|
|
Post by cwood85 on Aug 31, 2017 20:44:05 GMT -6
***If this thread in not under the proper topic please feel free to move đ
I was having a discussion with my mom about the Revelation 12 sign. She is not convinced that what is happening on September 23rd is what is being described in Revelation 12. I am no bible scholar and do not wish to convince her or make her believe. She has to do that and believe it for herself. This is in regards to a couple statements she made and I am not knowledgeable enough to have an educated answer.
Her counter to the sign is that what chapter 11 states has to happen first because chapter 12 starts with the word And. She says this shows that it is a continuation of thought/events from chapter 11 (the two witnesses). So I researched this and the word And is in the original Greek. Her and my Aunt agree on this.
In my understanding, Revelation is not entirely in order. I have read through it a lot and researched this quite a bit and it certainly does not seem in order from Begining to end.
Her other counters to the sign is she believes there is no great tribulation, the anti christ was Nero because of all the Christians he killed, and she believes Jesus only comes back once and all the wrath listed in Revelation is only for the Jews (I know...) she does believe we are raptured when he comes to be taken from Armageddon and kept from that and then we reign with Him on Earth. But she does not believe that Revelation is stating there will be mass deaths and wraths becuase much of that has already happened by mass plagues and similar.
Thoughts, information, anything lol?
|
|
|
|
Post by barb84 on Aug 31, 2017 21:00:16 GMT -6
I understand how you feel. I get the "look" from my husband when I talk about it. My pastor doesn't seem to take it seriously, either. Time will tell.
|
|
|
|
Post by whatif on Aug 31, 2017 21:06:38 GMT -6
Hi, cwood85! I really liked the chart that Scott Clark showed during the Hear the Watchman Conference recently. Here's a screenshot of it, followed by the link to the video.
Source: "Scott Clarke | 2017 Conference Presentation | Revelation 12 / September 23 & MORE!" Scott Clarke Channel, YouTube, 28 August 2017,
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Aug 31, 2017 22:03:08 GMT -6
It's really frustrating when people we love don't take us seriously, or our topics seriously, when we present them.
Regarding the "And" I would like to hear someone more familiar with the Greek take a stab at that.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 31, 2017 22:36:44 GMT -6
(sorry whatif, I still can't quote correctly..)
cwood, here my shot at this:
from biblehub: (First of all not all Bible translations have the word And, but King James does, so...). it is the greek word "kai"
kai: and, even, also
Original Word: Îșαί
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: kai
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee)
Short Definition: and, even, also, namely
Definition: and, even, also, namely.
strong's greek:
2532 kaĂ (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) â and (also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense).
See how it is not necessarily a conjunction, but can also mean also..
I am still in the milk phase of my understanding of Revelation. but here at Unsealed I have gotten further faster in unpeeling the layers of this Book...Prayer helps. Also, reread often, over and over and over...get things memorized, or at least title your chapters as to what is going on in summary. Try not to look at commentary first. If your bible is a reference Bible, try those cross references that appear in the margins. Look for key words and phrases. Mark the word Lamb for example to denote Jesus..It starts to become pretty exciting to look for key words and repeated phrases.
Maranatha!
