doc
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Post by doc on Aug 31, 2017 10:12:33 GMT -6
Is it wrong to look for signs in the stars? We know that God, the Almighty Creator, put them there for signs (Gen 1:14) and the wise men used the stars to find the birthplace of the Messiah. Jesus told his disciples that there would be signs in the sun, moon and stars (Luke 21:25). So, at what point does it become “astrology”, which we know is forbidden? Aren’t we getting mixed messages? The Bible says it’s OK to look at the stars because God created them for signs, but most of our Christian leaders tell us not to look for signs or else we are guilty of practicing astrology! (I've been having an ongoing email discussion with a very popular radio ministry and the pastors/authors they interview. Yes, those people!)
I’m not even sure it’s unbiblical to look for specific dates. We are told that “no man knows the day or the hour”. I believe that is true! But the Bible doesn’t tell us it’s wrong to look, does it? Where does is say that? Some believe it is actually a sin against God to look for the signs in the heavens, just because the Bible says that no one can know.
Listen ... There are a lot of things (all things!) about God that we either don’t know or can’t understand completely. We will search throughout eternity and still not understand it all. (And I can't wait to begin!) Can we fathom the depths of His love, mercy or grace? Do we really understand His majesty or His power? When we try to grasp the size and wonder of the universe, don’t we come up woefully short? Of course we do! But does that mean we shouldn’t even try? Just because we will never know it all shouldn’t keep us from diligently searching and studying to deepen our understanding. Give me a break!
I could use some help on this, please! Am I on the right track?
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 31, 2017 10:23:03 GMT -6
Welcom, Doc! Its a good question you have asked. We have discussed this quite a bit over a number of threads on this forum, but my short answer is, you are correct, it is not wrong to look. As you said, Jesus specifically said there would be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. If He said there would be signs, then it is implied that we are to look for them and use them to confirm our prophetic timeline.
Astrology is the devil's counterfeit of the study of Biblical signs in the sky. The biggest difference in philosophy between the two is that in God's system, the heavens reflect what God is doing, whereas in astrology, we are told to believe that the heavens DETERMINE what happens in our lives. That is a big difference. As Christians we don't believe that the alignments of heavenly bodies cause us to be lucky in picking our lottery numbers or starting a new job, or whatever. No. We believe that the alignment of heavenly bodies gives us clues as to what God is doing in the universe. This is far different.
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Post by whatif on Aug 31, 2017 10:28:39 GMT -6
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 10:33:51 GMT -6
1. God is the creator of all things and has put himself everywhere. I seek him in the wind, in the flower, in the ocean spray. I also seek him in the sky. But I do not worship any of those things. They all lead me to him and his glory. The stars are just that: stars. Created by God - the creator. I worship the creator, not the creation.
2. Seeking God for the sake of knowing him and understanding him is different that seeking signs in order to believe. We believe- which drives us to listen for his voice. We do not seek the signs in order to believe in him.
3. Seeking signs is different than recognizing signs. I do believe that some create "a sign" in everything they see. But some signs are much clearer. Some are even prophesied to occur. If we were told that a virgin was to give birth and that this was a sign. We may or may not go about looking for virgins that give birth. But if we came upon a virgin who gave birth, we could then choose to hear the word of the lord in that sign, or ignore the word of the lord in that sign. I see no reason why that could not be true in the sky as well. Hezekiah was shown a sign of the sun going backward. That was a sign in the sky and had Hezekiah chosen to ignore it he would have missed out a great blessing. Rev 12 describes a great sign that John saw. Now we see that same sign forming in the sky and also lining up with multiple other indicators. Should we ignore the word of the lord in it?
4. Astrology is very different from astronomy - or even from star gazing. The stars are there for our enjoyment - enjoy them. I have been an amateur astronomer since I was 10. But the stars always lead me to God. When people use stars for astrological purposes they are not seeking God - they are seeking answers from nothing. They are putting their faith in objects - not the creator.
