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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 29, 2017 12:18:40 GMT -6
Even if rt's timeline is correct, well, with just a little bit of modification, it could still work with yours--just that the first four seals need to happen in the next 8 weeks, rather than having been happening for the past 1900 years.  Regardless, I'm pretty sure the Lord's rapture is at the 6th seal--something my strain of Baptists never could get our heads until a few of us recently have been open to it. Who is rt again? Sorry I'm being dense. rt is one of our members on here. She began the thread called "A revised view of the pretribulation rapture." I recommend reading the thread for anyone who has not read it. unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 12:23:27 GMT -6
Whatever event the horses bring, they are judgments from the Lord.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 30, 2017 2:26:40 GMT -6
On another, rather disconcerting note, it's interesting that the rider of the White Horse has a stephanos, a crown of laurels given to a victor, which is the same type of crown given to the church in these passages: -Jesus’ crown of thorns (Mat. 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:2, 5). -Man crowned with glory and honor (Heb. 2:7). -Jesus crowned with glory and honor (Heb. 2:9). -Paul’s Philippian believers (Php. 4:1). -Paul’s Thessalonian believers (1Th. 2:19). -The Twenty-Four Elders (Rev. 4:4+, 10+). -The rider on the white horse (Rev. 6:2+). -Locusts from the abyss (Rev. 9:7+). -Woman with twelve stars (Rev. 12:1+). -One like the Son of Man (Rev. 14:14+). -Believer’s Crowns: -1Cor. 9:25 (Incorruptible Crown) -2Ti. 4:8 (Crown of Righteousness) -Jas. 1:12; Rev. 2:10+ (Crown of Life) -1Pe. 5:4 (Crown of Glory)  Is the crown a believer's crown? Is the White Horse the church that has accepted a leftist Gay Rights Agenda? It is happening in mainstream denominations; have these churches simply morphed into something imitating the real thing? Most reject 'salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone' in some form or another. Even the Roman (Catholic) Church has drifted far away from the Biblical Gospel over the centuries - that's evident with a little understanding of one of their favorite icons: La Pieta, which is not currently displayed the way it was meant to. Is the reason the 'banner' of the Gospel and redemption is given back to the Jews is because the Gentile church going the way that the Jews did prior to the 1st Coming, where they followed their traditions, self-righteousness, and opinions rather than the Living God? I'm not sure if this is "newspaper exegesis" or not (interpreting the Bible with a newspaper), throwing it out there for discussion. |
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 30, 2017 10:05:50 GMT -6
Whatever event the horses bring, they are judgments from the Lord. "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge..." (Rev 6:9-10) According to the words of the slain saints the first 4 seals has nothing to do with the judgments from the Lord for His judgement hasn't started yet. I believe that the resurrection/rapture happens at the 5th seal. In Rev 6:11 it says that "a white robe was given to each of them". The apostle Paul said: "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven..." (2 Cor 5:2) So a white robe given to the saints must be a new heavenly body. |
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Post by socalexile on Jul 30, 2017 10:11:05 GMT -6
Whatever event the horses bring, they are judgments from the Lord. "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge..." (Rev 6:9-10) According to the words of the slain saints the first 4 seals has nothing to do with the judgments from the Lord for His judgement hasn't started yet. I believe that the resurrection/rapture happens at the 5th seal. In Rev 6:11 it says that "a white robe was given to each of them". The apostle Paul said: "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven..." (2 Cor 5:2) So a white robe given to the saints must be a new heavenly body. Good point Paul on "judge". |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 30, 2017 11:05:57 GMT -6
Just a thought. The stephanos crown is the same thing that is given to an athletic champion. Perhaps this man is an athletic champion--somebody you'd see on a Wheaties box.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 11:08:31 GMT -6
Good but if you look for instance in the King James and do a search on the words famine, sword, pestilence...you will see that in the Old Testament they were used by God as discipline and judgment. I believe that the Saints underneath the altar, are Saints that have died during the tribulation( inside a new dispensation unlike the pre-trib saint ). I could be wrong but that's currently what I believe.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 30, 2017 11:49:00 GMT -6
I believe that the Saints underneath the altar, are Saints that have died during the tribulation( inside a new dispensation unlike the pre-trib saint ). I could be wrong but that's currently what I believe. That is certainly what I believed until recently. I could still make a case for it. That would fit with the white horse and rider kicking off the beginning of the 70th week, possibly as the covenant is made with many. (CWM). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 12:16:34 GMT -6
I can also see The Saints under the altar could be the remnant of Jacob, otherwise known as unbelieving/blinded Jews dead from the OT through the tribulation.
