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Post by rt on Jul 31, 2017 15:25:31 GMT -6
Hi RT here, for those who don't know I posted a thread in the rapture forum about a revised pretrib rapture view. I talk in depth about the seals and the horses and riders there.
As far as the seals go I do believe that there is definitely a correlation between the colored seal horses of Revelation and the colored horses of Zechariah. I think they perform similar functions; appeasing God's wrath, or in other words, they keep God from executing His wrath upon the people of earth.
I believe that the riders and horses are spiritual entities of some kind, that have influence over geopolitics on earth. So at any given time they have influence over certain world forces, whether they be political, economic, social or physical. So at some point they will influence events to bring about the fulfillment of prophecy through specific individuals, ei.. the Antichrist, the false prophet, Gog, Magog, armageddon, etc...Until it is time for God to execute His wrath in Judgement.
It's also interesting that each horse and rider is associated with one of the four living creatures. These living creatures may be associated with the four cardinal directions, north, south, east and west. John puts them in an order in Rev 4
So the first rider who is a conqueror is associated with the first creature who has a face like a lion, the second horse rider of war associated with the second creature who has a face like a calf, the third horse rider of famine/economic hardship is associated with the creature who has a face like a man, and the fourth rider death and hades is associated with the creature that has a face like an eagle. Whatever the significance may be I have not really explored it.
One other thing I heard recently, can't recall where, concerning the last horse and riders, which I found interesting is that death rides with Hades. Hades being the place where the souls of the wicked are sent. So this death is brought specifically upon the wicked. At least that is what the author of this idea claimed. I always thought it peculiar that the last horse rider of death is accompanied by Hades and never really put a lot of thought into why that might be. What do you all think?
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Post by yardstick on Jul 31, 2017 18:25:28 GMT -6
All of them. Although I am most dubious about the red horse explanation, they are well communicated, thought out, and supported with evidence and logic. Remember what Francis of Assisi said: In essentials, unity; in non-essentials liberty; and in all things charity. Interpretation of Prophecy is a non-essential, limited by the level of knowledge and spiritual discernment we have at the time we speculate/hypothesize. We usually do not know for sure until prophecy has become history. I'm sorry! I misread/misunderstood what you were asking: you were asking which explanation of the four horses was the one I was referring to. That would be that the Horsemen are not people, they are time frames, or geopolitical events with no one individual necessarily causing them (i.e. the white horseman is the AC) |
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Post by whatif on Jul 31, 2017 18:35:54 GMT -6
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 20:28:41 GMT -6
I always thought it peculiar that the last horse rider of death is accompanied by Hades and never really put a lot of thought into why that might be. What do you all think? One of possibility off the top of my head: -that those killed are unsaved, meaning that for them, death is followed by condemnation. I'll have to study it a bit more. As for the creatures and the horses, remember that in Ezekiel there are four creatures each having the four faces, where in Revelation there are four creatures, each with a single different face. Not sure if that correlates with the chariots (one rider with 2-4 horses of the same color) and the horsemen (1 rider 1 horse). The creatures of Revelation are likely representative of the Gospels. One guy you may want to check out, though he's obscure, is Walter Bramson. He has some interesting insights. He's fuzzy on the details but I think he gets the main point most of the time. Here's one of his teachings that I think is spot-on on regards to the scroll of Revelation 5: |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 9, 2017 1:00:47 GMT -6
One other thing I heard recently, can't recall where, concerning the last horse and riders, which I found interesting is that death rides with Hades. Hades being the place where the souls of the wicked are sent. So this death is brought specifically upon the wicked. At least that is what the author of this idea claimed. I always thought it peculiar that the last horse rider of death is accompanied by Hades and never really put a lot of thought into why that might be. What do you all think? Hi RT, I have recently listened to some presentations given by Bill Salus who has a theory on the pale ("chloro") horse being ridden by Death with Hades following after. I've been chewing on it for a while. He connects Isaiah 28:15-18, where Israel makes a "covenant with death... and [an] agreement with Sheol" in order to save themselves from a "passing scourge" that will backfire, bringing them to ruin and judgment. Within the passage God warns them not to act hastily and is possibly criticizing their using a measuring line and plummet for building something (the temple?). So in other words, the chloro horse is something killing people and claiming people for hell (Hades/Sheol) that Israel makes a deal with in order to save themselves physically and build their temple. My thought along these lines is that it could be the harlot religion slaughtering anyone who refuses to convert. And in that line, it could be ISIS type Islam or a hybrid of that. |
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Post by rt on Aug 9, 2017 6:52:20 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts MissusMack08, and welcome to the board!
