paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2017 4:59:32 GMT -6
I was reading Genesis 49:8-10 where Jacob prophesied that kings will come from the tribe of Judah and then interesting parallel came into my mind. We know that before David started to rule as a king Saul was a ruler of Israel. Saul was from the tribe of Benjamin and not from Judah. He was a ruler of people's choice and not God's. If we draw the parallel with our time then before the Son of David our Lord Jesus begin to rule there is going to be the ruler chosen by people like Saul. The name of the current Premier Minister of Israel points to the Saul who was from the tribe of Benjamin.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 23, 2017 5:23:29 GMT -6
What tribe is he from though? The problem with this, while it could be symbolic, is that the Jews are no longer divided according to tribe - except the Kohanim ("Priests" in Hebrew, aka Levite descendants of Aaron). Read Ezekiel 37 that speaks on God removing the tribes and making them one people. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+37&version=NKJV
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2017 7:02:35 GMT -6
Personally Ezekiel 37 speaks about the resurrection of the dead. Paul connects the resurrection of the dead with the Jewish acceptance of Jesus (Rom 11:15). "One people" means God makes Jews (tribe of Judah) and Gentiles (tribe of Ephraim) new creation in Christ. Apostle Paul wrote of this: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The key verse to it is Ezekiel 37:23 where the Lord says: "Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God." Compare it to 2 Corinthians 6:16.
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Post by socalexile on Jul 23, 2017 7:29:03 GMT -6
Personally Ezekiel 37 speaks about the resurrection of the dead. Paul connects the resurrection of the dead with the Jewish acceptance of Jesus (Rom 11:15). "One people" means God makes Jews (tribe of Judah) and Gentiles (tribe of Ephraim) new creation in Christ. Apostle Paul wrote of this: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The key verse to it is Ezekiel 37:23 where the Lord says: "Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God." Compare it to 2 Corinthians 6:16. 15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand. 18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. Ephraim is a tribe if Israel. Edom is what you are thinking of.
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Post by Gary on Jul 23, 2017 7:30:27 GMT -6
The Saul/Tribe of Benjamin parallel is still pretty interesting to me, even if Netanyahu is from the Tribe of Judah since his name is Benjamin. That said, he could very well be from the Tribe of Benjamin, too, given that Benjamin was part of the Southern Kingdom. The Apostle Paul was from the Tribe of Benjamin, btw.
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2017 7:46:13 GMT -6
Ephraim is a tribe if Israel. Edom is what you are thinking of. Ephraim is a tribe of Israel according to the flesh but not according to the spirit. Jacob prophesied about Ephraim that "his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." Robert Young translated it as "seed is the fullness of the nations" (Gen 48:19 YLT). The word "nations" is the Hebrew word goee which is translated as Gentiles. Apostle Paul used the expression "fullness of the Gentiles" and also wrote that "they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel" (Rom 9:6) In Romans 9 he showed the difference between the fleshly and spiritual view of Israel. That's why I believe that Ephraim is absent from 144k. He will be raptured...
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paul
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In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2017 7:59:36 GMT -6
The Saul/Tribe of Benjamin parallel is still pretty interesting to me, even if Netanyahu is from the Tribe of Judah since his name is Benjamin. That said, he could very well be from the Tribe of Benjamin, too, given that Benjamin was part of the Southern Kingdom. The Apostle Paul was from the Tribe of Benjamin, btw. Saul was rejected by the Law but Paul was accepted by Grace. He is the 12th apostle of the Lamb and the Lord's replacement of Judas. Benjamin was also the 12th son of Jacob. As for Netanyahu I expect someone from Jews to be AC. Many look for the Antichrist among Turks, French, Russians or Catholics, but Jesus calls a specific group of people “the synagogue of Satan”. When Apostle John speaks about coming of the Antichrist and many other antichrists he says: “They went out from us, but they were not of us…” (1 John 2:19) Here John clearly points out from whom the Antichrist is coming…
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Post by whatif on Jul 23, 2017 13:40:24 GMT -6
The Saul/Tribe of Benjamin parallel is still pretty interesting to me, even if Netanyahu is from the Tribe of Judah since his name is Benjamin. That said, he could very well be from the Tribe of Benjamin, too, given that Benjamin was part of the Southern Kingdom. The Apostle Paul was from the Tribe of Benjamin, btw. Saul was rejected by the Law but Paul was accepted by Grace. He is the 12th apostle of the Lamb and the Lord's replacement of Judas. Hi, paul! I thought Matthias was the replacement for Judas. The story is in Acts 1:15-26.
