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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 6:20:37 GMT -6
Has anyone ever considered that each Trump is blown and then a vile is poured out? Versus seven trumps blown and then seven bowls are poured out? I see in the scriptures that Trumpets are blown for a pronouncement and then what they pronounced happened. If we were to follow the rule of first mention, then it would seem that it would go trumpet then vial, trumpet then Vial, trumpet then vial, etc.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 4, 2017 10:42:23 GMT -6
Interesting possibility. . . .
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Post by Gary on Apr 6, 2017 8:14:58 GMT -6
I need to study up on this. I haven't spent much time researching the significance, timing, or overlaps of the seals/trumpets/vials. One thing I'm learning though is that if you take Revelation as a purely chronological story you run into big problems. I think there is definitely a flow to it and a beginning and ending (things that were, things that are, things that are to come, etc), but there are also interludes and what seem to be overviews with differing perspectives at certain points.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 6, 2017 8:31:52 GMT -6
The seven trumpets and seven vials do indeed have a connection. You can tell by the content of each one--they match up. But what is said about each one is not identical--it is not, as someone said on the internet, two descriptions of the same thing. One possible understanding is that the one refers to the events locally in the Israel and the middle east, and the other refers to worldwide, but I see scant evidence for that.
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Post by rt on Apr 25, 2017 12:52:50 GMT -6
There is a president set in the Old Testament that I believe correlates to the seals/ trumpets and bowl judgments. Read Leviticus 26:14-42 www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/lev/26/14/s_116014You will note that this is a precedent of God for bringing about punishment and judgement upon Israel for their disobedience. You will also notice that within this passage you can find reference to the first four seals. Verse 21- the Beasts (which I believe are the conquerors of the first seal horse and rider), verse 25- the sword, verse 26- famine, verse 25- pestilence (death and Hades), they are referenced throughout the passage in other verses as well. These effects are also mentioned in other OT passages , but that is a study for another time. Getting back to Leviticus, in the passage you can find an intensification of these effects: verses 14-17- when the people refuse to obey and reject God's commands-the people are given a first chance to repent and obey Verse 18- when the people continue to disobey they are punished seven times more for sin (God intensifies the punishment with a second warning) verse 21-when the people act with hostility toward God there is an increase in the plague seven times (as a third warning/ corresponding to the seals) verse 23,24- If after the third warning they still do not repent then God will respond with hostility and strike them seven times (in discipline/ corresponding to the trumpets) verse 27-28- finally if after all this they still do not repent then God responds in wrath and vengeance - punishing seven times (as punishment/ corresponding to the bowls) The purpose in intensification is to bring the offender to repentance and a restored relationship with God, If they refuse to repent then God punishes in wrath. Though the effects appear similar, they are not the same, each step happens consecutively and in order and therefore do not occur at the same time. Remember that the purpose of the tribulation is to ultimately turn Israel back to God and reconcile them to Himself. He laid out to them here in the OT what His plan is to bring that about, and we see it perfectly played out in the Revelation which brings about that result. Therefore the seals and trumpets and bowls, at least in my observation happen consecutively. Though I do believe that some of their effects overlap and are intensified throughout the 70th week. Just my two cents RT |
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Post by rt on Apr 25, 2017 13:06:36 GMT -6
I need to study up on this. I haven't spent much time researching the significance, timing, or overlaps of the seals/trumpets/vials. One thing I'm learning though is that if you take Revelation as a purely chronological story you run into big problems. I think there is definitely a flow to it and a beginning and ending (things that were, things that are, things that are to come, etc), but there are also interludes and what seem to be overviews with differing perspectives at certain points. I have spent the last eleven years studying the Revelation and would have to disagree with you about the chronological view running into big problems. I see no problems whatsoever with a chronological approach. Seals followed by trumpets followed by bowls. It really depends on the foundation of interpretation that you lay though. If you follow a traditional pretrib model, then yes, you will have problems, which is by the way what sent me on my journey to study and understand the timing of events. Now don't get me wrong here, I totally believe in a pretrib rapture view. Though I see things in a slightly revised manner. Which I would be happy to share if there is interest and it is allowed by the administrator(s). |
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 25, 2017 17:55:41 GMT -6
I'm not an administrator, but I'm always interested in hearing alternative views. Please be sure to be concise and coherent, though, and show why you believe your timeline.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 18:24:16 GMT -6
I am interested! The Lord has been putting revelation study on me also and I'd like to see where it matches or disagrees with what I am seeing. I see it running chronologically, with interludes and chapters giving more detailed descriptions of a few verses.
