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Post by yardstick on Oct 6, 2017 13:28:40 GMT -6
I really think the year length, day length, and/or moon cycle are going to change significantly during the Trib. That's why the AC will "seek to change times and laws" because things will be messed up. Thus, I don't think there is anyway based on our calendar to make the days fit. All we can go off of are what we see occurring in the heavens and try to match things up there. Thats a good point...if the days are shortened by 1/3 to 16 hours, the current 1260/1290 days will be more like 840/860...wonder what happens if we plug those timeframes in excel? Eh-hem (cough cough) yardstick gesundheit *hands mike a drink of water* cover your mouth when you cough, please oh, and I am going to disagree with you about the days. A day is still a day. Though I can see maybe why the AC might want to change the times and law, if this occurs... |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 6, 2017 16:46:44 GMT -6
Thats a good point...if the days are shortened by 1/3 to 16 hours, the current 1260/1290 days will be more like 840/860...wonder what happens if we plug those timeframes in excel? Eh-hem (cough cough) yardstick gesundheit *hands mike a drink of water* cover your mouth when you cough, please oh, and I am going to disagree with you about the days. A day is still a day. Though I can see maybe why the AC might want to change the times and law, if this occurs... I think what he means though is that from a celestial perspective the actual timeframe of planets movements would be shortened, so we need to see what happens when 61,000 hours (2550 days x 24 hours) is changed to 84,000 hours (2550 days x 16 hours). Then see if there are things that occur in the heavens that coincide with different dates within the new timeframe. I think the *only* way for it to work is that the moon cycle changes... or the moon becomes invisible so that new months cannot be based on the first sighting of it. This is a possibility based on the numerous passages describing "the day of the Lord" as a dark day and the sun and moon being darkened. |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 6, 2017 17:10:45 GMT -6
gesundheit *hands mike a drink of water* cover your mouth when you cough, please oh, and I am going to disagree with you about the days. A day is still a day. Though I can see maybe why the AC might want to change the times and law, if this occurs... I think what he means though is that from a celestial perspective the actual timeframe of planets movements would be shortened, so we need to see what happens when 61,000 hours (2550 days x 24 hours) is changed to 84,000 hours (2550 days x 16 hours). Then see if there are things that occur in the heavens that coincide with different dates within the new timeframe. I think the *only* way for it to work is that the moon cycle changes... or the moon becomes invisible so that new months cannot be based on the first sighting of it. This is a possibility based on the numerous passages describing "the day of the Lord" as a dark day and the sun and moon being darkened. I think I understand the issue of the hours conversion (and I like the 16 hour hypothesis); however, please recall that a full revolution of the earth around its axis is what is defined as a day. If the earth spins faster, the day shortens, right? But it is still one revolution of the earth. (Alternatively, the diameter of the earth could shrink). If the earth spins faster, this would account for a loss of hours during a day/night - 4 each, while still keeping 2550 days for the Trib. If the earth's rotation around its axis were to speed up, then we would get more days per solar year, not fewer. That would definitely skew the seasons, but not the day count. In the case of months, now we are talking about a full revolution of the moon around the earth. The particular phase of the moon occurs when the moon is found in a different location in its revolution during the same period of rotation of the earth, right? So a speeding up of the moon would reduce the number of days in a month, wouldn't it? Essentially the moon would have to get closer to the earth to speed up. That means the earth's gravity would have to increase or the mass of the moon would have to decrease so it could fall into a lower orbit. Similarly, in the case of the solar year, to shorten the solar year would require the earth's speed to increase as it goes around the sun. This would be a property of the sun's gravitation combined with centripetal force, generally requiring the earth to move closer to the sun to gain speed in the same manner as the aforementioned moon example. Getting closer to the sun - well, I don't need to explain what that would do to the earth, since we are theoretically at the 'ideal' distance as it is. If days were to get shortened, what do you think would be necessary to demonstrate the solar year changing from 365.25~ to 360 to coincide with the lunar year again? It may have happened before, and if so, is a plausible explanation. It also would not require relatively drastic celestial changes. For my part, I am of the opinion that the 'days were shortened' has to do with the Trib being set to 2550 days when it should have been longer, though I could be convinced otherwise. |
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Post by mike on Oct 6, 2017 17:38:46 GMT -6
MissusMack08 "she gets me" 😂 yardstick I did mean something like that. Of course I expected you to figure it out and tell me I was wrong. "Whaddaya think I axed u 4!" Cracking myself up here. Look we're trying to figure GOD! here so I'm back to the "cooked spaghetti please meet my walls" model. I figured the days would still be 1260/1290 but if they or any segment of them were 16 hours it would literally change the seasons. No not winter, spring, summer, fall but the lunar cycle change. If something sped up the earth that much and the moon wasn't affected (unlikely) then the feasts would also come closer together on essence changing seasons. Since I'm vertically challenged I figured the math nerd guru could maybe help 
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Post by yardstick on Oct 6, 2017 17:44:41 GMT -6
mike What are you trying to figure out? How the days could be shortened during the Tribulation?
