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Post by Gary on Nov 30, 2016 11:51:13 GMT -6
If you haven't yet, please check out my article in defense of Conditionalism. It lays out each of the three views of hell, problems with each, and why I believe Conditionalism is the correct biblical understanding.  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 9, 2017 22:14:55 GMT -6
Amazing, Gary, I had never had it laid all out there like that before. I had heard of the concept in a nutshell, but never presented with all the verses like that. Thank you for explaining it so concisely.
Since this is new to me, I am not ready to say I sign on to it just yet, but I must say, if it is true, it does ease some of the major raw chafing questions that arise about God and His ways.
So a couple of clarifying questions:
1. Do you think that different sinners receive a different amount of final punishment, based on the degree or extent of their sins-- someone like Hitler having far more punishment than some young kid who has not had as much opportunity to sin, for instance?
2. I'm clarifying that you do believe the final punishment to be a very real and terrifying experience, very painful and something still very greatly to be avoided?
3. Perhaps the greatest terror a soul will know as they face this doom will be the fact-- they will never regain consciousness again-- ever-- anywhere? An existential cessation-- something that goes against our ingrained instinct for survival and overcoming? The outer darkness being the ultimate separation and the last thoughts they think being-- NO I DON'T WANT TO END?
4. Or here's another possibility-- what if being cast out into outer darkness-- instead of annihilation of the soul, is a complete disembodiment of the soul (after fiery punishment) to where the consciousness still exists but is unable to sense anything-- (see, hear, feel, etc.-- Uttermost darkness and an eternity to ponder in complete and total isolation? That would be horrible too. Separation from God seems to be the ultimate punishment. . ..
5. Hell is a holding cell, basically, for those awaiting judgement? This is what I already understand from Scripture-- Hell, or Hades, is the jail, the Lake Of Fire is the prison. Or in this case, the death penalty. If what you say about Conditionalism is true, this makes the Hell vs. LOF distinction more important. From the Luke passage it seems that those in Hell are already in torment. I used to figure-- what's the big deal about the difference between Hell and the LOF, if they're already in torment once they get to Hell? Why are they punished before the judgement day? That's still a distinction to search out, but I would like to hear your thoughts on that-- the important distinctions between Hell and LOF punishment-- why punishment occurs in both, not one or the other, why punishment before judgement, etc. One note is that Ezekiel's description(s) of Hell do not seem to match Luke's, as the dead king of Tyre, the Phillistines, Egyptians, and others are described as going down into Hell and finding with chagrin that they are really all equal there-- no nobility, no national pride in Hell, just everyone there, the circumcised and the uncircumcised, the great and the poor, etc. but no mention of physical torment. Kind of strange.
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Post by Gary on Mar 10, 2017 21:34:16 GMT -6
Amazing, Gary, I had never had it laid all out there like that before. I had heard of the concept in a nutshell, but never presented with all the verses like that. Thank you for explaining it so concisely. Since this is new to me, I am not ready to say I sign on to it just yet, but I must say, if it is true, it does ease some of the major raw chafing questions that arise about God and His ways. So a couple of clarifying questions: 1. Do you think that different sinners receive a different amount of final punishment, based on the degree or extent of their sins-- someone like Hitler having far more punishment than some young kid who has not had as much opportunity to sin, for instance? 2. I'm clarifying that you do believe the final punishment to be a very real and terrifying experience, very painful and something still very greatly to be avoided? 3. Perhaps the greatest terror a soul will know as they face this doom will be the fact-- they will never regain consciousness again-- ever-- anywhere? An existential cessation-- something that goes against our ingrained instinct for survival and overcoming? The outer darkness being the ultimate separation and the last thoughts they think being-- NO I DON'T WANT TO END? 4. Or here's another possibility-- what if being cast out into outer darkness-- instead of annihilation of the soul, is a complete disembodiment of the soul (after fiery punishment) to where the consciousness still exists but is unable to sense anything-- (see, hear, feel, etc.-- Uttermost darkness and an eternity to ponder in complete and total isolation? That would be horrible too. Separation from God seems to be the ultimate punishment. . .. 