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Post by whatif on Aug 9, 2017 7:13:58 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum, MissusMack08! It's a pleasure to meet you!
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 9, 2017 8:15:39 GMT -6
Welcome, MissusMack08! Interesting thoughts. I'm going to have to go back and read Isaiah 28 again.
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Post by rt on Aug 9, 2017 14:19:02 GMT -6
Hi whatif, I finally got around to listening to the linked video, I think Mr. Bramson makes many assumptions about the scroll, some may have merit others maybe not. One assumption I take issue with is that he says the reason no one other than the Lamb can look inside is because it is sealed with 7 seals. But the passage clearly tells us why only the Lamb can look inside:
The reason given in the passage is pretty obvious, and it has nothing to do with the fact that there are 7 seals deterring anyone else from seeing inside the scroll. It is rather silly to apply Roman law and historical accounts to a scroll that is in heaven. Who else would be trying to look at it? It is being held by God who hands it to Christ. The reason no one else could look into it is because no one else but the Lamb was worthy, and the event that made Him worthy was that He overcame, He was resurrected from the dead.
He also assumes that the scroll is a last will and testament, a title deed to the world and/or a redemption certificate. While historically it is true that there were scrolls of those types that had writing on both sides and were sealed with multiple seals. It is also true that opisthographs (two sided scrolls) of other types existed, albeit they are rare. We do not have to guess what the contents of the scroll say, the scroll is opened and John witnesses the effects it has on earth, namely the trumpets and bowls and the resulting return of Christ to earth. Yes the results of the opened scroll result in the redemption of the nation of Israel, and they do receive their land back, and there is an inheritance given. So in that sense the author is correct about what the contents of the scroll result in.
Just my thoughts
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Post by socalexile on Aug 9, 2017 20:26:44 GMT -6
Hi whatif, I finally got around to listening to the linked video, I think Mr. Bramson makes many assumptions about the scroll, some may have merit others maybe not. One assumption I take issue with is that he says the reason no one other than the Lamb can look inside is because it is sealed with 7 seals. But the passage clearly tells us why only the Lamb can look inside: The reason given in the passage is pretty obvious, and it has nothing to do with the fact that there are 7 seals deterring anyone else from seeing inside the scroll. It is rather silly to apply Roman law and historical accounts to a scroll that is in heaven. Who else would be trying to look at it? It is being held by God who hands it to Christ. The reason no one else could look into it is because no one else but the Lamb was worthy, and the event that made Him worthy was that He overcame, He was resurrected from the dead. He also assumes that the scroll is a last will and testament, a title deed to the world and/or a redemption certificate. While historically it is true that there were scrolls of those types that had writing on both sides and were sealed with multiple seals. It is also true that opisthographs (two sided scrolls) of other types existed, albeit they are rare. We do not have to guess what the contents of the scroll say, the scroll is opened and John witnesses the effects it has on earth, namely the trumpets and bowls and the resulting return of Christ to earth. Yes the results of the opened scroll result in the redemption of the nation of Israel, and they do receive their land back, and there is an inheritance given. So in that sense the author is correct about what the contents of the scroll result in. Just my thoughts Bramson explained why the Lamb was worthy, He was the only kinsman that could redeem man from sin; because the kinsman needed to be sinless, i.e., not a slave himself. He uses the Bible's own logic, in the laws for a slave, to explain how man has been purchased from slavery, and it's probably the best explanation for what is going on here that I have heard yet. Nonetheless, the point was that the four creatures represent the Gospels. Why does their description change in the NT as opposed to the OT? It could be because what the Gospels tell us about Jesus is already in the OT as a unified whole, which the Gospels then further break down into four sections reflecting four aspects of Christ's nature and role: King, Servant, Man and God. Christ is throughout the OT. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 10, 2017 7:58:12 GMT -6
Welcome, MissusMack08! Interesting thoughts. I'm going to have to go back and read Isaiah 28 again. Thank you! I'm so glad I found this forum, as it's chock full of information and ideas and fortunately, lacking in verbal vitriol like so many other sites. A testament to the power of the Holy Spirit! I've had several questions come up in my search to understand bible prophecy and the time we live in, so I'm looking forward to finally get to discuss them. Isaiah 28 is a doozy of a chapter. There is so much in it, but it seems to definitely be about the judgment on Israel during the 70th week. Another verse within it sticks out to me as pertaining to the AoD at the halfway point or at least when Israel flees into the mountains: Isaiah 28:17b The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. Rev 12:13-16. Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. So the flood could actually be water rather than an army like what I had always been taught. |
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