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 6, 2017 17:46:59 GMT -6
I think what he means though is that from a celestial perspective the actual timeframe of planets movements would be shortened, so we need to see what happens when 61,000 hours (2550 days x 24 hours) is changed to 84,000 hours (2550 days x 16 hours). Then see if there are things that occur in the heavens that coincide with different dates within the new timeframe. I think the *only* way for it to work is that the moon cycle changes... or the moon becomes invisible so that new months cannot be based on the first sighting of it. This is a possibility based on the numerous passages describing "the day of the Lord" as a dark day and the sun and moon being darkened. I think I understand the issue of the hours conversion (and I like the 16 hour hypothesis); however, please recall that a full revolution of the earth around its axis is what is defined as a day. If the earth spins faster, the day shortens, right? But it is still one revolution of the earth. (Alternatively, the diameter of the earth could shrink). If the earth spins faster, this would account for a loss of hours during a day/night - 4 each, while still keeping 2550 days for the Trib. If the earth's rotation around its axis were to speed up, then we would get more days per solar year, not fewer. That would definitely skew the seasons, but not the day count. In the case of months, now we are talking about a full revolution of the moon around the earth. The particular phase of the moon occurs when the moon is found in a different location in its revolution during the same period of rotation of the earth, right? So a speeding up of the moon would reduce the number of days in a month, wouldn't it? Essentially the moon would have to get closer to the earth to speed up. That means the earth's gravity would have to increase or the mass of the moon would have to decrease so it could fall into a lower orbit. Similarly, in the case of the solar year, to shorten the solar year would require the earth's speed to increase as it goes around the sun. This would be a property of the sun's gravitation combined with centripetal force, generally requiring the earth to move closer to the sun to gain speed in the same manner as the aforementioned moon example. Getting closer to the sun - well, I don't need to explain what that would do to the earth, since we are theoretically at the 'ideal' distance as it is. If days were to get shortened, what do you think would be necessary to demonstrate the solar year changing from 365.25~ to 360 to coincide with the lunar year again? It may have happened before, and if so, is a plausible explanation. It also would not require relatively drastic celestial changes. For my part, I am of the opinion that the 'days were shortened' has to do with the Trib being set to 2550 days when it should have been longer, though I could be convinced otherwise. Well, that's fine if whatever I said is theoretically impossible. But, Yardstick, I still don't feel like we are quite on the same page yet. The planets don't change their courses based on earth having a different amount of hours in the day, so whatever conjunctions or whatever may be occurring up there that may coincide with the 7 year narrative (still based on day counts, but 16 hour days, for example), those might occur on different days (earlier) if the earth's day is shortened by 1/3. So if we're looking at things occurring up there and they don't line up with, for example, Passover of 2021, but something interesting occurs a few or so months earlier that would have some meaning of Passover at that time, maybe when the celestial event DOES take place, it actually would be Passover based on the new calendar that's occurring at that time, because the times and laws had changed. Is this making sense? Help me mike , help me. Edit: lol, you already were trying before I asked! |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 6, 2017 17:55:02 GMT -6
Sorry MM, I am a little confused about what you guys are trying to figure out.
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Post by mike on Oct 6, 2017 18:05:00 GMT -6
Yes missusmack08 it makes sense to me.
So tomorrow is Saturday and the day is 24 hours and I think the moon is just past full I believe...for argument sake let's say it's full. The next full moon is 30 days away (technically on Nov 4).
However in a 16 hour day the 30 day moon cycle is changed, right? Since I don't have paper right now and limited brain power, wouldn't the moon be full every 37.5 days? So the feast days stay the same at the moon phase or do they change with the 37+ days?
