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Post by rt on Sept 5, 2017 16:40:09 GMT -6
And don't forget there are also 7 thunders I forget, rt, what is your take on the 7 thunders? How might that play in this scenario? or not? From the chapter titled, "The Mighty Angel," from the Massegee book, his take on the Seven Thunders is thus: —"This Mighty Angel delivers a message from the seven thunders, but John is not allowed to write it down. 10: 3 "And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. And when he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices." (Revelation 10: 3) 10: 4 "Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them." (Revelation 10: 4) This Mighty Angel had such a booming, authoritative voice that it sounded like a lion roaring when he spoke. As this angel roared like a lion, seven thunders were heard. As John had his pen in hand preparing to write what the seven thunders said, God stopped him, and said, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.” I am tempted to speculate as to whom these seven thunders are, and what they said, but when the Bible is silent on a matter, it is best that we be silent too. In Mark 3: 16-19, some of the Apostles were referred to as “sons of thunder.” However, I do not think there is any connection here. Thunder is the sound that follows a flash of lightning, and is caused by a sudden expansion of the air in the path of the electrical discharge. While we may not understand the details, God is preparing to bring about all kinds of changes in weather patterns, lightning, thundering, cosmic phenomena, worldwide earthquakes, and hail stones weighing over 75 pounds. Since all 333 prophesies of the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally, to be on the safe side, I am compelled to take these prophesies concerning the Second Coming literally. If one day I learn that some of these prophecies should be taken more symbolically, I believe they will be even more real, and spectacular, if that is possible. If God had wanted us to understand the seven thunders, He would have told John to write it down. Since God never says anything, unless it is important to someone, I believe God allowed John to hear what the seven thunders said in order to give him a better perspective as he wrote the Book of Revelation. However, God did not think we needed to know. So after telling John what the seven thunders said, God told him He didn’t want anyone else to know." MissusMack08, When I have a chance I will answer your question in another thread, I don't want to distract from the topic of this thread so will start a new one on this topic when I have time. |
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Post by rt on Sept 14, 2017 10:14:48 GMT -6
I forget, rt, what is your take on the 7 thunders? How might that play in this scenario? or not? From the chapter titled, "The Mighty Angel," from the Massegee book, his take on the Seven Thunders is thus: —"This Mighty Angel delivers a message from the seven thunders, but John is not allowed to write it down. 10: 3 "And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. And when he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices." (Revelation 10: 3) 10: 4 "Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them." (Revelation 10: 4) This Mighty Angel had such a booming, authoritative voice that it sounded like a lion roaring when he spoke. As this angel roared like a lion, seven thunders were heard. As John had his pen in hand preparing to write what the seven thunders said, God stopped him, and said, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.” I am tempted to speculate as to whom these seven thunders are, and what they said, but when the Bible is silent on a matter, it is best that we be silent too. In Mark 3: 16-19, some of the Apostles were referred to as “sons of thunder.” However, I do not think there is any connection here. Thunder is the sound that follows a flash of lightning, and is caused by a sudden expansion of the air in the path of the electrical discharge. While we may not understand the details, God is preparing to bring about all kinds of changes in weather patterns, lightning, thundering, cosmic phenomena, worldwide earthquakes, and hail stones weighing over 75 pounds. Since all 333 prophesies of the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally, to be on the safe side, I am compelled to take these prophesies concerning the Second Coming literally. If one day I learn that some of these prophecies should be taken more symbolically, I believe they will be even more real, and spectacular, if that is possible. If God had wanted us to understand the seven thunders, He would have told John to write it down. Since God never says anything, unless it is important to someone, I believe God allowed John to hear what the seven thunders said in order to give him a better perspective as he wrote the Book of Revelation. However, God did not think we needed to know. So after telling John what the seven thunders said, God told him He didn’t want anyone else to know." MissusMack08, When I have a chance I will answer your question in another thread, I don't want to distract from the topic of this thread so will start a new one on this topic when I have time. Just wanted to let you know MissisMack08, that I started a thread on this here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/832/thunders |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 15, 2017 19:54:33 GMT -6
rt I am on board in regards to the seals being open, up to the 4th for sure. Stepping back and looking at them, they read that way to me. My only question is to look at that 5th seal. Is there any thought that this could be the resurgence of Islam and its activity against Christians? I know Christians have been slain for their belief in Him for centuries, but it seems way more aggressive today. The Scripture points out they were "slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" Yet, if I die before the rapture I was just a walking Christian, not slain for my faith. Well, unless I am faced with the sword..Let's use my dad, he died of cancer. He would not be under the alter crying for the Lord to avenge...am I making my point? My apologies if you made this clear in this thread. I had looked for a back and forth on the 5th seal, but cam not seeing it...will keep looking. But yet, too, perhaps there is a special place for the slain in Christ, and they have a voice to be heard as compared to those who were Believers who died naturally, or however. Those slain speak for ALL who are Asleep... and are eager for God's wrath to get going... onward in my looking.. thanks!
