Post by yardstick on Oct 1, 2017 11:05:09 GMT -6
I am opening this thread so that we may post and discuss various hypotheses related to a pre-trib/pre-wrath harpazo/rapture. Someone has also opened my eyes that I should (as a matter of inclusiveness) add the mid-trib hypotheses as well.
I'll put pre-wrath in red.
I'll put mid-trib in blue.
I'll put pre-trib in a dark green (color 029520), but only if it cannot support the other two positions - someone might help me out with this part, please.
If the hypothesis works for all three, then I will leave it black.
I'll put objections or clarifications in italics, and credit the member.
I'll try to enumerate each hypothesis in this first thread as we discuss them.
1. FoT/Yom Teruah 9/20-9/23 hypothesis - this hypothesis has appears to have been shown to be missing information, and may no longer be valid. Missing information includes:
- possible 'circumcision' required of the son that is born. which takes an additional 8 days.
- pre-supposes that a harpazo must occur on a jewish feast day
-may have been off by a day
-may be off by a month if this is a leap year
- may be off by 10 days due to Jubileee year (Lev. 25)
-may be off by a month if this is a leap year (delayed barley harvest)
2. FoA/Yom Kippur 9/30 - this hypothesis requires that a harpazo did not occur on FoT:
- adds the 8 day 'circumcision' of the son to the FoT
- pre-supposes that a harpazo must occur on a jewish feast day
-may be off by 10 days due to Jubilee year
-may be off by a month if this is a leap year (delayed barley harvest)
3. FoB/Sukkot - 10/5 or so - this hypothesis requires that the harpazo did not occur on either of the two feast days
- begs the question of order and timing
- pre-supposes that a harpazo must occur on a jewish feast day
- may be off by 10 days due to Jubilee year
- may be off by a month if this is a leap year (delayed barley harvest)
- Draconids meteor shower may be the rev 12:4 sign and may be related
- FoT fulfilled by the 'birth of the church' (son) in the sense that people 'woke up' and become active?, followed by the circumcision of the church on FoA (those who were not really of the body fell away after nothing 'happened' on 9/20-9/23), would allow for the harpazo on this feast, fulfilling all three. (if you understand where I am going with this, please help me correct my lexicon - I want to use the right words)
4. FoB/Sukkot - 10/5 or so - this hypothesis suggests that the last three feast days will be fulfilled in reverse order. See the Berean thread (as edited by D4L- thanks!)
- pre-supposes that a harpazo must occur on a jewish feast day
- may be off by 10 days due to Jubilee year
- may be off by a month if this is a leap year (delayed barley harvest)
D4L - I don't believe this at all. To me this has the same credibility of crop circles or the pyramid angles. It's a slippery slope, if one, then maybe it's off by two months. How many years has this been "off."?? How can anyone prove it.? Why hasn't anyone else noticed this? - The people whose life and culture is surrounded by lunar cycles.
- Draconids meteor shower may be the rev 12:4 sign and may be related
unsealed.boards.net/thread/1005/harpazo-hypotheses?page=4#ixzz4uUbU2bkl
5. Thanks to disciple4life (D4L) for reminding me of this hypothesis (edit by D4L - thanks!):
The Rapture, Second Coming and Millennial reign are all inseparably linked to the Feasts, and that if nothing happens by the end of Sukkot, 14th- 20th of Tishri [2017], Then we wait, work and watch until Feast of Trumpets/Shouting next year.
- pre-supposes that a harpazo must occur on a jewish feast day
- high risk that the 'generation' hypothesis - 80 year maximum between 'generations' - will be violated.
D4L - FIG or Israel as Fig Tree (IaF) - [see the previous post - clarification of terms.] People who hold the view that the passage in Matt -"This generation will not pass away til all these things are fulfilled" believe this explicitly refers to Israel - Israel becoming a nation in 1947 was a huge and important prophecy fulfilled, and Israel is referred to as the Fig Tree in multiple passages.
*** This belief is totally separate and independent from # 4 or 5.
***Any person holding any position on the rapture can be IaF. Israel as Fig, or any can reject this view. [It doesn't belong exclusively to any number.]
- no Rev 12:1-2 alignment in support (too far away/ too much time elapsed)
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Below are some of the supporting reasons for my views -- Fellow watchman - Disciple4Life.
◾First of all I think we should be as precise as we can - "This group believes The Feasts are inseparably linked to the Messiah." In other words - Christ fulfilled all four Spring feasts in Perfect order, and in Perfect precision - On the exact Feast day.
◾There is very strong historical, and astronomical evidence that shows that Christ was born precisely on the day of Yom Teruah - Feast of Trumpets, on Sept 11, 3 BC. www.torahcalendar.com
◾Zechariah 14 explicitly says that at the end of the age, that all nations - Jews and Gentiles will celebrate Feast of Booths - Sukkot.
◾The Apostle Paul said to the Colossians - that the Feasts are a shadow of (point to) things to come.
◾***In one of the 2 most well-known rapture passages in the entire Bible, Paul said to the Predominately Gentile church at Corinth about the Rapture and referred to the Yom Teruah, (means blast or literally Shouting) It was clear they understood what he meant.
