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Post by mrsmitty on Aug 25, 2017 22:20:29 GMT -6
With the Trump administration trying hard to broker a peace deal, it got me thinking about a question. In Daniel 9:27, is the one who signs the covenant with many neccessarely the same one who "makes desolate". In the ESV and NASB version it seems ambiguous to me since it says "He will make a strong covenant" and then "shall come one who makes desolate". Why do these versions not simply translate into "he will make desolate"?
And. If it IS the same person, then does that put the odds very low at the trump administration pulling off a peace agreement since Trump is not a likely candidate for the antichrist?
Smitty
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Post by whatif on Aug 25, 2017 22:30:33 GMT -6
Great questions, mrsmitty! And welcome to the forum! I see you are a new member!
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Post by mike on Aug 26, 2017 8:08:40 GMT -6
With the Trump administration trying hard to broker a peace deal, it got me thinking about a question. In Daniel 9:27, is the one who signs the covenant with many neccessarely the same one who "makes desolate". In the ESV and NASB version it seems ambiguous to me since it says "He will make a strong covenant" and then "shall come one who makes desolate". Why do these versions not simply translate into "he will make desolate"? And. If it IS the same person, then does that put the odds very low at the trump administration pulling off a peace agreement since Trump is not a likely candidate for the antichrist? Smitty Smitty This has been debated for a long long time. While many (perhaps most here) believe verse 27 speaks of the AC, there are some who do not. Although I lean more towards the majority (as of last week) I still am not 100% convinced as some others see the "He" refers back to Messiah. See this article for commentary watchfortheday.org/whoishe.html another convincing piece of info is Barnes commentary found on Bible Hub if your interested in reading it KJS (moderator) and I discussed this in the Olivet discourse thread as well. Welcome to the forum! |
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Post by mike on Aug 26, 2017 8:13:08 GMT -6
And I'd add that Trump is "brokering" the deal not necessarily signing off or the covenant holder. So if you interpret v. 27 as the AC I don't think Trump qualifies either. I think the US has our hands full with current disasters, those soon coming and North Korea, Iran, the EU, ISIS, etc. The 'peace' agreement is likely to be between Netanyahu, Abbas and perhaps others like Erdogan, Khameni. No clue how to spell all those names  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 9:14:28 GMT -6
Hi mrsmitty, great questions! Potential answers are long and involved, as there are differing camps as to the true meaning of the verse as Mike mentions. In my opinion it is one of the most important prophetic verses in the Bible. I realize there are differing views, and I won't debate it here, but would like to explain how I see it right now from the "he = antichrist" view. I will leave it to others to explain the other side....
I side with commentators and scholars who believe the "he" in verse 27 refers to the antichrist. This view believes the "he" refers to the "prince who is to come", and whose "people" will destroy the city and sanctuary. The "prince who is to come", the antichrist, will "make a firm", "strengthen", "confirm", "make a strong" covenant with the "many" (rabiyim, or multitude in Hebrew). The Hebrew root word for "confirm", "strengthen" et al, is "Higbir", from "Gabar". 99% of the time in the Bible when used, "gabar" means to "prevail over" in the sense of a stronger party prevailing over a weaker party, ie Israel "prevailed over" Amalek. The covenant then, is one that is forced upon weaker parties by a stronger party, and involves not just Israel (amiyim), but her neighbors as well (rabiyim).
The Hebrew transliteration then reads "he shall make desolate" (Strong's 8074, shamem), which continues the narrative with "he", the same "he" throughout the verse. The various English translations do not do justice to the Hebrew, and I depend on the Hebrew transliteration and Strong's here!
The idea that Trump will help craft a deal does not mean he is the one that will "gabar" it.....my opinion is that he may craft it, but will then turn it over to the UN to enforce or finalize it, maybe through the Office of the Quartet, which currently lacks an Executive Officer ever since Tony Blair resigned.....know any politician out of a job who might want to be appointed to Executive Officer of the Quartet?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 9:26:16 GMT -6
One other thought....Daniel Matson first suggested that Micah 5:3 is connected to Rev 12: 1-4. This is the first time I had heard of these....and thought that if true, then it is a testable hypothesis. We will know by October if we get an agreement to divide the Land or not, and if so, the celestial events will validate what we are seeing in the world.....
I felt it was important to put the hypothesis out there in advance, and this video was posted May 2016 targeting mid October for an agreement based upon Zedek leaving Virgo....the date in the video was 17 Oct (not as refined yet)
Later, in Aug 2016, after refinement with day counts to match the internal structure of Daniel's 1260,1290, 1335, the following video was posted with a more refined date of 15 Oct to potentially start the 70th week:
These do not "pick" the day of the return of Messiah, but are focused on the event which kicks off the 70th week of Daniel, which we are given a certain geopolitical event to recognize
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Post by mrsmitty on Aug 27, 2017 15:00:58 GMT -6
Thank you!
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 5, 2017 6:41:41 GMT -6
With the Trump administration trying hard to broker a peace deal, it got me thinking about a question. In Daniel 9:27, is the one who signs the covenant with many neccessarely the same one who "makes desolate". In the ESV and NASB version it seems ambiguous to me since it says "He will make a strong covenant" and then "shall come one who makes desolate". Why do these versions not simply translate into "he will make desolate"? And. If it IS the same person, then does that put the odds very low at the trump administration pulling off a peace agreement since Trump is not a likely candidate for the antichrist? Smitty Great post and great questions to ponder, discuss. I've heard for many years from many sources that the Pope would be the anti-Christ, but have thought for years that he could not be, because it seems for the Jews to 'accept' him as the Messiah, he has to be Jewish? This was the same reason why Obama could never have been, nor Sadam Hussein. Jared Kushner, however is Jewish, as is Ivanka, and his family is very very rich and powerful. I don't think it means anything necessarily, but it's just very odd that he bought a huge highrise in Manhatten and the address is 666. Just weird. I think it was purely location, but it's bizarre at the least when you consider he is the highest advisor to Trump.
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 5, 2017 11:31:19 GMT -6
Let's not neglect the concept that there are more than 1 player in the drama of the 70th week. The 2nd beast out of the earth is almost certainly Jewish. (though some say maybe Islamic). He is not the only player, though. The pope and the Catholic Church may or may not be referred to by the harlot riding on the beast. There are multiple characters, and assigning the identity to each of them is tricky to say the least.
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 3, 2017 13:54:51 GMT -6
With the Trump administration trying hard to broker a peace deal, it got me thinking about a question. In Daniel 9:27, is the one who signs the covenant with many neccessarely the same one who "makes desolate". In the ESV and NASB version it seems ambiguous to me since it says "He will make a strong covenant" and then "shall come one who makes desolate". Why do these versions not simply translate into "he will make desolate"? And. If it IS the same person, then does that put the odds very low at the trump administration pulling off a peace agreement since Trump is not a likely candidate for the antichrist? Smitty IMO, this of course does not apply to Trump or Obama.... the ten nations that sign the Covenant of the End Time, the 7th world government...agree to stop the war, or hostilities in the Mid East...This is at the start of the Last 7 Years... Daniel 9:27 imo refers to the mid point when the AC enters the Temple, and then sets up his abomination in the Holy of Holies..... then he and it make the world desolate because they deserve what they get, and even force it on people with the threat of death, so the vast majority yield..and it is desolate... even though we go on, because we follow the 2 Witnesses to the place the Lord has prepared for us..Petra IMO |
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