5. As to the main churches and prophecy teachers - they have much to loose if they speculate on dates and then are shown to be wrong. It is much easier to doubt than to walk in faith. Since they doubt, they can't afford do be seen even entertaining the option that a certain date or event might be a rapture. If nothing happens they can tell us how right they were and how they knew all along it was nothing. Therefore listen to them and buy their book. If they are wrong, no one will be worried about it anymore. So they only loose in this world, by walking in faith. Very sad.
6. As to "no one knows the day and the hour." You may want to read this for yourself if you have not recently. The verse seems, to me, to be applying to the verse right before it - that is the day the earth passes away. Also, things have changed since those words were spoken 2000 years ago.
7. Understanding completely? Agreed - we will have many things that are unclear in our walk with God, but that is what faith is all about. Although we do desire to understand, and we spend considerable time trying to understand, in the end we are also satisfied simply trusting God and resting in the work of Christ.
Does that help?
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doc
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Post by doc on Aug 31, 2017 10:45:27 GMT -6
Thanks, watchmanjim! Long before we started looking at the stars (for me it was a telescope first and later Stellarium) for signs, we were told not to look for a date because "no one knows the day or the hour". I've heard that all my life! If our church leaders warned us not to look just because no one could know, then why didn't they use that reasoning when it comes to knowing about God's grace, mercy, love, etc. We don't 'know' much about them either, and we can't know ... far beyond our capacity to grasp. But some day our understanding will deepen.
I am so tired of hearing 'no one knows.....', the next time I hear that I may respond with "OK. So, if that is a legitimate excuse not to look, I'm going to stop trying to learn about God's character also, because I can't know (understand) it either."
Just kidding. That is a lame excuse regardless of subject matter!
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doc
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Post by doc on Aug 31, 2017 11:04:29 GMT -6
Good reply, silentknight! We're on the same page. Short story: About 10 years ago, I bought my first telescope. This may sound kinda naïve, but I kept telling my wife that if there will be signs in the stars, I want to look for them myself. I'd take the scope out 2-3 times a week and look at the moon, find planets, etc. After months (OK, a couple years!) of this exercise, I started coming back into the house a bit frustrated, and ask my wife "WHAT AM I LOOKING FOR?!!" The stars and planets were certainly awesome, but I wanted some kind of recognizable "sign". I knew we were getting near, so I thought there would be something. It wasn't long after that when I came across Stellarium and then some websites talking about the Tetrad, Mark Biltz, Scottie Clark, etc. It's been an interesting journey without much support from anyone outside my immediate family. Now, with Unsealed and Rev12daily and a couple others, well, it just feels like I'm not alone! Kindred spirits!
Thank you!
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Post by yardstick on Aug 31, 2017 11:46:03 GMT -6
Thanks, watchmanjim! Long before we started looking at the stars (for me it was a telescope first and later Stellarium) for signs, we were told not to look for a date because "no one knows the day or the hour". I've heard that all my life! If our church leaders warned us not to look just because no one could know, then why didn't they use that reasoning when it comes to knowing about God's grace, mercy, love, etc. We don't 'know' much about them either, and we can't know ... far beyond our capacity to grasp. But some day our understanding will deepen. I am so tired of hearing 'no one knows.....', the next time I hear that I may respond with "OK. So, if that is a legitimate excuse not to look, I'm going to stop trying to learn about God's character also, because I can't know (understand) it either." Just kidding. That is a lame excuse regardless of subject matter! I Thes 5:4 implies that we will know, because we will not be surprised. Also, the statement related to not knowing the day or the hour was given prior to the giving of the Book of Revelation, which imho is the 'unsealing' of those things which were sealed in Daniel. I suspect that the day and the hour are knowable. Despite the fact that we may not be able to figure it out. Indeed, as 'knowledge increases', it becomes more likely that we will know the day and the hour! Scottie points out in the video below that one of the new testament writers potentially pinpointed the day (John) and another NT writer potentially pinpointed the hour (Paul)! We have just lacked the technology (knowledge) before the last decade or so to figure out what they were! unsealed.boards.net/thread/686/hear-watchmen-scottie-clarke
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