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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2017 12:12:42 GMT -6
Hey, so I'm not taking any credit for this: I found all of this in multiple places, and I wanted to centralize it.
So, at the Great White Throne judgement, the sea gives up the dead in it. The ocean giving up it's dead makes no sense, since the dead do not stay there. Some people theorized that the 'sea' is actually the crystal sea in Heaven before God, and that saints that die in the Millennial Kingdom go there, to be judged at the Great White Throne later, and most probably acquitted.
The theory goes deeper. The crystal sea is most likely the expanse Ezekiel saw when God came to Earth. It represents the separation between God and man, and probably literally does that too. So, when Revelation says that in the new heavens and earth, that 'there is no more sea', it is saying that the crystal sea is gone- and so is the separation between man and God. I have no clue if there will be an actual ocean or not.
Just a theory, but I think it makes more sense than the ocean holding souls and not existing in the new earth (though it might not; who knows?)
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Post by whatif on Aug 5, 2017 16:06:49 GMT -6
I like that theory, Beloved! The subject was part of an older conversation we've had here, so I'll see if I can find a link to it for you to check it out.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 5, 2017 18:05:43 GMT -6
Reminds me of a southern gospel song "This is just What Heaven Means to Me" There is a line in the chorus which is a stunnning visual "upon the glassy sea":
1. A country where no twilight shadows deepen,
Unending day where night shall never be.
A city where no storm clouds ever gather,
Now this is just what Heaven means to me.
CHORUS:
What will it be when we get over yonder
And join the throng upon the glassy sea?
To greet our loved ones and crown Christ forever,
Oh, this is just what Heaven means to me.
2. And when at last we see the face of Jesus,
Before whose image other loves all flee.
And when they crown him Lord of all I'll be there,
Now this is just what Heaven means to me.
CHORUS:
3. A place where there is no misunderstanding,
And from all enmity and strife we're free.
No unkind words to wrong the heart are spoken,
Now this is just what Heaven means to me..
CHORUS:
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Post by rt on Aug 5, 2017 20:59:44 GMT -6
Hey, so I'm not taking any credit for this: I found all of this in multiple places, and I wanted to centralize it. So, at the Great White Throne judgement, the sea gives up the dead in it. The ocean giving up it's dead makes no sense, since the dead do not stay there. Some people theorized that the 'sea' is actually the crystal sea in Heaven before God, and that saints that die in the Millennial Kingdom go there, to be judged at the Great White Throne later, and most probably acquitted. The theory goes deeper. The crystal sea is most likely the expanse Ezekiel saw when God came to Earth. It represents the separation between God and man, and probably literally does that too. So, when Revelation says that in the new heavens and earth, that 'there is no more sea', it is saying that the crystal sea is gone- and so is the separation between man and God. I have no clue if there will be an actual ocean or not. Just a theory, but I think it makes more sense than the ocean holding souls and not existing in the new earth (though it might not; who knows?) I actually talk about the "sea" in my revised pre trib rapture thread, and also in my resurrection harvest thread. I agree that interpreting it to mean a literal earthly body of water makes no sense at all. I also think it was the same "sapphire pavement" that Moses saw on Mt. Sinai. Like you, I believe that it separates the souls of the righteous from the throne room in heaven until they are resurrected from it. (The sea gives up it's dead) . When John describes what he sees after entering into the temple in heaven, he sees all those things which served as the pattern for the earthly tabernacle and temple. The 7 lamps of fire, the living creatures, the altar of incense, and the "sea". In the earthly temple the "sea" or Brazen Laver as it was called, was used by the priests to cleanse themselves so that they could enter into service within the temple. I think within the crystal sea, is the holding place for righteous souls, where paradise also is, and that when these souls are resurrected they receive their resurrected bodies, and pass out of the sea into the temple in heaven. I think all these levels of heaven are part of the New Jerusalem. The crystal sea is a holding place and also a doorway into the throne room in the heavenly temple. Once the new earth is created, there is no longer a need for either a place for souls or a doorway, because there will be no more death and God will dwell with men, there will be no more temple (in heaven). |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 5, 2017 21:27:07 GMT -6
Believers aren't judged at the GWTJ; we are judged at the Bema Seat: bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christThe problem is that Christ is supposed to return with "10000s of His saints" in Rev 19; how can that happen if we are in the lobby waiting for the GWTJ in Rev 20? Remember that we reign with Him in the Millennium according to Rev. 20:4-6. It doesn't fit with Scripture. Remember, "absent in the body, present with the Lord"; I think that heaven is in eternity, without time. Scientifically, time only exists within the material universe, and began at the Big Bang/creation, which is consistent with Genesis 1:1 ("in the beginning...."). Meaning that when we die, we exit material time and go to eternity; thus no matter when someone dies in history, they arrive at the same "moment" in Heaven - and we are there now. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 5, 2017 22:42:12 GMT -6
socalexile, I believe that rt is saying that only the Millennial saints (IE, those mortals who trust Christ for salvation and die during the Millennial Kingdom) will be kept in the glassy sea until the GWTJ. The church saints' souls will be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection (and glorified, too). Hope that helps you understand the position being presented here.
