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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 25, 2018 15:06:31 GMT -6
So one thing i notice...satan is not seen in the Revelation 4-5 throneroom scenes. This is interesting, though it probably doesn't prove anything.... Also in Job 1, we see Satan came and went in Heaven and didn't stay there all the time. Also we see that he comes on a day when the Sons of God presented themselves before the Lord. Intetesting....are there holidays or special days in Heaven for angels?
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Post by mike on Sept 25, 2018 15:17:15 GMT -6
Is there anything to support that idea Jim? That angelic or demonic being present themselves?
Is that OT only?
If we read Rev in chiastic form then Rev 12 already happened before 4-5, therefore he was shown the door
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 26, 2018 9:44:54 GMT -6
Mike i agree with member rt that Revelation 4 and 5 show the moment on time when Jesus presented Himself in Heaven as the Lamb that was slain. If that's true, John as the prophetic viewer would have been whisked back in time "in the Spirit" to view that moment. Rev 4 in that case shows Heaven as it was before the resurrection of Christ, Rev 5 shows the moment the triumphant Lamb shows up in Heaven having become worthy to open the scroll. Scripturally i have a hard time seeing Rev 4 and 5 any other way but i could be wrong. Rt has laid out her Revelation system of understanding in other threads. I'm not sure i agree with all her conclusions but her concept generally makes sense to me, esp the Rev 4 and 5 part.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 21:23:48 GMT -6
So a year later..... This is still an interesting and relevant question regarding Revelation Chapter 12. I have always been fascinated by the high council and satan's involvement in it. One of the many topics that my Sunday school teacher never wanted to touch with a ten foot pole😀 |
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 28, 2018 21:06:47 GMT -6
Is there anything to support that idea Jim? That angelic or demonic being present themselves? Is that OT only? I Mike--the only thing that comes to mind is in Job. |
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Post by venge on Oct 18, 2018 13:13:27 GMT -6
I have wondered why God has not previously expelled satan, as you said. Excellent question. I would be hesitant to say it's because he hasn't sinned yet. I'm certainly open to discussing that, but it seems counterintuitive and opposite of what seems to be the case.
In John chapter 12, Jesus starts talking about his death and what it means. In verse 23, we see him discuss his lifting up (him being raised on the cross, symbolic of Moses's serpent staff, that with his death he brings salvation to the world)
Jesus is then glorified at chapter 17:1-5
How does this relate to Satan? Oh I'm getting to it =P
Satan could NOT be cast out from heaven TILL Christ was glorified. Now that Christ was glorified, Satan is cast as we see below.
In John 12:28 we see God glorify Christ.
Once this is done, Jesus comments to the people that heard it saying:
The reason being, was that once Christ had died, Christ inherited the power over death. That power belonged to Satan. The wages of sin is death right? Until Christ had died, Satan had this power. In order for Christ to have power over life and death, he must die.
So Christ died to take the power from Satan so that we could have eternal life through faith. So when does Satan get cast out? Just then! At Christ death. Take a look back in John 12.
Satan is cast out when Christ is lifted up as Christ inherits the power over death from Satan; casting him out of heaven. This is why when we get to Paul he states the devil is already here now at his time in Ephesians 6:11-12
We can even look back at Ephesians 2:2 where Christ had already died for us and in so, we are alive in Christ. Paul says,
We walked according to Satan as he had the power of death, now that Christ died, Satan has lost that power and is cast out. That is why we see the following in Rev 12:
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 18, 2018 18:02:26 GMT -6
Hi venge, I can see for sure WHY satan would be cast down out of heaven once Christ was glorified and took the Seat in Heaven. Jesus over came Death and we see this theme of death and darkness vs Life and Light by means of a battle for man. Christ ascending into Heaven is the first step to this overtaking of an evil "kingdom" reign on earth(beasts,babylons, wicked kings etc) but it began in Heaven, as they say His Kingdom Come His Will e done, on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
I will add this though: your interpretation/understanding above defines and depicts the first 2 seals. First rider, being the power to over come and conquer the enemy thru the Power of the Holy Spirit, over the next rider which is the one who to takes peace away.. and in saying this about the the first 2 seals, this means that Rev 12 is also a recap of the picture in the heavens in regards to the spiritual battle (ya know the ones mentioned in Eph 6, the powers and principalities..) and satan being cast down..