5. Hell is a holding cell, basically, for those awaiting judgement? This is what I already understand from Scripture-- Hell, or Hades, is the jail, the Lake Of Fire is the prison. Or in this case, the death penalty. If what you say about Conditionalism is true, this makes the Hell vs. LOF distinction more important. From the Luke passage it seems that those in Hell are already in torment. I used to figure-- what's the big deal about the difference between Hell and the LOF, if they're already in torment once they get to Hell? Why are they punished before the judgement day? That's still a distinction to search out, but I would like to hear your thoughts on that-- the important distinctions between Hell and LOF punishment-- why punishment occurs in both, not one or the other, why punishment before judgement, etc. One note is that Ezekiel's description(s) of Hell do not seem to match Luke's, as the dead king of Tyre, the Phillistines, Egyptians, and others are described as going down into Hell and finding with chagrin that they are really all equal there-- no nobility, no national pride in Hell, just everyone there, the circumcised and the uncircumcised, the great and the poor, etc. but no mention of physical torment. Kind of strange. Hey Jim! Thanks for the questions. To be clear on this, I am open to ECT (eternal conscious torment), persuaded by conditionalism, and I utterly reject UR (universal reconciliation). To your questions: 1. Yes, that's exactly what I believe the Scriptures teach (for example: Matt. 10:15, Matt. 11:23-24, Luke 12:45-48). To me it is also consistent with the principles laid out in the Torah of the punishment fitting the crime and an "eye for an eye". God's justice is perfect. Some medieval theologians attempted to wiggle around this by suggesting that a sin against an infinite God deserves an infinite punishment, but I can't find any Scriptural basis for that. To the contrary, the Scriptures seem to teach punishment fitting the crime, not the worth of the victim. My view is basically that of the pre-trib teacher Dr. David Reagan. 2. Yes. There are a few conditionalists that seem to teach "soul sleep" based on some Old Testament passages in Ecclesiastes, I believe, but I don't buy that theory. The body "sleeps", but the soul goes straight to Christ in Heaven (believers), or to Hades (unbelievers). I think that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was more than just a symbol. The rich man descended into agony. 3. Exactly - a truly eternal punishment. In fact I think Ecclesiastes 3:11 hints at the universal desire for eternity in the hearts of all men. We were made in God's image - made for eternity. 4. That's an interesting thought, and I'm definitely open to the traditional Catholic/mainline Protestant view, but this is the area that really sealed the deal for me. The Bible presents three conditions of the fate of the wicked: 1. fiery torment, 2. separation from God / outer darkness, 3. and ceasing to be / being utterly destroyed. I think this goes to the heart of one of the main theological problems with ECT: it can't seem to reconcile all those clear Scriptural descriptions. The Bible doesn't describe these different descriptions as mere symbols, not to be taken literally. I think the Bible is being very literal, which is actually kind of intriguing to me, because ECT proponents tend to be of the type that want to take the Bible extremely literally, and they fear that any non-ECT view is heresy, yet their ECT view is not literal. For example, all fires give off heat and light, which contradicts utter darkness. Virtually all Christian theologians agree that God is omnipresent based on numerous Scriptures (He is even present in Hades per Psalm 139), yet the Bible says men will be forever separated from God - both things can't be literally true if the ECT view is true. As I've studied more and more on this subject it seems pretty clear: a terrible future judgment is coming (Gehenna / Lake of Fire), which the wicked will be physically resurrected to face. This judgment will be perfectly proportional and just. After said punishment, the wicked will be destroyed both body and soul (Matt. 10:28). Conditionalism reconciles: - The omnipresence of God / eternal separation from God
- The justice of God
- The theme throughout Scripture of conditional immortality (i.e. the Bible bookends with the Tree of Life in Genesis and the end of Revelation)
- The mercy of God
- Sin = death (not ECT)
- A future fiery judgment
- The destruction of Hades in the Lake of Fire (this always stuck out to me as a pretty big ECT contradiction - "hell" getting thrown into "hell", even though in the Greek they are not both "hell")
- Different levels of punishment mentioned throughout Scripture
- Numerous Scriptures describing the fate of the wicked as death, ceasing to be, being "burned up", destruction, etc (in fact the great majority of Scriptures about the fate of the wicked)
- The love of God as being His primary attribute (1 John 4) and the motive for all that He does
- Human free will (there are major logical and moral dilemmas with both ECT and UR when it comes to the concept of free will)
5. This is another interesting point, too. The Bible seems to indicate immediate post-death consequences for the wicked and these torments seem to be ongoing. Yet in the ECT view, the final judgment of God just transfers the wicked from one fire to another. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. We know the Bible teaches that unbelievers are judged already and the wrath of God is already on them (John 3:18, 3:36). So there is the immediate judgment of belief/unbelief that determines salvation. If someone dies in unbelief it makes sense that immediate consequences would be fair, because they are already judged per God's Word. The Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20, however, seems to be a judgment of works. I think this is where God actually takes the time, as in a court of law, to bring charges against every unbeliever in a clear, unambiguous, and fair way. Then a final, eternal punishment is enacted that ultimately leads to the complete destruction of body and soul (Matt. 10:28, Malachi 4:1, Matthew 3:12, Obadiah 1:16). Thanks for the questions! |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 10, 2017 22:09:15 GMT -6
Also why in the decription of the New Heaven and New Earth, does it say that without the city are the dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc. (Rev. 22:15) ? This looks like an ongoing situation, that these ones are not allowed in the city, but are always outside it. What would this mean?
