Pieces of the Puzzle- a possible re-arrangement?
Sept 11, 2017 13:46:29 GMT -6
watchmanjim likes this
Post by gkp on Sept 11, 2017 13:46:29 GMT -6
I have been a believer for many years but it was only sixteen years ago today that I finally felt strongly that I could no longer put a study of Revelation off for a future time. Like so many other people I felt the significance of the tragic events of that day and was certain that God was speaking to us. Since the early seventies I had left organized religion, with a feeling of sadness and often guilt. Eventually I got used to being on the "outside". My wife and I have raised our family without a steady connection to a local church. Our few excursions back always were disappointing. Believe me, I am not promoting this course for anyone. I'm still sure that a family of believers that meet together to worship and learn and support each other is a blessing for any believer. The only reason I bring this up is because my search to understand Revelation was a personal journey apart from the guidance of books, sermons, lectures, and all the other tools out there. When I stumbled on remarkable ideas and tried to share them with Chritians I knew, I was tolerated but then I was always met with a "deer in the headlights" look. So I kept studying and learning and sharing with my precious family. My goal was never to know the day or the hour - it was simply to know my God better. The greatest thing in Revelation I have found is that God is greater, kinder, and much more patient than I ever dreamed. One of the unexpected results of my path is that as I followed it with no pre-conceived ideas, I was a blank canvas ready to receive whatever God had for me. Some of my tentative conclusions don't match with the conclusions of many of the good members of this wonderful group. I have been willing to listen and learn. You all have made me re-examine my stance on a lot of issues. This is a bit uncomfortable but I am interested in the truth rather than what I have become comfortable with.
The reason for this thread is to share with you a few of the ideas I found that I just can't let go of. Perhaps you can help me by pointing me to verses I have not considered. If you have better ideas, then I will be grateful to you for helping me out. Because this is not a lecture and your time is valuable, I will jump in as early as I can but without a doubt red flags will rise quickly. I will answer questions you will have. Here goes..deep breath,
Assume for the next few minutes that the seven trumpets do not represent a future process that happens after the Rapture. Assume for a minute that it is an on-going process of waking people up and getting them to die to the old life and by the grace of God through the work of Christ come into His Own family. If this is so, then maybe all the bloodshed and trouble presented has a different meaning. From God's point of view the un-regenerate people of the world are the "walking dead." They need to die to death and this dying to rebellion and self leads to real life. I'm sorry but I have to just hit the high points. Just as a good parent hopes a disobedient child will respond to a word, the reality is that often a child ignores the word and a stiffer form of correction is required. Sometimes a spanking is the only way to bring a child to repentence when everything else has failed. I think the seven trumpets are levels of pressure brought by God on people who would rather continue a course of rebellion. By the sixth trumpet things get pretty interesting. I would like to have you consider the two witnesses differently than the regular way. Consider that they may not be men at all. Remember the restrainer of II Thess. 2. It seems to represent the the Holy Spirit working through the people of God. In Rev. 11 these two witnesses are not clearly said to be men. In verse 6 the word men is a supplied word not present in the Greek. Perhaps they represent two principles that are the foundation of God's kingdom. In Isaiah 28:17 God says: "I will make JUSTICE the measuring line and RIGHTEOUSNESS the plumb line." This idea is repeated in chapters 32, 33,and 59 as well as others I'm sure. So I have felt that these two principles have been guiding principles in the lives of God's people. Maybe the US was never completely a Christian nation but it was dominated by God fearing (respecting) people. And they voted and lived in such a way that our country prospered under the umbrella of these principles. In our lives we have seen the war on these principles to where now their influence has been weakened to the point of death in our society. The principles are not weakened but their power of influence in our society has been brought down. Enters the beast from the abyss. There are a number of beasts in this book and they rise from various places. The sea and the earth are the other places. This beast (in my opinion) is not a man. It is the principle of lawlessness and rebellion against God and His principles of righteousness and justice. It is a war we have watched and fought in for years. And right now these two principles (witnesses) lie dead in the street. In verse 9 of this chapter we read: "Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves." To me this means that God's people won't allow the Word of God to be buried in the dustbin of history. We still stand up for our faith and God's word regardless of the ridicule and mocking. Verse 10 is an exact picture of the celebration of godless people who have finally shed the awful pressure of the message of the two witnesses - our testimony of the truth. Now we get to a really good part that I have not heard anyone consider before:
Verses 11 and 12...."Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here. ' and they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them." What if it is not the witnesses who ascend? Since they are expressed through our lives, maybe this is the Rapture! Maybe the breath of life from God entering these witnesses is the newly energized message we have based on the flood of powerful world events including hurricanes, forest fires, solar flares, an eclipse, and many more. I know the word here is not the wonderful harpazo snatching word but that is not a deal breaker. It might just be a different way to describe the event for a different purpose.