|
|
|
|
Post by whatif on Aug 31, 2017 22:52:35 GMT -6
(sorry whatif, I still can't quote correctly..) No problem, barbiosheepgirl!  |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 1, 2017 11:57:04 GMT -6
It's really frustrating when people we love don't take us seriously, or our topics seriously, when we present them. Regarding the "And" I would like to hear someone more familiar with the Greek take a stab at that. I am no Greek expert, but this is what biblehub has: NIV: No "And" biblehub.com/niv/revelation/12.htmNLT: No "And", "Then" used biblehub.com/nlt/revelation/12.htmKJV: "And" present biblehub.com/kjv/revelation/12.htmInterlinear biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/12-1.htm"And" (Greek: "Îα᜶") biblehub.com/greek/kai_2532.htmStrong's biblehub.com/greek/2532.htm"Original Word: Îșαί Part of Speech: Conjunction Transliteration: kai Phonetic Spelling: (kahee) Short Definition: and, even, also, namely HELPS Word-studies 2532 kaĂ (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) â and ( also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense). NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin a prim. conjunction Definition and, even, alsoSTRONGS NT 2532: Îșαί (How it is used scripturally)I. It serves as a connector1. It connects single words or terms a. "as" b. it connects numerals when the first number is greater than the second c. redefines a generalization more specifically 2. It connects clauses and sentences a. universal use b. statement to statement c. joins affirmative to negative sentences d. annexes what follows from something said before, so as to be equivalent to e. with a certain rhetorical emphasis, it annexes something apparently at variance with what has been previously said; so that it is equivalent to f. it begins an apodosis, which is thus connected with the protasis...if the first thing (expressed in the protasis) be done, the second (expressed in the apodosis) will be done also: " then", " also" g. in classical Greek, it begins a question thrown out with a certain impassioned abruptness and containing an urgent rejoinder to another's speech...where the writer after the conditional protasis, interrupting himself as it were, utters the substance of the negative apodosis in a new question 3. It annexes exegetically both words and sentences ('explicative'), so that [and] is equivalent to: " and indeed", or " namely" 4. it connects whole narratives and expositions, and thus forms a transition to new matters <<----- this is what is going on at the beginning of Rev 12:1
5. a repetition which indicates that of two things one takes place no less than the other: both ... and, as well ... as, not only ... but alsoII. It marks something added to what has already been said, or that of which something already said holds good; accordingly it takes on the nature of an adverb, also
1. used simply
a. also, likewise
b. equivalent to [the word] even c. sometimes Îșαί stands in each member of the comparison, if preceded by Δጰ (it isn't in this case). before a comparative it augments the gradation, even, still d. with a participle equivalent to although
2. joined with pronouns and particles, also a. with comparative adverbs
b. added to words designating the cause, it marks something which follows of necessity from what has been previously said
c. after the interrogative ÏÎŻ (not the case here), points the significance of the question, and may be rendered besides, moreover
d. but also e. but also, and alsoMerriam-Webster's Online Dictionary" 1 âused as a function word to indicate connection or addition especially of items within the same class or type ; used to join sentence elements of the same grammatical rank or function 2 a âused as a function word to express logical modification, consequence, antithesis, or supplementary explanation b âused as a function word to join one finite verb (such as go, come, try) to another so that together they are logically equivalent to an infinitive of purpose come and see me 3 obsolete : if 4 âused in logic to form a conjunction Hope you find this helpful. |
|
|
|
Post by cwood85 on Sept 1, 2017 12:08:33 GMT -6
yardstickYes that is extremely helpful! Thank you everyone for you comments and information
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 1, 2017 13:00:01 GMT -6
The thought I had in reading what you wrote about your mom & aunt is what is their take? Many people (not saying this is the case here) just simply go by what someone else told them without looking into it deeper. I stumbled upon the Rev 12 info and immediately said can this be true? I investigated for months before coming on board with it. I first had to overcome "no one knows the day or hour" objections. Still not saying the rapture happens in concert with the sign, but there are far more supporting scriptures that we'd know the season and see the signs, then there are for one/two verses saying no one knows the hour. Only after trying to dis-prove the sign (which I've failed at as have most others here) can we investigate more to support it.