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Post by rt on Sept 17, 2017 13:35:50 GMT -6
rt I am on board in regards to the seals being open, up to the 4th for sure. Stepping back and looking at them, they read that way to me. My only question is to look at that 5th seal. Is there any thought that this could be the resurgence of Islam and its activity against Christians? I know Christians have been slain for their belief in Him for centuries, but it seems way more aggressive today. The Scripture points out they were "slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" Yet, if I die before the rapture I was just a walking Christian, not slain for my faith. Well, unless I am faced with the sword..Let's use my dad, he died of cancer. He would not be under the alter crying for the Lord to avenge...am I making my point? My apologies if you made this clear in this thread. I had looked for a back and forth on the 5th seal, but cam not seeing it...will keep looking. But yet, too, perhaps there is a special place for the slain in Christ, and they have a voice to be heard as compared to those who were Believers who died naturally, or however. Those slain speak for ALL who are Asleep... and are eager for God's wrath to get going... onward in my looking.. thanks! Hi barbiosheepgirl, I don't think I talked much about the 5th seal in this thread, but I do talk about it here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture?page=3starting at this time stamp: May 3, 2017 at 9:08am |
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Post by wateredseeds on Sept 18, 2017 21:10:17 GMT -6
I think the key is actually in the revealing of the angels themselves that do each "action" as it were.
"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."-Revelation 8:1-2
This shows the seals going right into the trumpets...that the trumpets are actually revealed BY the opening of the 7th seal. "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."-Revelation 8:6
You also have this problem: "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."-Revelation 15:1
The fact that it denotes them as the seven LAST plagues is a big issue with doing anything other than chronological. That's just me though. I've played with this a lot, and i used to try to come up with something other than chronological. I absolutely think the 7th seal unleashes the trumpets...and the 7th trumpet unleashes the vial/bowl judgments.
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Post by rt on Sept 18, 2017 21:43:40 GMT -6
I think the key is actually in the revealing of the angels themselves that do each "action" as it were. "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."-Revelation 8:1-2 This shows the seals going right into the trumpets...that the trumpets are actually revealed BY the opening of the 7th seal. "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."-Revelation 8:6 You also have this problem: "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."-Revelation 15:1 The fact that it denotes them as the seven LAST plagues is a big issue with doing anything other than chronological. That's just me though. I've played with this a lot, and i used to try to come up with something other than chronological. I absolutely think the 7th seal unleashes the trumpets...and the 7th trumpet unleashes the vial/bowl judgments. You make some excellent points! |
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Post by daniel on Nov 27, 2017 9:02:37 GMT -6
I think the key is actually in the revealing of the angels themselves that do each "action" as it were. "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."-Revelation 8:1-2 This shows the seals going right into the trumpets...that the trumpets are actually revealed BY the opening of the 7th seal. "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."-Revelation 8:6 You also have this problem: "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."-Revelation 15:1 The fact that it denotes them as the seven LAST plagues is a big issue with doing anything other than chronological. That's just me though. I've played with this a lot, and i used to try to come up with something other than chronological. I absolutely think the 7th seal unleashes the trumpets...and the 7th trumpet unleashes the vial/bowl judgments. I lean towards the pattern of "the seventh thing brings about another seven things". I think that's why God told Joshua to capture Jericho in that specific way (Joshua 6:3-4)... it was a prophetic pointer to the Revelation trumpets. |
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Post by dennislwatson on Nov 27, 2017 18:54:00 GMT -6
Has anyone ever considered that each Trump is blown and then a vile is poured out? Versus seven trumps blown and then seven bowls are poured out? I see in the scriptures that Trumpets are blown for a pronouncement and then what they pronounced happened. If we were to follow the rule of first mention, then it would seem that it would go trumpet then vial, trumpet then Vial, trumpet then vial, etc. How would you explain the potential discrepancy between Rev 8:8, where 1/3 of the sea was turned to blood and 1/3 of the creatures in it died, and Rev 16:3 where every living thing in the sea died? BTW, what you are describing is one of the eschatological hypotheses, where each seal, trumpet and bowl is matched up and they occur 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3 et c. Yardstick. I would like to take a shot at this if I can. (not the the the last last last part part part but the trumpet/vial comparison) I don't have time to develop the thought just yet, fully. And I need to go to a book "Wonderful Counselor" by Cynthia Sowa who wrote a book 20 years ago that suggested that Revelation 12:1-5 was about the rapture and she had had no idea about the Revelation 12 sign, but it is from her book that I began to understand better the organization of Revelation. (ok I went and got the book page 368) Short answer is that for the 2nd Trump, the view was from heaven above (look where John is while he is getting this information in Chapter 8) and since heaven was John's perspective, he looks down and he sees all the oceans and the fraction he came up with was 1/3rd. The 2nd Vial also affects the sea but John's perspective for the vision from Rev. 12 to Rev. 16 is from earth. Remember? In Rev. 12 he was looking up at a heavenly sign? Remember? He was looking up in 12 and also in 15. He is on earth. He does not see the entire ocean, he sees where he is. Here is what Sowa says and I like it..."Here under the second bowl, John sees only the affected seas when he tells us that all in them perish. We have two bits of information: one-third of the seas are affected and, within them, all die." Blessings Saints. Soon we rise and shine. |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 3, 2017 11:22:28 GMT -6
I would say, they are in chronological order...7 angels, 7 trumpets, 7 vials.
