree. Some compelling essays by credentialed scholars have been written on the topic.
Another reason to believe the rapture is pre-trib is the layout of the Book of Revelation. I also believe the best explanation of the 24 elders in Chapters 4 and 5 are that they are the church. Though this is also not without controversy, Revelation 5:9 has the elders proclaiming "Thou (Jesus) hast redeemed us". Jesus didn't redeem angels, he redeemed man, so these must be humans in heaven proclaiming this, and they are in heaven prior to the breaking of the first seal in chapter 6. This also strongly suggests a pre-trib rapture. That's one reason I have a hard time with theories claiming various seals have been broken. I don't think the seals will break until we are in the throne room proclaiming that Christ is worthy to break the seals. Then He will, then the four horsemen of the apocalypse will ride forth and the Tribulation will begin.
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 11:12:10 GMT -6
Fair enough...I starting doing exactly what I didnt want to do, calculating days...Maybe we are in the beginning stages, maybe we are not. Either way I'm ok with it. This one I thing I am confident in, His appearance is soon! kjs - could the Micah 5 birth be the 9/23 sign? We are just easing into the Trib? Possible |
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 20, 2017 11:18:48 GMT -6
Wow! A lot of posts to catch up on since I last checked in! :-) Mike, it seems like you were questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I think it's fine to question some of these doctrines, especially those that pertain to future events, but I remain convinced that the pre-trib rapture makes the most sense of the various Biblical texts. Nothing has happened yet this fall to make me change my mind about that. As Linda made reference to, the word apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3 could be a reference to the pre-trib rapture. This view is not without controversy, but I have studied it quite a bit over the years and I find it to be the most compelling interpretation of the term, though I have a lot of respect for those who would disagree. Some compelling essays by credentialed scholars have been written on the topic. Another reason to believe the rapture is pre-trib is the layout of the Book of Revelation. I also believe the best explanation of the 24 elders in Chapters 4 and 5 are that they are the church. Though this is also not without controversy, Revelation 5:9 has the elders proclaiming "Thou (Jesus) hast redeemed us". Jesus didn't redeem angels, he redeemed man, so these must be humans in heaven proclaiming this, and they are in heaven prior to the breaking of the first seal in chapter 6. This also strongly suggests a pre-trib rapture. That's one reason I have a hard time with theories claiming various seals have been broken. I don't think the seals will break until we are in the throne room proclaiming that Christ is worthy to break the seals. Then He will, then the four horsemen of the apocalypse will ride forth and the Tribulation will begin. This sums up most of my view with Revelation as well. I just don't find it within the character of the Bridegroom (God, Jesus) to let the Bride of Christ to be beaten and tortured before the wedding. If you read up on Jewish wedding customs it fits nicely with a pre-trib rapture. |
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Post by mike on Oct 20, 2017 11:37:10 GMT -6
But MikeTaft, my earlier point is (big) IF the Trib had started 9/23 (humor me), we the bride aren't really beaten yet are we? Numerous disasters, with minimal casualties. This "I'm pre-trib" well "I'm pre-wrath", but the Bible tells me "post-wrath" debate will continue. I think there is a ton of validity on identifying the 70th aside from our Rapture timing biases. Throw those out for a minute, think outside the box of what we've all heard before. *Disclaimer - I am not saying God will not perform His word, but maybe our views are askew and we don't recognize it. Imminency has been so widely held for so long. Consider that in the process. Why does Gods shift to Israel have to be a hard/fast stop with a cataclysmic event like the rapture? Why can't it be gradually building like tension in tectonic plates? |
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Congratulations!
Not on July 4th. 