In order to stick the the essentials I will pass over the rest of chapter 11. But look where that leads us - right to chapter12 and the great signs. And now since these verses can be seen as flowing in a chronological order, it opens up some new ways to see chapter 12. If the Rapture has recently happened and you are left behind and look up at the sign, you will see Jupiter and His throng safely outside the womb of Virgo- and still shining brightly and safely. (You will also see Virgin's womb empty.) And the scripture tells us the woman is in labor and the dragon is standing by to devour the child. Then verse 5 begins to take on a different meaning. It is almost like an aside to explain something for the viewer. It seems to refer back to chapter 11 and the removal of the people of God - our part of the male son. So the dragon is not standing by to devour the male son at all. He is ready to devour the unborn child or children of the woman. And now verse 6 with the woman fleeing into the wilderness takes on a new look. Consider Matt.24:19. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" Why didn't Jesus mention the lame and the blind. Seems like it would be hard for them to escape as well. So maybe this woman in chapter 12 is fleeing while still pregnant. Maybe Jesus was prophesying when he said this.
I am sorry if this thread is hard to follow. I have not backed up many statements but I have not claimed them to be true. These ideas are the fruit of countless hours seeking to understand what God is doing as He very patiently and methodically closes down this failed age and brings in a new age for His people. Thank you for considering these thoughts!
The reason for this thread is to share with you a few of the ideas I found that I just can't let go of. Perhaps you can help me by pointing me to verses I have not considered. If you have better ideas, then I will be grateful to you for helping me out. Because this is not a lecture and your time is valuable, I will jump in as early as I can but without a doubt red flags will rise quickly. I will answer questions you will have. Here goes..deep breath,
Assume for the next few minutes that the seven trumpets do not represent a future process that happens after the Rapture. Assume for a minute that it is an on-going process of waking people up and getting them to die to the old life and by the grace of God through the work of Christ come into His Own family. If this is so, then maybe all the bloodshed and trouble presented has a different meaning. From God's point of view the un-regenerate people of the world are the "walking dead." They need to die to death and this dying to rebellion and self leads to real life. I'm sorry but I have to just hit the high points. Just as a good parent hopes a disobedient child will respond to a word, the reality is that often a child ignores the word and a stiffer form of correction is required. Sometimes a spanking is the only way to bring a child to repentence when everything else has failed. I think the seven trumpets are levels of pressure brought by God on people who would rather continue a course of rebellion. By the sixth trumpet things get pretty interesting. I would like to have you consider the two witnesses differently than the regular way. Consider that they may not be men at all. Remember the restrainer of II Thess. 2. It seems to represent the the Holy Spirit working through the people of God. In Rev. 11 these two witnesses are not clearly said to be men. In verse 6 the word men is a supplied word not present in the Greek. Perhaps they represent two principles that are the foundation of God's kingdom. In Isaiah 28:17 God says: "I will make JUSTICE the measuring line and RIGHTEOUSNESS the plumb line." This idea is repeated in chapters 32, 33,and 59 as well as others I'm sure. So I have felt that these two principles have been guiding principles in the lives of God's people. Maybe the US was never completely a Christian nation but it was dominated by God fearing (respecting) people. And they voted and lived in such a way that our country prospered under the umbrella of these principles. In our lives we have seen the war on these principles to where now their influence has been weakened to the point of death in our society. The principles are not weakened but their power of influence in our society has been brought down. Enters the beast from the abyss. There are a number of beasts in this book and they rise from various places. The sea and the earth are the other places. This beast (in my opinion) is not a man. It is the principle of lawlessness and rebellion against God and His principles of righteousness and justice. It is a war we have watched and fought in for years. And right now these two principles (witnesses) lie dead in the street. In verse 9 of this chapter we read: "Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves." To me this means that God's people won't allow the Word of God to be buried in the dustbin of history. We still stand up for our faith and God's word regardless of the ridicule and mocking. Verse 10 is an exact picture of the celebration of godless people who have finally shed the awful pressure of the message of the two witnesses - our testimony of the truth. Now we get to a really good part that I have not heard anyone consider before:
Verses 11 and 12...."Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here. ' and they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them." What if it is not the witnesses who ascend? Since they are expressed through our lives, maybe this is the Rapture! Maybe the breath of life from God entering these witnesses is the newly energized message we have based on the flood of powerful world events including hurricanes, forest fires, solar flares, an eclipse, and many more. I know the word here is not the wonderful harpazo snatching word but that is not a deal breaker. It might just be a different way to describe the event for a different purpose.
In order to stick the the essentials I will pass over the rest of chapter 11. But look where that leads us - right to chapter12 and the great signs. And now since these verses can be seen as flowing in a chronological order, it opens up some new ways to see chapter 12. If the Rapture has recently happened and you are left behind and look up at the sign, you will see Jupiter and His throng safely outside the womb of Virgo- and still shining brightly and safely. (You will also see Virgin's womb empty.) And the scripture tells us the woman is in labor and the dragon is standing by to devour the child. Then verse 5 begins to take on a different meaning. It is almost like an aside to explain something for the viewer. It seems to refer back to chapter 11 and the removal of the people of God - our part of the male son. So the dragon is not standing by to devour the male son at all. He is ready to devour the unborn child or children of the woman. And now verse 6 with the woman fleeing into the wilderness takes on a new look. Consider Matt.24:19. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" Why didn't Jesus mention the lame and the blind. Seems like it would be hard for them to escape as well. So maybe this woman in chapter 12 is fleeing while still pregnant. Maybe Jesus was prophesying when he said this.
I am sorry if this thread is hard to follow. I have not backed up many statements but I have not claimed them to be true. These ideas are the fruit of countless hours seeking to understand what God is doing as He very patiently and methodically closes down this failed age and brings in a new age for His people. Thank you for considering these thoughts!