◾Pentecost, there were people from different countries, people groups and regions, Jews and Gentiles - ***Gathered on the Feast of Weeks - Pentecost.
◾Passover was fulfilled and those Gentiles who say the Feasts are only for Jews - claim the benefits of Passover, namely that the Passover lamb paid the penalty for all nations, all mankind.
◾It should also be noted that the message on the cross was written in 3 languages. Two of the Three Languages were Gentile. Hebrew, Latin and Greek. Hebrew, for Jews, the religious language in Jerusalem, Latin (Gentiles) was the language of Government, and Greek was the language of commerce. ;-) G
◾Multiple historians affirm that the Early church, Mixed - both Jews and Gentiles, observed the feasts. **This should not be seen as Prescriptive - not a command, but descriptive. But it shows us that the Gentile Church understood the feasts and did not see them as only for Jews.
◾Harpazo event. Rapture will be for all those who accept the Messiah - Both Jew and Gentile. There are tens of thousands of Messianic Jews, and the number is growing. Conversely - those in the Tribulation are all those who didn't accept the Messiah, both Jews and Gentiles.
◾***Many 'Tribulation timelines' are built based on the Prophetic/ Ancient Hebrew year 360 days, with 3 1/2 years being the 1260 days of Daniel. When you compare all the timelines. Many of these use the Jewish Feasts as a Starting point, Mid Point, or End Point. Some use all three.
◾***A Harpazo at Yom Teruah- Feast of Trumpets or Day of Atonement would put the mid point at Passover - a high prospect date for the Abomination of Desolation.
◾Some Tribulation timelines are vague and simply list the main events, which occur, but many even look to Torah Calendar and Hebcal.org to figure out the Feast Day 7 years ahead and work backwards. I think yardstick and others have used this system for some, if I'm not mistaken.
◾It's impossible to Fulfill Day of Atonement on Fourth of July, in the same way that it's impossible to Fulfill Passover on Christmas, or Pentecost on Valentines day. The Feast days are Moadim- Appointed Times and they are fulfilled on that feast day. It only makes sense. So for those who say the rapture could occur on any given day, or the Second coming, - June 2, or July 4th, or Feb 14th, these two fall Feasts (Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement/ Yom Kippur) could not be fulfilled perfectly.
Read more
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8. Thanks to james for this one:
unsealed.boards.net/thread/1005/harpazo-hypotheses?page=3&scrollTo=13143
I'm beginning to think that the signs may actually have been fulfilled more than I realized, and it was my own eager anticipation of the Rapture that blinded me to the truth about the events. Going back to Revelation 12 and re-examining the timeline:To begin with, I think that the idea of it actually being a Jubilee year is reading too much into it. Rather, approach the idea of it as a measure of time, such as when Daniel spoke of "Weeks" of years, "Jubilee" is a measure of years. The timing still fits, 1517-1917-1967-2017, Eight Jubilees occupied, One Jubilee No Man's Land, One Jubilee as a Nation.
Now, by that measure, the Feast of Trumpets/Day of Shouting happened exactly as it was supposed to, aside from Israel celebrating it one day too early. Using TorahCalendar, Rosh Hashanah began at Sundown on the 21st of September. It came to a close at sunset on the 23rd of September, and the "Last Trump" sounded exactly when it was supposed to, with the rising of the sign of Revelation 12: 1-2. It's the last Feast of Trumpets the Church sees before the Second Coming.
Ten days later, on Yom Kippur, you had the conclusion of the 40 days since the Ecplise, just as Jonah, and the eighth day Circumcision of the Child born. On the Day of Atonement, the Man-Child (Jupiter) was made clean.
The next event that comes is Sukkot, and during that week we see what looks to be the fulfillment of Revelation 12: 3-9, with the moon passing below the Constellation Draco, where above him is Bootes (Ten horns) and Corona Borealis (Seven Crowns) as well as Heracles/Hercules, depicted as being on his knees fighting a snake, while below them half a dozen meteor showers are all reaching their peak days all in the same place. So you have the tail sweeping down the stars while the dragon fights Michael, but neither prevails.
In current events, the US ambassador extended his visit through Sukkot, seeking the "Deal of the Century". Would it not be fitting that the stars falling depict the Dragon being cast out, while at the same time the Antichrist unmasks himself via the 7-year treaty, and that is what sets off the Rapture?
Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1005/harpazo-hypotheses?page=3#ixzz4uPpF4XnV
9. Harpazo fulfills all three feasts at the same time and is the 'bookend' for the feasts this fall (thanks nana! - got this from your post!)
unsealed.boards.net/thread/1005/harpazo-hypotheses?page=3
10. The Harpazo does not necessarily occur on any specific jewish feast day for many reasons
- Doctrine of Imminence
- feast days are indicators for jews not gentiles the church
- signs of the times are given to the gentiles, not the jews
- knowing the season is given to believers
- believed to occur prior to the 'prevailing' agreement with many, which would signal the beginning of the Tribulation
Bolded is the latest change
That fits with my pre-wrath leaning..ha ha! The sign of the Woman in Labor points to the Birth...the Birth is where the action lies, not the Labor, at least as I understand it, but could very well be wrong!