Besides the seventh trumpet says it is about the coming of the Lord...(2 Thess 2..etc.) we go up.... rapture... Then chronologically the heavier vials of wrath can come down, as we are not HERE anymore....and the seventh vial is the Battle of Armggeddon where we come down after the Wedding Feast of 45 days...
Trumpets are given by our Two Witnesses, because we are still HERE in the Great Tribulation, but all go up at the Rapture, then the faithful ones come down with the Lord, 45 days later on white horses Rev. 19 IMO
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Post by yardstick on Dec 13, 2017 16:58:27 GMT -6
How would you explain the potential discrepancy between Rev 8:8, where 1/3 of the sea was turned to blood and 1/3 of the creatures in it died, and Rev 16:3 where every living thing in the sea died? BTW, what you are describing is one of the eschatological hypotheses, where each seal, trumpet and bowl is matched up and they occur 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3 et c. Yardstick. I would like to take a shot at this if I can. (not the the the last last last part part part but the trumpet/vial comparison) I don't have time to develop the thought just yet, fully. And I need to go to a book "Wonderful Counselor" by Cynthia Sowa who wrote a book 20 years ago that suggested that Revelation 12:1-5 was about the rapture and she had had no idea about the Revelation 12 sign, but it is from her book that I began to understand better the organization of Revelation. (ok I went and got the book page 368) Short answer is that for the 2nd Trump, the view was from heaven above (look where John is while he is getting this information in Chapter 8) and since heaven was John's perspective, he looks down and he sees all the oceans and the fraction he came up with was 1/3rd. The 2nd Vial also affects the sea but John's perspective for the vision from Rev. 12 to Rev. 16 is from earth. Remember? In Rev. 12 he was looking up at a heavenly sign? Remember? He was looking up in 12 and also in 15. He is on earth. He does not see the entire ocean, he sees where he is. Here is what Sowa says and I like it..."Here under the second bowl, John sees only the affected seas when he tells us that all in them perish. We have two bits of information: one-third of the seas are affected and, within them, all die." Blessings Saints. Soon we rise and shine. That is an interesting perspective. I have slowly been coming to the conclusion that each 'scene' in Revelation is a different dream/vision (regardless of chapter) and that each 'dream/vision' is independent of all the others; though in some cases related in the sense that it is either describing the same thing (from the different perspective), describing something in greater detail; or describing a different scenario. Some scenarios may be interrupted with a vignette - kinda like his attention is diverted, or where one dream switches to another (if youve ever experienced that). Also that the general trend of the book is (per chapter 1) in chronological order (what was, what is, what will be). I would categorize Rev 12 as one of those vignettes. It is not necessarily in chronological order with respect to the other verses. I have lately been considering it more of an overview, or summary. So, like this: Rev 1 - introduction Rev 2-4 - what was, what is Rev 5-end - what will be as follows: Ch 5-6 - 1st through 6th Seals Ch 7:1-8 - vignette before 7th seal Ch 7:9-17 - vignette before 7th Seal Ch 8:1-5 - 7th Seal Ch 8:6-13, Ch 9 - 1st thru 6th Trumpets Ch 10 - vignette before 7th trumpet Ch 11:1-14 - vignette before 7th trumpet Ch 11:8-19 - 7th trumpet CH 12 - vignette Ch 13 - vignette Ch 14 - vignette Ch 15 - vignette before the bowls Ch 16 - bowls Ch 17-19 - several vignettes related to Babylon's fall Ch 20 - vignette of Millennium, post millennium Ch 21, 22:1-5 - vignette of new heaven & new earth Ch 22:6-21 - end I think there is a pattern in the organization of the vignettes - kinda like they are related to what just happened, or the next thing to happen, but havent looked closely enough at it yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 17:25:37 GMT -6
Amen to the idea of each scene encapsulating individual, but connected truths - yardstick. This is similar to my view as well. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 20, 2017 9:58:08 GMT -6
hmmm, this is my 4th time start to finish thru Revelation in one sitting last night. (it caused me insomnia unfortunatly) Then of course there are all the times that I pick parts of it. My notes also see these vignettes. I do realize that boraddict had her epiphanies. Her presentation was something I wanted to see if I could see what she was seeing. Still working on that , boraddict. I will say one of the exciting things I saw in Ch 14 is the portrayal of what looks like 3 Harvests. Barley, Wheat and Grapes... If this is so, this is something I have not had any learned scholar show me. Maybe someone did already here on Unsealed.. if so , someone could point me that way... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 10:31:10 GMT -6
This is also repeated here: [Barley] Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.Rev 20:5 .... This is the first resurrection.and
[Wheat and Grape] Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.Here is a post in the Restoration thread that provides more information. |
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Post by schooldad3 on Dec 31, 2017 18:52:24 GMT -6
The great red dragon
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Post by Natalie on Dec 31, 2017 19:10:16 GMT -6
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