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Post by yardstick on Jul 30, 2017 12:23:31 GMT -6
Just a thought. The stephanos crown is the same thing that is given to an athletic champion. Perhaps this man is an athletic champion--somebody you'd see on a Wheaties box. athletic champion... one who competes? |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 30, 2017 12:25:13 GMT -6
Good but if you look for instance in the King James and do a search on the words famine, sword, pestilence...you will see that in the Old Testament they were used by God as discipline and judgment. I believe that the Saints underneath the altar, are Saints that have died during the tribulation( inside a new dispensation unlike the pre-trib saint ). I could be wrong but that's currently what I believe. That would suggest that all of the Trib saints have been killed by the time the 5th seal is opened? |
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Post by sawdy on Jul 30, 2017 15:54:20 GMT -6
On another, rather disconcerting note, it's interesting that the rider of the White Horse has a stephanos, a crown of laurels given to a victor, which is the same type of crown given to the church in these passages: -Jesus’ crown of thorns (Mat. 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:2, 5). -Man crowned with glory and honor (Heb. 2:7). -Jesus crowned with glory and honor (Heb. 2:9). -Paul’s Philippian believers (Php. 4:1). -Paul’s Thessalonian believers (1Th. 2:19). -The Twenty-Four Elders (Rev. 4:4+, 10+). -The rider on the white horse (Rev. 6:2+). -Locusts from the abyss (Rev. 9:7+). -Woman with twelve stars (Rev. 12:1+). -One like the Son of Man (Rev. 14:14+). -Believer’s Crowns: -1Cor. 9:25 (Incorruptible Crown) -2Ti. 4:8 (Crown of Righteousness) -Jas. 1:12; Rev. 2:10+ (Crown of Life) -1Pe. 5:4 (Crown of Glory) Is the crown a believer's crown? Is the White Horse the church that has accepted a leftist Gay Rights Agenda? It is happening in mainstream denominations; have these churches simply morphed into something imitating the real thing? Most reject 'salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone' in some form or another. Even the Roman (Catholic) Church has drifted far away from the Biblical Gospel over the centuries - that's evident with a little understanding of one of their favorite icons: La Pieta, which is not currently displayed the way it was meant to. Is the reason the 'banner' of the Gospel and redemption is given back to the Jews is because the Gentile church going the way that the Jews did prior to the 1st Coming, where they followed their traditions, self-righteousness, and opinions rather than the Living God? I'm not sure if this is "newspaper exegesis" or not (interpreting the Bible with a newspaper), throwing it out there for discussion. When you posted the image of the Stephanos, the image that it brought to mind for me is the United Nations flag. There is a Stephanos looking leaves embracing the flattened globe on their flag. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 16:30:25 GMT -6
Good but if you look for instance in the King James and do a search on the words famine, sword, pestilence...you will see that in the Old Testament they were used by God as discipline and judgment. I believe that the Saints underneath the altar, are Saints that have died during the tribulation( inside a new dispensation unlike the pre-trib saint ). I could be wrong but that's currently what I believe. That would suggest that all of the Trib saints have been killed by the time the 5th seal is opened? No, because they are told to wait until the rest of them are killed as they were. |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 31, 2017 8:27:47 GMT -6
That would suggest that all of the Trib saints have been killed by the time the 5th seal is opened? No, because they are told to wait until the rest of them are killed as they were. So, its more of some of the Trib Saints have died, and are waiting for the rest of them... This is the impression I have had, until reading rt's exegesis on Revelation, where she points out that the Saints under the alter are the ones that have died prior to the Trib starting? Now I am having to rethink my position, because it appears there is a mutually exclusive choice here. Either: 1. the 5th seal refers to all of the saints that have died prior to the Trib. Which confirms the 'sleep' references in scripture, but begs some questions about the "absent from the body, present with the Lord" notion; or 2. the Saints referred to by the 5th seal are those that have died so far during the Trib, but there are more to follow. Which begs the question of the "how long til you judge them" clause - indicating judgement has not yet occurred... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 8:46:32 GMT -6
I am so sorry, for I seem to be spot informing...
From the beginning of the Mosaic covenant there have been people with heart and no heart (of the PHYSICAL Israelites). When Jesus went into the earth before his resurrection, most believe that he went to preach and give all The opportunity to except the Gospel. At that point he took believers with him and the unbelievers wait judgment. From that time forward, again, there have been believers and nonbelievers in the Gospel. Believers' souls go to heaven and the nonbelieving wait for judgment. All believers' ( martyred or not) go to heaven for that is the reward, correct? So when the church age is over, the time of grace being upon the whole world for 2000 years under that program is over. So there will be a group that is waiting for judgment and some of those were Jewish people who were unbelievers. And many of them were beheaded , Which I find that the enemy party was influenced by Satan to remove the head from the body whether they understood what they were doing or not... there seemed to be some evil desire to separate the Head from the body. I believe Satan will continue this evil practice once the tribulation begins and the mosaic program picks up and finishes the last seven years that God has promised we're to come. The Bible is big about calling Christ as the head and the church the body....so there may be something very spiritual to that group who are under the altar for having died that way. And they are accumulated until the last one that is destined to die that way is killed. We see there is a special vengeance that they cry out for .....that the enemies who killed them this way will receive.
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