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Post by socalexile on Aug 5, 2017 23:15:11 GMT -6
socalexile, I believe that rt is saying that only the Millennial saints (IE, those mortals who trust Christ for salvation and die during the Millennial Kingdom) will be kept in the glassy sea until the GWTJ. The church saints' souls will be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection (and glorified, too). Hope that helps you understand the position being presented here. I was responding to the OP. Still, that's reading into the text based on one description. If there is scriptural evidence of this, someone please post it; because as far as I read, those who die during the MK are treated as any other Christian. We don't know if they return or they stay in Heaven until the Re-creation. If we want to speculate, I think it's more likely that MK believers will be resurrected immediately, since Christ will be on earth to do (or enable) it. What we know of the MK: www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/summary-of-the-millennial-kingdom.html |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 5, 2017 23:20:00 GMT -6
rt's position (I believe) is that today's dead church-age saints are currently in the crystal sea awaiting the upcoming resurrection. They can talk to God from there but are not immediately in His full presence (if I understand her position correctly). At the soon-upcoming resurrection, these souls will be reunited with their bodies. Then the process starts all over again for the next wave of saints that die (from the Tribulation period, which will (I think) have their own resurrection at the end of the Trib period). Then after that, the process starts yet again for the mortals who die during the Millennial Kingdom.
I find the idea plausible, but am not committed to it, as I think there are other possibilities.
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Post by socalexile on Aug 6, 2017 0:35:45 GMT -6
rt's position (I believe) is that today's dead church-age saints are currently in the crystal sea awaiting the upcoming resurrection. They can talk to God from there but are not immediately in His full presence (if I understand her position correctly). At the soon-upcoming resurrection, these souls will be reunited with their bodies. Then the process starts all over again for the next wave of saints that die (from the Tribulation period, which will (I think) have their own resurrection at the end of the Trib period). Then after that, the process starts yet again for the mortals who die during the Millennial Kingdom. I find the idea plausible, but am not committed to it, as I think there are other possibilities. There needs to be scriptural support for that. You are switching between the MK saints and the current saints? Also, you're arguing rt's view when I was addressing the original post (OP). |
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Post by whatif on Aug 6, 2017 1:36:23 GMT -6
I know that there are many who feel the Great White Throne Judgment is only going to involve those who are not going to be allowed into the new heavens and new earth, but I am not so certain of that. Scripture indicates there will be many, many people born during the Millennial Kingdom, and those who do come to love the Lord during that time will not have gone through the Bema Judgment. And though lifespans will be greatly increased during the Millennial Reign--restored, apparently, to pre-flood lengths--there will still be death during that time, even for those who do love the Lord (aside from the transformed, resurrected saints who are reigning with Jesus, of course). That indicates to me that it is very likely that the Great White Throne Judgment will involve not only the wicked who will be sent to eternal punishment, but also the followers of Jesus who will be given eternal life and be ushered into the new world. That also indicates to me a great possibility that followers of Jesus who die during the Millennial Reign will be kept in heaven, perhaps under that Crystal Sea, until their own transformations during the final judgment time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2017 6:17:18 GMT -6
At times like this, it may be more edifying to the body of Christ to take two steps backwards and take a look again. The point may being made by God, is that there is a plan and everything has its place and steps and program and proper dealing. He is trying to show that there's nothing that has not been attended to properly. We just need to choose Christ, and choose him TODAY, while today maybe found.
Some scriptures are best left to not figure out but to look at their intent of showing God's omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience . My husband and I were reading Joshua yesterday and it spoke of a curse upon whoever rebuilt Jericho. In the Bible there is only one line listing the name of the person who rebuilt Jericho and the loss of his children. Not one other word is spoken of them by name or anything else other than in that sentence. So what was the point? The point was what he says, he means. Sometimes The Scriptures are like that. You but see that he's maybe making a different point than you were seeing. The Crystal Sea may be just one of those things that tells us there's going to be a place for everybody to be handled in some way.
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