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Post by venge on Oct 19, 2018 17:14:36 GMT -6
Barbiosheep
But peace hasn’t been taken yet. If it had and the second seal was already opened, we’d be in war. And in that regards, war continues till the end for desolations are to happen. If it is opened, which I don’t believe, we would be in constant war till the end. But that doesn’t describe the world today.
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Post by bowman on Jun 1, 2019 20:39:58 GMT -6
High speculation coming your way. Just go with me with it. Something I've always wondered... why does God allow Satan a place in His council (in His presence) to accuse the brethren night and day if iniquity was already found in Satan? Assuming God doesn't or can't allow iniquity in His presence. Is there any possible way that Satan has NOT technically sinned yet? Like, he deceives by telling partial truths that lead people/angels to jump to iniquitous conclusions (like in the garden), but he doesn't actually sin? Can it be possible? So on earth, there are demons which, in my opinion and experience, are not fallen angels. I suspect like many others that they are the hybrid nephilim souls that died in the flood. Satan was not part of the angels that created them or he'd be locked up in the abyss right now too. So demons are already evil and probably don't take much provoking to mess with humans and lead themalong false doctrines and into sinful lifestyles.
Actually, Satan is locked up in the abyss right now, according to scripture...
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Post by Natalie on Jun 1, 2019 20:43:27 GMT -6
bowman, I am going to kindly suggest you let this go for now. You've already gotten threads locked for pushing this issue.
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Post by bowman on Jun 1, 2019 20:46:23 GMT -6
bowman , I am going to kindly suggest you let this go for now. You've already gotten threads locked for pushing this issue.
So many threads have already been started on the topic...showing an interest in it.
Just trying to inject some life into this dying forum in which most of the posts are 2+ years old...
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Post by Natalie on Jun 1, 2019 20:51:59 GMT -6
bowman , I am going to kindly suggest you let this go for now. You've already gotten threads locked for pushing this issue.
So many threads have already been started on the topic...showing an interest in it.
Just trying to inject some life into this dying forum in which most of the posts are 2+ years old...
It may look like it's dying to you, but we have become a family here. Maybe not many post since the excitement of 9/23 past, but the ones who do really care about each other, even those who disagree on a lot of things. Please, feel free to "inject some life," but do it in a respectful way. And be willing to learn. That's what's important to us here....learning, studying, watching for Jesus to return, and loving each other as Christ loves us. It's not always easy, but it's worth it. |
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Post by sawdy on Jun 1, 2019 21:01:59 GMT -6
Just trying to inject some life into this dying forum in which most of the posts are 2+ years old... I'm sorry to say that you are sadly mistaken. Instead of view the forum in regards to threads, try viewing recent posts. Between the recent posts on a couple of topics that the majority of the forum are following or on the shout box, there is daily activity of more than a couple of posts. It is enough posting to keep me engaged and learning for two years now. I am thankful to all those who regularly post- too many to shout out- and those who make a guest appearance from time to time. Thank you for your continual discussion; they have helped me grow in my faith and to keep my eyes and walk focused on Jesus. (God bless the continued discussion for another two years ☺🙏) |
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Post by bowman on Jun 1, 2019 21:11:27 GMT -6
Just trying to inject some life into this dying forum in which most of the posts are 2+ years old... I'm sorry to say that you are sadly mistaken. Instead of view the forum in regards to threads, try viewing recent posts. Between the recent posts on a couple of topics that the majority of the forum are following or on the shout box, there is daily activity of more than a couple of posts. It is enough posting to keep me engaged and learning for two years now. I am thankful to all those who regularly post- too many to shout out- and those who make a guest appearance from time to time. Thank you for your continual discussion; they have helped me grow in my faith and to keep my eyes and walk focused on Jesus. (God bless the continued discussion for another two years ☺🙏)
I'm wondering if you would have replied to this post if it was not for me.....hmmm...  |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 1, 2019 21:29:32 GMT -6
bowman, of course she is replying, she is coming to the defense for this family here in response to something that is NOT part of the topic of this thread. Is that your goal? Get everyone to notice YOU, or to study the Word?
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