We dont need them to fully explain the whole book but how do they explain the sign in the sky? There will be an undeniable sign in the sky that matches exactly Rev 12:1-2. What is their take on that? It has to mean something doesnt it? I'd start with that, then go to Yardsticks info
|
|
|
|
Post by Rick on Sept 1, 2017 13:29:52 GMT -6
In my understanding of the Heavenly Sign, in my mind at least, it is without a doubt a sing from YHWH. I think the biggest evidence of this is that Jupiter goes into retro-grade and is there for 42 weeks. Normally Jupiter never stays in the constellation of Virgo. It's my understanding that it usually just passes though. Now I think we can all agree that only YHWH can control the stars! Just my 2cents worth God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 1, 2017 13:37:03 GMT -6
In my understanding of the Heavenly Sign, in my mind at least, it is without a doubt a sing from YHWH. I think the biggest evidence of this is that Jupiter goes into retro-grade and is there for 42 weeks. Normally Jupiter never stays in the constellation of Virgo. It's my understanding that it usually just passes though. Now I think we can all agree that only YHWH can control the stars! Just my 2cents worth God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 Actually Jupiter retrogrades every 11-12 yrs, but it does not stay in the womb of Virgo as "perfectly" as it does this time. |
|
|
|
Post by Rick on Sept 1, 2017 14:03:21 GMT -6
In my understanding of the Heavenly Sign, in my mind at least, it is without a doubt a sing from YHWH. I think the biggest evidence of this is that Jupiter goes into retro-grade and is there for 42 weeks. Normally Jupiter never stays in the constellation of Virgo. It's my understanding that it usually just passes though. Now I think we can all agree that only YHWH can control the stars! Just my 2cents worth God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 Actually Jupiter retrogrades every 11-12 yrs, but it does not stay in the womb of Virgo as "perfectly" as it does this time. Thanks Mike, I'm not much of an astronomer but I was fairly certain that it has never stayed in the womb for this length of time God Bless! 2Ti 2:15 |
|
|
|
Post by sawdy on Sept 1, 2017 15:11:14 GMT -6
yardstickGood at Math and Languages. Is there anything Yardstick isn't good at? đ€lol
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Sept 1, 2017 23:00:04 GMT -6
Maybe crocheting? (Just kidding).
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Sept 7, 2017 8:01:19 GMT -6
***If this thread in not under the proper topic please feel free to move đ I was having a discussion with my mom about the Revelation 12 sign. She is not convinced that what is happening on September 23rd is what is being described in Revelation 12. I am no bible scholar and do not wish to convince her or make her believe. She has to do that and believe it for herself. This is in regards to a couple statements she made and I am not knowledgeable enough to have an educated answer. Her counter to the sign is that what chapter 11 states has to happen first because chapter 12 starts with the word And. She says this shows that it is a continuation of thought/events from chapter 11 (the two witnesses). So I researched this and the word And is in the original Greek. Her and my Aunt agree on this. In my understanding, Revelation is not entirely in order. I have read through it a lot and researched this quite a bit and it certainly does not seem in order from Begining to end. Her other counters to the sign is she believes there is no great tribulation, the anti christ was Nero because of all the Christians he killed, and she believes Jesus only comes back once and all the wrath listed in Revelation is only for the Jews (I know...) she does believe we are raptured when he comes to be taken from Armageddon and kept from that and then we reign with Him on Earth. But she does not believe that Revelation is stating there will be mass deaths and wraths becuase much of that has already happened by mass plagues and similar. Thoughts, information, anything lol? English is a clumsily language and translating into English is not an exact science even to this day. Here is the basic meaning of Kai == and, even, also, namely (which is the word in question) Those of us who grew up with English as our only (or primarily) language â read INTO the text with our own particular bias. In this particular instance your mother and Aunt are claiming the âANDâ has to mean a continuation of what was said before. Problem is that with the word KAI â it could simply be an âattention getterâ â âALSO A Great SignâŠ.â âEven A Great SignâŠ..â âNamely A Great SignâŠ.â According to (Winers Grammar and Buttmann's Grammar Devar. ii. 2, p. 638.) âWhen used in the beginning of a sentence it generally throws an emphasis upon the word which immediately follows itâ So the word is not being used as a conjunctive statement here â but a call out or attention getter to what is following -- A GREAT SIGN. It is with slight amusement, that non-scholars try to make âhistory eventsâ appear as âthe solutionââŠ. Even when many cannot even agree on the date of when Revelation was written. The current range is between 66AD â 98AD. Hereâs the problem with the Nero theory -- here is Neroâs life span 15 December 37 AD â 9 June 68 AD. Even assuming it was written and widely distributed by 68AD; -- you have the issue with the book itself claims to be future prophecy â yet is supposed to be fulfilled shortly after written? Then most scholars take the later date as the creation â which throws Nero completely out of the picture. In the end, you simply continue to have faith in Godâs word. As the saying goes, âyou can lead a horse to water, but âŠ.â Keep praying and show new insights â but allow God to do the heavy lifting of change of thought. |
|