Now the earth may not circle the sun at any different speed, so the stars would still be in their proper place just on different days
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 7, 2017 2:02:16 GMT -6
I really think the year length, day length, and/or moon cycle are going to change significantly during the Trib. That's why the AC will "seek to change times and laws" because things will be messed up. Thus, I don't think there is anyway based on our calendar to make the days fit. All we can go off of are what we see occurring in the heavens and try to match things up there. Hello Missusmack. ;-)
When we think/remember that the Feasts are 'moadim' appointed times - it makes more sense to me that he would try to create or change holidays - **like celebrating Iad or rammadan, or putting something else in place of Day of Atonement. [think how the pope put Christmas on the pagan holiday of the sun God -December 25th].
He can't change the length of days - think about it folks - we're talking about the creator of the universe who made all these stars and constellations- and and the AC changing length. Also, the days are given to us in Daniel and Revelation for a reason - we may not be able to figure them out, or connect the dots.
I also get that it's OK, to speculate and look at scenarios -- You all know I like to do that. However We can eliminate scenarios when they violate other clear scripture, or violate God's attributes. That's why we can eliminate any scenarios involving pyramids as having the clues for the rapture. People were stoned in the OT for being involved in the Occult/ idolatry.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 7, 2017 15:21:44 GMT -6
I really think the year length, day length, and/or moon cycle are going to change significantly during the Trib. That's why the AC will "seek to change times and laws" because things will be messed up. Thus, I don't think there is anyway based on our calendar to make the days fit. All we can go off of are what we see occurring in the heavens and try to match things up there. Hello Missusmack. ;-)
When we think/remember that the Feasts are 'moadim' appointed times - it makes more sense to me that he would try to create or change holidays - **like celebrating Iad or rammadan, or putting something else in place of Day of Atonement. [think how the pope put Christmas on the pagan holiday of the sun God -December 25th].
He can't change the length of days - think about it folks - we're talking about the creator of the universe who made all these stars and constellations- and and the AC changing length. Also, the days are given to us in Daniel and Revelation for a reason - we may not be able to figure them out, or connect the dots.
I also get that it's OK, to speculate and look at scenarios -- You all know I like to do that. However We can eliminate scenarios when they violate other clear scripture, or violate God's attributes. That's why we can eliminate any scenarios involving pyramids as having the clues for the rapture. People were stoned in the OT for being involved in the Occult/ idolatry.
The AC can change the laws around the length of days IF the actual length of days IS changed already. I'm not saying the AC will have the power to literally change the amount of hours in a day, month and/or year, but if those things DO change from God allowing things in the universe to affect how the earth rotates or how the moon and earth orbit around the earth and sun, respectively, then laws describing the length of a day, month, year will have to be changed to reflect the new reality. The AC may also make it illegal to celebrate religious holidays and enact his own, but that is not what I'm talking about here. Extra planetary forces that we may not know about could come into the inner solar system and affect how earth rotates or orbits the sun (day and year length affected) or how the moon orbits the earth (month length and when moedim occur affected). Computers all all over the world do their work based on a 24 hour clock and the other parameters of our year cycles. People go work in the morning and come home in the evening and most work is done during daylight hours, generally speaking. If the day was caused to be shortened to 16 hours (literally, the earth rotation sped up such that between sunsrises would be 16 hours, not 24), this would mess up how the world currently functions. Would a "day" still be 24 hours long? Or would the day need to be changed to 16 hours? Would a month still be around 30 days? Or, for those trying to determine the moedim, would the first day of the month still begin at the sighting of the new moon even though it might take 37 16 hour days to see it? |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 7, 2017 16:14:24 GMT -6
Sorry MM, I am a little confused about what you guys are trying to figure out. Trying again... ok. Just going to have to try to do it using examples. (In this example, I'm assuming everything stays the same EXCEPT the rotation of earth increases to such that it only takes 16 hours between sunsets and that days will be counted as sunset to sunset. Minutes and hours still contain the same units of time, and the earth is still orbiting the sun at its current speed. I'm realizing this is important to point out). Right now when we look ahead in the future about timelines, it is based on the premise that the amount of time in a day will still be 24 hours. So when the Bible says 1260 days, it would mean 1260 x 24 hours = 30,240 hours of prophetic time. But, the days are said to be "shortened" during the Tribulation. What if that means, literally, the length of a day is shortened? Let's assume it does and is shortened to 16 hours (by 1/3, as per Rev). Lets say the Tribulation begins on Nov 1, 2017 just as an example. No matter how many hours are in a day, a day is