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 10, 2017 22:12:58 GMT -6
Another thought-- maybe the torment people endure in Hell (the holding jail) is actually more the punishment for rejecting Christ's salvation, whereas at the GWTJ Christ will judge them for their evil deeds (breaking the laws of God other than, or in addition to, rejection of "So great a salvation." Then when they are judged out of the things written in the books, their variated sins will be punished at the LOF. The torment of Hell is then, if my hunch is right, the torment of rejection of Yeshua (salvation). Just a thought, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 19:33:59 GMT -6
This is a really interesting topic and I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Gary, makes a lot of sense. I need to research this more myself to see what I think about it, but I definitely agree that sin = death seems to be a big consistent theme throughout the whole Bible.
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Post by Gary on Mar 13, 2017 9:37:01 GMT -6
I think you're right Jim - that makes a lot of sense to me (your last post). I definitely think there are essentially two judgments: one for salvation (belief vs unbelief; the Book of Life), and one for works (GWTJ).
About those outside the city in Revelation 22 - I think it is a bit ambiguous. One thing though, is that it doesn't tell us the state or length of their suffering. It could certainly be referring to their ongoing, yet temporal punishment being fairly metered out. I'd have to dig into the Greek to get a sense of the verbs in use there, but it could also simply be a statement that the wicked can't come into the city, rather than a statement about their ongoing suffering.
Just a thought (:
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 13, 2017 16:12:26 GMT -6
Well that would be a loose end to tie up with your system, Gary.  Not saying it proves it false, but just that it is one thing that needs clarification. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 13, 2017 16:18:42 GMT -6
This week I am dealing with my sister who is here from out of state. She is in a very pitiable state-- essentially an apostate who refuses to listen to talk about God. She made multiple "confessions of faith" earlier in life until she just "gave up trying to be a Christian or believe in God." She is very fearful and emotionally unstable. Please pray for me as I interact with her. If I fully believed in Conditionalism it would help my perspective with her. If I believed it and were able to explain it to her, it might help her perspective, as she holds this against the idea of a loving God.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 10:26:38 GMT -6
Watchmanjim... so sorry about your sister. We all seem to have family like that. I will pray for her.
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Post by Gary on Mar 14, 2017 11:57:43 GMT -6
This week I am dealing with my sister who is here from out of state. She is in a very pitiable state-- essentially an apostate who refuses to listen to talk about God. She made multiple "confessions of faith" earlier in life until she just "gave up trying to be a Christian or believe in God." She is very fearful and emotionally unstable. Please pray for me as I interact with her. If I fully believed in Conditionalism it would help my perspective with her. If I believed it and were able to explain it to her, it might help her perspective, as she holds this against the idea of a loving God. Hey Jim, I'm sorry to hear about your situation with your sister. I will pray for God to be working in her heart to bring her around. The Gospel should be really good news to anyone who hears it, but unfortunately I think the traditions of man have turned the good news into terrifying news and make God out to be a tyrant. My view and understanding of Scripture could be wrong, but I'm more and more persuaded that the Gospel is a message of the free gift of eternal life and reconciliation with God - in other words, salvation from total death (Which is an eternal punishment). I actually know people who want to become Christians themselves, but because of the medieval ECT view they can't seem to handle the possibility that their unsaved family members will be tortured for eternity. I wonder if your sister might be enlightened by this video: |
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Not saying it proves it false, but just that it is one thing that needs clarification.