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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2017 9:48:40 GMT -6
I've noticed a parallel between the seventh bowl and trumpet. After the seventh trumpet:
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
Revelation 11:19 ESV
After the seventh bowl:
And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.
Revelation 16:18, 21 ESV
Also, the ESV, NIV, and NASB all say, after the seventh trumpet,
saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign.
Revelation 11:17 ESV
saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
Revelation 11:17 NASB
saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Revelation 11:17 NIV
No is to come, impling that God has came. The only major translation that says is to come is the KJV. Seeing as modern translations have access to more manuscripts, I'm going to say that is more accurate. Just some things I noticed.
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Post by socalexile on Aug 6, 2017 10:25:59 GMT -6
Not necessarily. You need to look at the texts themselves. Often the ESV, NASB, and NIV will translate according to the preconceptions of the translators as to the meaning of a text rather than what may actualy be said. Usually they throw up a footnote, but not always. One of the most stark examples is in 1 John 3:4-10, where these translations have "practice" instead of "do" as older translations have it. the word for "practice" in Greek is "prasso" (Strong's #4238): www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4238&t=KJVThe word for "do" is "poieo" (Strong's 4160): www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4160&t=KJVAnd only the word poieo appears in the text of 1 John 3:4-10. So it's not "practice" it's "do". The KJV is right on this one (and no, I'm not a KJV only guy): www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/1jo/3/9/t_conc_1162009BTW Paul admits to "practicing" sin (prasso) in Romans 7:19, when we look at the actual Greek. www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/rom/7/19/t_conc_1053019 This has terrible implications for many; they end up thinking that they must stop "practicing" sin, or stop sin altogether. Many also look down on others for habitual sins. The reality is that John is contrasting the two natures of all born-again believers here - the flesh nature does sin; the nature born of the Spirit does not. Just an example. Use several translations, including the Septuagint: www.apostolicbible.com/text.htm |
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Post by Connie on Aug 6, 2017 10:26:29 GMT -6
I've always thought both 7th bowl/7th trumpet have an element of marking a point in time. In other words, if you were stuck on earth, you'd know where you were in time because there's a transition event of the great earthquake that is so major there's never been one like it, not to mention the hundred pound hail.
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Post by whatif on Aug 6, 2017 10:53:44 GMT -6
I've noticed a parallel between the seventh bowl and trumpet. No is to come, impling that God has came. The only major translation that says is to come is the KJV. Seeing as modern translations have access to more manuscripts, I'm going to say that is more accurate. Just some things I noticed. Fascinating, Beloved! Maybe this is an indication that the Trumpets and Bowls do happen together rather than Trumpets first, Bowls second. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2017 10:54:31 GMT -6
There are a lot of parallels... compare the two, and you will notice.
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 6, 2017 12:08:46 GMT -6
There are indeed a lot of parallels. This is an issue that many people have debated over the years--and so we ask whether these things happen concurrently, or sequentially. It is confusing to be sure. It is clear that there is a parallel. Whether this means that they are actually the same event is another matter. I think this topic may have come up before, I'm not sure, but it is an important topic to cover.
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Post by Connie on Aug 6, 2017 12:41:49 GMT -6
I've noticed a parallel between the seventh bowl and trumpet. No is to come, impling that God has came. The only major translation that says is to come is the KJV. Seeing as modern translations have access to more manuscripts, I'm going to say that is more accurate. Just some things I noticed. Fascinating, Beloved! Maybe this is an indication that the Trumpets and Bowls do happen together rather than Trumpets first, Bowls second. I've always wondered if the entire book of Revelation is like that, perhaps because it's more multi-dimensional prophecy but written in a linear form. In other words, it's like opening and flattening a 3-d paper cube so now you have a flat cross shape. Meaning it makes perfect sense when seen from the heavenlies where John was watching but would be utterly confusing on earth because it would *seem* that a certain seal or trumpet or bowl was fulfilled but also seemed out of order when seen as a person still operating in our current sphere. Perhaps confusing isn't the right word because it is beautifully poetic and grand. |
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Post by whatif on Aug 6, 2017 14:24:13 GMT -6
Fascinating, Beloved! Maybe this is an indication that the Trumpets and Bowls do happen together rather than Trumpets first, Bowls second. I've always wondered if the entire book of Revelation is like that, perhaps because it's more multi-dimensional prophecy but written in a linear form. In other words, it's like opening and flattening a 3-d paper cube so now you have a flat cross shape. Meaning it makes perfect sense when seen from the heavenlies where John was watching but would be utterly confusing on earth because it would *seem* that a certain seal or trumpet or bowl was fulfilled but also seemed out of order when seen as a person still operating in our current sphere. This sounds to me a great tie-in with yardstick's thread on Math Class! Have you seen the animation of the cube that becomes a cross? It's so awesome! |
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Post by Connie on Aug 6, 2017 19:43:07 GMT -6
I've always wondered if the entire book of Revelation is like that, perhaps because it's more multi-dimensional prophecy but written in a linear form. In other words, it's like opening and flattening a 3-d paper cube so now you have a flat cross shape. Meaning it makes perfect sense when seen from the heavenlies where John was watching but would be utterly confusing on earth because it would *seem* that a certain seal or trumpet or bowl was fulfilled but also seemed out of order when seen as a person still operating in our current sphere. This sounds to me a great tie-in with yardstick's thread on Math Class! Have you seen the animation of the cube that becomes a cross? It's so awesome! Yes! And some of Chuck Missler's videos also. Explains so much but hard to grasp. |
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Post by rt on Aug 7, 2017 7:39:44 GMT -6
I believe that the effects of the trumpets and bowls and seals for that matter are similar but not precisely the same. God intensifies the effects, the seals act as a warning, the trumpets act as discipline and the bowls act as punishment. The precedent for this idea is found in Leviticus 26:14- 42. If you read the passage you will notice that there is an increasing of the intensity of the "plagues":
Vs 21- Increase the plague 7 x (as a warning/sign like the seals)
Vs 23, 24- In hostility- Strike 7x (in discipline like the trumpets)
Vs 27, 28- In Wrath- Punish 7x (as a punishment like the bowls)
The purpose is to bring about the national repentance of Israel. The path for Israel in the book of revelation is spelled out here in Leviticus. God told the nation exactly how He would respond to their rebellion, in order to humble them and bring them back into their covenant with Him. This is why the law is practiced in the millennial kingdom, so that Israel can fulfill the promise they made with God on Mt. Sinai. They will be able to perform it, because they like us in this age who make up Christ's body, will have the law written on their hearts, they will have the holy Spirit in them to help them fulfill their part of the covenant.