still defined in the Bible as evening and morning (so sunset to sunset). So no matter what, even if the hours in a day change, 1260 days from Nov 1, 2017 will ALWAYS be April 13, 2021, as long as a day is based on when the sun sets (not based on actual passage of time, like 24 hours). However, if the amount of time in a day were changed to only be 16 hours, then between Nov 1, 2017 and April 13, 2021 would only be 20,160 hours. That's over 10,000 hours fewer than the amount of hours based on a 24 hour day. If you were comparing this time to a CURRENT calendar based on 24 hour days, 20,160 hours is equal to 840 days and would place April 13, 2021 occurring at Feb 18, 2020 (that's over a year SOONER based on the current 24 hour day calendar). How quickly planets orbit the sun in our solar system is not affected by how the earth rotates on its axis. The time it takes Jupiter, for example, to move from one constellation to another and then retrograde there takes about 11 months from earth's prospective. But that's 11 months of 24 hour days, so roughly 11 x 30 x 24 = *roughly* 7,920 prophetic hours. If a day becomes only 16 hours long, it would take Jupiter roughly 16.5 months to travel to a new constellation and retrograde there. When alignments occurring in the heavens would come together would change from earth's perspective if the amount of time in a day were to be reduced to 16 hours. If if we were to look ahead and see that JUST FOR EXAMPLE, an alignment occurs on Feb 18, 2020 that would seem to go along with the narrative of Daniel and Revelation of what should be occurring in the earth after 1260 days from the start of the Trib and other alighnments seem to occur for dates using the 16 hour days premise, then we could say, "it looks like the days are shortened by 16 hours." Then we could build a timeline based on that. But it all depends on recognizing what heavenly signs are there, when they occur and understanding exactly what they mean such that you could line them up with what *we think* is going to be occurring on the earth, in order to figure out how much the days are shortened. Yes, it's super complicated and more just a mental exercise. I don't think we could actually figure it out now that I'm thinking it through using an example. Like I said at the beginning, this would just be assuming the earth's rotation was changed and nothing else. If the earth's orbit around the sun were to speed up or slow down, then that would change how we perceive the celestial events and we couldn't even use our current models to predict when alignments would occur in the heavens. Also, we wouldn't know WHEN the shortening of the days would occur. Would it start the moment the Trib started? Unlikely. If it didn't start for several weeks, months or years into the Trib, i would think there is no way we could figure out a timeline. If something comes into our solar system and throws off earth's rotation or orbit around the sun, how do we know it won't affect the other planets in a similar way and screw up our ability to predict future alignments? "The heavens will be shaken." Making timelines assumes EVERYTHING stays the same for the entire period, and we just don't know that. This was a fun exercise, but I think I just convinced myself that timelines are FUTILE 😜 |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 7, 2017 18:39:56 GMT -6
The only wrench I have to throw in your gears is that if a day is shortened to 16 hours (1 revolution of the earth), you will get more days in a single year, unless the year is kept the same length: 365.25 days, in which case, the seasons (winter, summer, et al) will be substantially different after only a couple months. In other words, you'll have winter in May, instead of December for instance. Summer will occur in November, et c.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 8, 2017 12:57:05 GMT -6
The only wrench I have to throw in your gears is that if a day is shortened to 16 hours (1 revolution of the earth), you will get more days in a single year, unless the year is kept the same length: 365.25 days, in which case, the seasons (winter, summer, et al) will be substantially different after only a couple months. In other words, you'll have winter in May, instead of December for instance. Summer will occur in November, et c. Yes, that is what would happen. Everything would be thrown off from our daily, monthly, and yearly perspective. Things would have to be redefined. Then you'd have to figure out what the Bible means. Does "time, times and half a time" refer to literally 3 1/2 revolutions around the sun? Or do you simply break that down into days based on a 360 day biblical year? If you're simply counting days, it doesn't matter how many "years" go by. But it if you assume 1260 days also equals 3 1/2 revolutions around the sun (and for that matter, 42 30-day months), then "except the days be shortened, no flesh would be saved" must mean something other than the days (hours in a day) literally being shortened. |
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Post by mike on Oct 8, 2017 13:00:37 GMT -6
Yes MissusMack08 I have often contemplated the 1260 (or 1290 doesn't matter) is shortened to 800 or 1000 or something. But then we have scripture in conflict, so it is more likely the hours per day are less or there something else God has chosen to hide from us for now |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 8, 2017 21:16:04 GMT -6
I am still gonna go with there is supposed to be more than just 7 years of tribulation, but its been shortened to 7.
Spiritual basis for this is there are 6000 years worth of judgement built up (for unbelievers) - all reduced to 7 years?
How intense would it be for judgement to go on longer than that? No flesh would survive, indeed.
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