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Post by mrsmitty on Sept 7, 2017 18:35:25 GMT -6
I am confused about the last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of the rapture happening at the last trump which appears to be before the tribulation. But in Matthew 24:28 Jesus says there will be a gathering of elect with a trumpet call at the end of the tribulation. How to reconciled these two "last trumps"?
If there is another thread that has already dealt with this, I apologize.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 21:13:21 GMT -6
Great question Mr. Smitty, and while there are a wide variety of views on Matthew 24:28-31, your observation is one that has led many to a pre-wrath view of the rapture. Alan Kurschner, Marvin Rosenthal, and Nelson Walters have discussed your question in some detail in their books...
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Post by rt on Sept 8, 2017 6:54:06 GMT -6
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Post by copperhead on Sept 15, 2017 10:29:47 GMT -6
I am confused about the last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of the rapture happening at the last trump which appears to be before the tribulation. But in Matthew 24:28 Jesus says there will be a gathering of elect with a trumpet call at the end of the tribulation. How to reconciled these two "last trumps"? If there is another thread that has already dealt with this, I apologize. One thing to keep in mind. In Revelation 1:1, it explicitly says that the Revelation is of Yeshua and that the Father had given it to Him, which in turn He gave it to an angel to give to John, and John wrote it down for us. That would imply that Paul was "out of the loop" regarding the trumpets in the Revelation when he made his last trumpet comment to the Corinthians. So he had to be referring to something else. And given that Paul was a Jewish former Rabbi and Pharisee, trained under one of the most venerated teachers of Jewish thought, Gamliel, it would not be presumptuous to assume that Paul was referring to the Last Trump of Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets). But to add a twist to this, I have recently come across many references that during a Jubilee year, which many argue is coming up in another week, that Yom Teruah is moved to the 10th of the month of Tishri on which Yom Kippur (day of atonement) falls. Much of that assertion about Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur being joined in a Jubilee year is from the Mishna regarding Leviticus 25:9. If this is true, then a removal of the righteous would not occur on the time of the Revelation 12 sign of September 23rd, but 7 days later at Yom Kippur, September 30th, when the doors of heaven are closed after being opened at Yom Teruah. Just something else to mix into the speculation regarding these end time events. |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 22, 2017 15:26:37 GMT -6
I am confused about the last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of the rapture happening at the last trump which appears to be before the tribulation. But in Matthew 24:28 Jesus says there will be a gathering of elect with a trumpet call at the end of the tribulation. How to reconciled these two "last trumps"? If there is another thread that has already dealt with this, I apologize. Hello Mrsmitty, Welcome to the Forum, Glad to have you here. I am a fellow watchman like everyone here, and am particularly interested in the Feasts and how they all point to Christ - Paul said they are a 'shadow of things to come'. There are a few threads that deal with this, but it's OK. ;-) Hope this will clear up some confusion. There is only one Last Trump. This is in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52. This is the 'Last trump' of Yom Teruah - Feast of Trumpets, that lasts two days. This is significant as it is the only feast that starts on the New Moon, and this is why it is referred to as the 'Hidden day' and the Feast No one Knows the Day or the Hour. Sometimes it's cloudy or rainy and the new moon is not sighted. by two witnesses in Jerusalem. When the two witnesses see it, and the Jewish council confirms it - they blast the Shofars 99 times. 4 distinct types of blasts - the 100th blast is the loudes and longest - and there is even a special name in Hebrew. - Tekia Hagadol. - The passage from Matthew is explicitly clear that this is the end of the tribulation. The passage even says explicitly that this is after the Abomination of Desolation - when the anti-Christ defiles the temple at the mid-point. 3 1/2 years. The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Also, the section headings are explicitly clear that these are judgement and wrath, not the rapture - this is not a wedding. The End of the Age, and The Abomination Desolation then we have verse 29. Here are multiple markers and clues from scripture that show us the many parallels between the rapture and Feast of Trumpets. ** The second Coming is connected with Day of Atonement. - List item 1 So first, we look at the historical context - we have Paul, a Jew, writing to a mixed audience. (Jewish audience with more and more Gentile believers.) Colossians 2:16-17 see 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
He is saying the feasts, and new moons, are a shadow of things to come. - Yom Teruah -Feast of Trumpets (commonly known as Rosh Hashanah) is the only feast that begins on the new Moon.
**This is significant because for all the other feasts, we know the exact day when they happen. Passover is always on a full Moon, 14th of Nisan, in the evening - twilight. Feast of Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15th. It starts at sundown, when Passover ends. Day of Atonement is always 10th of Tishri. Yom Teruah - Feast of Trumpets is two days long. Sometimes the new moon is not sighted, because it can be cloudy or raining; and this is why ‘No one knows the day or hour’. - The name in Hebrew is Yom Teruah, and the word Teruah means blast, or literally ''shout". It is known as a day of Shouting. Hmmm. 1 Thes. 4:16-17
- For centuries, Jews have understood that the resurrection will happen at Yom Teruah, and this is not an invention of modern Judaism. It is confirmed in the Talmud, [the commentary to the Tanakh,] which is believed to be the actual oral instruction God gave to Abraham. 1 Cor 15:52.
- There are exactly 7 days between Feast of Trumpets, and Day of Atonement. (perfect parallel to the Tribulation) Jews call this the Ten days of Awe, Days of Repentance. The 7 years of Tribulation will be a time of repentance for the Jews who rejected the messiah. Revelation 7:3-4 These 144,000 sealed are the Jews that are saved in the Tribulation, especially after the Abomination of Desolation, when the Temple is defiled by the Anti-Christ.
- One of the biggest themes for Yom Teruah is Day of Coronation. Kings were always coronated on Feast of Trumpets. ***Jews also believe that Yom Teruah is the Birthday of Mankind – the day Adam and Eve were created -humanity. In Hebrew, if you turn the letters around, "In the Beginning" becomes First of Tishri.