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Post by rt on Apr 26, 2017 22:35:20 GMT -6
When I have a bit more time I will elaborate.
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Post by Gary on Apr 27, 2017 7:50:02 GMT -6
I need to study up on this. I haven't spent much time researching the significance, timing, or overlaps of the seals/trumpets/vials. One thing I'm learning though is that if you take Revelation as a purely chronological story you run into big problems. I think there is definitely a flow to it and a beginning and ending (things that were, things that are, things that are to come, etc), but there are also interludes and what seem to be overviews with differing perspectives at certain points. I have spent the last eleven years studying the Revelation and would have to disagree with you about the chronological view running into big problems. I see no problems whatsoever with a chronological approach. Seals followed by trumpets followed by bowls. It really depends on the foundation of interpretation that you lay though. If you follow a traditional pretrib model, then yes, you will have problems, which is by the way what sent me on my journey to study and understand the timing of events. Now don't get me wrong here, I totally believe in a pretrib rapture view. Though I see things in a slightly revised manner. Which I would be happy to share if there is interest and it is allowed by the administrator(s). Hey rt, I think we would all be interested to hear it  The intention behind this board is that watching Christians could have a place to freely express their thoughts. There are a number of other forums (not naming names) that revolve around very specific prophetic doctrines and if you disagree you get kicked off the plantation so to speak. I definitely don't want that here. Please feel free to share. That said, just please bear in mind rule #3 here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/2/new-members-read-first This rule helps keep good Christ-like discussion going even if disagreements come up. Btw, I do think the seals/trumpets/vials are in chronological order. I think the point I was making is that Revelation is not perfectly chronologically. For example, Revelation 11 rewinds the clock to describe the ministry of the two witnesses even though the seals were already opened and described in the previous chapters. Likewise with Revelation 12 - another rewinding. In Christ. |
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Post by rt on Apr 27, 2017 22:38:32 GMT -6
Thanks Gary, I will keep the rules in mind. I have been involved in other boards and some are not at all friendly to any other view but their own, which I try to respect. It is refreshing to find a place where people are open minded (within reason and within the confines of scripture) I will start a new thread on the topic. Looking forward to sharing my thoughts and getting feedback from you all. RT (Edit by Watchmanjim, 9/1/2017: Here is the link to the new thread RT began.) unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 31, 2017 22:14:45 GMT -6
rt...have you talked about the Seals on another thread? I came across something today at unsealed and I can't find my way back there. I wanted to go back and read it again. the person was suggesting that the first few seals have been opened or have happened already. I am only in the milk stages of my Revelation study, but when I was rereading the seals the other day, it made me think that they don't read as judgments. They read more like generalized events. The 4th and 5th seals remind me of whats going on in the middle east and isis..It seems to me that we are in the 5th seal...I wanted to reread the person's post because I think that is what they are saying and I was finding agreement with that.
If we are living in the 5th seal, than, woe!!
6th seal certainly seems rapturesque...
Hope you have time to comment...
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 31, 2017 22:21:32 GMT -6
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 31, 2017 23:00:48 GMT -6
I just found it and was coming back here to link it too!!!
Yeah, the seal thing. Makes sense to think that they (first 5) have been opened since Christ's Resurrection... mom will like this conversation.
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Post by yardstick on Sept 1, 2017 10:00:08 GMT -6
Has anyone ever considered that each Trump is blown and then a vile is poured out? Versus seven trumps blown and then seven bowls are poured out? I see in the scriptures that Trumpets are blown for a pronouncement and then what they pronounced happened. If we were to follow the rule of first mention, then it would seem that it would go trumpet then vial, trumpet then Vial, trumpet then vial, etc. How would you explain the potential discrepancy between Rev 8:8, where 1/3 of the sea was turned to blood and 1/3 of the creatures in it died, and Rev 16:3 where every living thing in the sea died? BTW, what you are describing is one of the eschatological hypotheses, where each seal, trumpet and bowl is matched up and they occur 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3 et c. |
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The intention behind this board is that watching Christians could have a place to freely express their thoughts. There are a number of other forums (not naming names) that revolve around very specific prophetic doctrines and if you disagree you get kicked off the plantation so to speak. I definitely don't want that here. Please feel free to share.