The seals/trumpets/bowls are similar, but each follow the other, this is in the plain reading of the revelation. The effects are very similar, because they are intensified throughout the 70th week. Like birthpains, they will deliver a rebirth of the nation of Israel.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 7, 2017 8:28:10 GMT -6
Pardon me if you have come across my question in other places. One of the main items that got me even looking at Revelation was this 7th trumpet. A friend of mine gave me a pamphlet from the Church of God during the blood moons. He was telling me there is no rapture, or at least no pre rapture. I had also just completed a precept study on 1 & 2 Thes...
Even on an english translation of the Word, using trnaslations from KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV ( I have all 4 of these),( and then there is biblehub,) Looking at how the 7th trumpet is portrayed in Revelation, How is it that people view the 7th trumpet as the same trumpet mentioned in Thes and 1 Cor 15...? I had truthseeker give me an answer, but I could use more help here. especially in light of comments here that talked about the translations of Bibles other than the KJV having some variable translations...I need full clarity here so that I can stand firm.
thanks all!
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 7, 2017 8:57:57 GMT -6
I believe that the effects of the trumpets and bowls and seals for that matter are similar but not precisely the same. God intensifies the effects, the seals act as a warning, the trumpets act as discipline and the bowls act as punishment. The precedent for this idea is found in Leviticus 26:14- 42. If you read the passage you will notice that there is an increasing of the intensity of the "plagues": Vs 21- Increase the plague 7 x (as a warning/sign like the seals) Vs 23, 24- In hostility- Strike 7x (in discipline like the trumpets) Vs 27, 28- In Wrath- Punish 7x (as a punishment like the bowls) The purpose is to bring about the national repentance of Israel. The path for Israel in the book of revelation is spelled out here in Leviticus. God told the nation exactly how He would respond to their rebellion, in order to humble them and bring them back into their covenant with Him. This is why the law is practiced in the millennial kingdom, so that Israel can fulfill the promise they made with God on Mt. Sinai. They will be able to perform it, because they like us in this age who make up Christ's body, will have the law written on their hearts, they will have the holy Spirit in them to help them fulfill their part of the covenant. The seals/trumpets/bowls are similar, but each follow the other, this is in the plain reading of the revelation. The effects are very similar, because they are intensified throughout the 70th week. Like birthpains, they will deliver a rebirth of the nation of Israel. I like this assessment rt. Though, I don't think it matters in my case as I don't intend on being here during the Trib! The increase in intensity over time makes since. |
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 7, 2017 9:00:07 GMT -6
Wait a minute... beloved user account was deleted?
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 7, 2017 22:49:40 GMT -6
Wait a minute... beloved user account was deleted? Yes, by his own decision. He said he needed to step back for a while. He has participated in the shout box since then--he's still around some. |
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Post by rt on Aug 8, 2017 7:25:32 GMT -6
Pardon me if you have come across my question in other places. One of the main items that got me even looking at Revelation was this 7th trumpet. A friend of mine gave me a pamphlet from the Church of God during the blood moons. He was telling me there is no rapture, or at least no pre rapture. I had also just completed a precept study on 1 & 2 Thes... Even on an english translation of the Word, using trnaslations from KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV ( I have all 4 of these),( and then there is biblehub,) Looking at how the 7th trumpet is portrayed in Revelation, How is it that people view the 7th trumpet as the same trumpet mentioned in Thes and 1 Cor 15...? I had truthseeker give me an answer, but I could use more help here. especially in light of comments here that talked about the translations of Bibles other than the KJV having some variable translations...I need full clarity here so that I can stand firm. thanks all! The interlinear Greek New Testament interprets the underlined in the previous passages as saying: (1 Corinthians 15:52) “In (an) instant, in (the) twinkle of (the) eye, in the last trump He shall be trumpeting for and the dead ones shall be being roused incorruptible”. And (1 Thessalonians 4:16) “That Himself the Lord, in shout of command voice, and in trumpet of God shall be descending from heaven and the dead ones in Christ shall be rising first”. Recall how the voice of Jesus sounded like a trumpet to John earlier in the revelation: Jesus is the last trumpet, He Himself shouts with the voice of the chief messenger, sounding the trumpet call to gather His followers:The seven trumpets are sounded by seven angels The last trumpet of the seven is also sounded by an angel Therefore it is not possible that the trumpets sounded by the seven angels can in any way represent the trumpet of Christ that raises the dead and those alive in Him, because it is the sound of His voice that gathers them, not the sound of angels who are given trumpets. |
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