- Christ fulfilled all the first four Spring Feasts in perfect order and perfect precision. The three fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled and are thus connected with End-times events. Rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming, and Millennial reign. The next one in order is Feast of Trumpets.
- The Feast of Booths/ Sukkot will be fulfilled in the end of time. In Zechar 14:16-19 we read that all nations Jews and Gentiles will celebrate Feast of Booths, Sukkot. This is the 1000 year millennial reign; there is no connection or parallel to the rapture. No shout, no trumpets, no open door, no ‘harpazo’ rapture event, etc.
- Out of all the 7 Biblical feasts – Yom Teruah is the only one that has trumpets. **On Jubilee years, the trumpet was blown on Day of Atonement – every 50th year. Day or Atonement doesn’t have these other markers, open door, shout, trumpets, coronation of the King, etc.
- At Feast of Trumpets, two witnesses have to see the New moon/ crescent in Jerusalem, and then it is confirmed by the Jewish council. They blow 99 blasts of the Trumpet. 4 distinct types of blasts. Short and long alternating blasts, and rapid broken, staccato blasts. Then, the "Last Trumpet" is the 100th blast - the loudest and the longest. It goes as long as the trumpeter has breath. There is even a special name in Hebrew, just for the Last Trumpet -Tekia Hagadol.
- Jews believe that the Door of Heaven is opened at Feast of Trumpets and closed/ sealed at Day of Atonement. See Rev 4. 1-2.
- In Revelation 4:1-3, There is the Door of heaven opened, a voice of a Trumpet, and the words "Come up here!" The context of Rev chapters 1-3 is to seven real churches in Asia Minor - epistles, and then Christ says “Come up Here”. The church is not mentioned again until Rev 19, at the Second Coming, when Christ returns with the Church, and comes down to Earth and sets his feet on the Mount of Olives.
- ***The 'trumpets' passage in Rev 8-10 are Seven Trumpets being blown by seven different angels - Not the Trumpet of God! Same thing as the Matthew passage above. The context of these seven trumpets is judgement and wrath, horrible destruction and plagues. Rev 8-10 are Bowl Judgements and is a totally different purpose, context and separate trumpets [Angels vs 1 trumpet of God] from I Cor 15:51-52.
- ***One of the most important things left out by many prophecy teachers, is that Paul said that the Gospel was given to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Jews will not be provoked to jealousy by a huge eclipse in America, or some alleged September alignment, which by the way happens after the Feast of Trumpets. What is the point of having a ‘sharp curve’ or ‘falling rocks’ sign 2 miles after the event? None.
- Jews will be provoked to jealousy, when the resurrection happens, and the Gentile Christians are resurrected, and they missed it, and it happened on their feast. When the door of heaven is opened, and they not ushered in to the wedding chamber.
- **Jews will be provoked to jealousy when the Messiah comes with a Shout, and takes a Gentile Bride!!
During the 7 years, the bride will be ''hidden away'' in the chuppah - the wedding chamber, and their eyes will be opened when the Anti-Christ is revealed, and they will be reconciled at the Day of Atonement. 7 years later.
At the Millennium, Christ will rule as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Yeshua ha Maschiah, and all nations of the earth will celebrate the Feast of Booths, Sukkot. Zechariah 14:16-19
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 22, 2017 15:38:52 GMT -6
I am confused about the last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of the rapture happening at the last trump which appears to be before the tribulation. But in Matthew 24:28 Jesus says there will be a gathering of elect with a trumpet call at the end of the tribulation. How to reconciled these two "last trumps"? If there is another thread that has already dealt with this, I apologize. One thing to keep in mind. In Revelation 1:1, it explicitly says that the Revelation is of Yeshua and that the Father had given it to Him, which in turn He gave it to an angel to give to John, and John wrote it down for us. That would imply that Paul was "out of the loop" regarding the trumpets in the Revelation when he made his last trumpet comment to the Corinthians. So he had to be referring to something else. And given that Paul was a Jewish former Rabbi and Pharisee, trained under one of the most venerated teachers of Jewish thought, Gamliel, it would not be presumptuous to assume that Paul was referring to the Last Trump of Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets). But to add a twist to this, I have recently come across many references that during a Jubilee year, which many argue is coming up in another week, that Yom Teruah is moved to the 10th of the month of Tishri on which Yom Kippur (day of atonement) falls. Much of that assertion about Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur being joined in a Jubilee year is from the Mishna regarding Leviticus 25:9. If this is true, then a removal of the righteous would not occur on the time of the Revelation 12 sign of September 23rd, but 7 days later at Yom Kippur, September 30th, when the doors of heaven are closed after being opened at Yom Teruah. Just something else to mix into the speculation regarding these end time events. Hello Copperhead, "I have recently come across many references that during a Jubilee year, which many argue is coming up in another week, that Yom Teruah is moved to the 10th of the month of Tishri on which Yom Kippur (day of atonement) falls. Much of that assertion about Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur being joined in a Jubilee year is from the Mishna regarding Leviticus 25:9." I don't want to be dogmatic or combative but hope to clarify a bit. ;-) The teaching that the Yom Teruah is moved or changed or postponed comes from a 'dream' of some you-tube woman named Melissa with a webcam. The feasts are ''Moadim" set times fixed by God and they don't move or change. Rosh Hashanah is the head of the civil year - not religious year, and there is a theory that the head of the civil year moves. This has nothing to do with Feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur, - the Ten days of Awe are not moved or changed. Also, Paul could not have been referring to the Trumpets in Revel 8-10 because 1 Corinthians was written approx. 35 years before the revelation was even given to John in Revelation. blessings - Maranatha.
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