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.” (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 23, 2017 21:44:37 GMT -6
Yes, Matthias was the replacement for Judas, however there were several more apostles added, including Luke and Barnabas, and lastly, Paul. So many things have been said in this thread. In my understanding, Ezekiel 37 (the part about the 2 sticks) very clearly speaks primarily about the FUTURE reconciling of the tribe of Judah and its hangers-on (Benjamin, part of Levi, and evidently a few straggly remnants from other tribes, including Asher at the time of Christ), and the tribe of Ephraim (chief among the 10 northern tribes) and all the other northern tribes, which have been lost to history, but are still out there in the world somewhere (quite possibly spread out all over the entire world). This comes in context right after the earlier portion of Ez. 37 where we have the valley of dry bones, which is a multiple fulfillment prophecy primarily showing the return of Israel (all of the 13 tribes) into the land of Israel, followed by their quickening by the Spirit, which will be accomplished during and/or at the end of the Tribulation period. The 2-sticks portion I take to be taking place in the same context as the dry bones, either concurrently, immediately before, or immediately after. Now, just because I believe these to be the primary meanings of these passages, does not necessitate that there are no additional, secondary meanings or applications to the passages, either symbolically, spiritually, etc.-- I am sure there are several additional meanings to deduce from them as well. But Ephraim /= Gentiles. Ephraim = the northern 10 tribes, or simply the 1 tribe of Ephraim itself. Symbolically, it could mean other things, but we need to be careful assigning a symbolic value to it without giving some really good reasons. Your main point about Benjamin Netanyahu is a very good point, and I think you hit on something. I think I, or another member, may have picked up on this already in the earlier thread "Typologoy as prophecy, David and Goliath, I Samuel 17". I believe we tentatively already connected BBN to King Saul symbolically. The tribe of Benjamin is a very special tribe, with a physical/symbolic narrative that weaves its way throughout Scripture in its own special way. Benjamin was the 12 son of Jacob, and as such he occupied the "hot-seat" position of 12th man, which I need to write a thread about. The 12th of any list always has some special characteristics, one being that it is in danger of not being included in the list--if it is an actual man, he is actually in danger of dying, as Benjamin's life was seen to be in jeopardy in Genesis. As a tribe, Benjamin was nearly eradicated in Judges. The 12th man, Judas, was the one who fell and betrayed the Lord, and killed himself. The 12th one is associated with a curse, as the tribe of Benjamin was cursed in Judges. Benjamin was cursed by his mother, Rachel when he was born (she named him Benomi), but Jacob came to his rescue and named him Benjamin instead. The 12th is usually included last of all, as if late, far later than the others-- Benjamin was born much later than his brethren. The 12th is associated with loss, or near loss. Esther is the 12th book of the history books of the OT, and the entire book is about near loss. In fact, there was a fight whether to include Esther in the cannon of the Scripture, and it was nearly not included, nearly discarded. Note that Esther and Mordecai were from the tribe of-------- Benjamin. Malachai was the 12th of the minor prophets, and written much later than the other minors. The last word in Malachai is "curse." Judas, the 12th, was cursed. There's a lot more I could write about this.
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Post by whatif on Jul 24, 2017 0:02:25 GMT -6
Fascinating! Netanyahu has also been mentioned in relation to the book of Esther not too long ago. I remember that when he came to speak to Congress on the day of the Fast of Esther and warned about the nuclear deal Obama was making with Iran, there were many news reports likening the events to the story of Esther. Here's an article about it.
Source: Leo Hohmann, "Bibi Showdown with Iran a 'Replay of Bible Story,'" World Net Daily, 02 March 2015, www.wnd.com/2015/03/showdown-on-iranian-nukes-has-biblical-forerunner/
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 24, 2017 1:07:53 GMT -6
Hi, paul! I thought Matthias was the replacement for Judas. The story is in Acts 1:15-26. Hi whatif! The eleven chose Matthias the old covenant fleshly way by casting lots. The Lord had different plan on the other hand. Yes there are many other apostles but the 12 apostles of the Lamb have a special standing in the city of New Jerusalem. Their names are written on the 12 foundations of the city. Apostle Paul said: "According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation..." Paul (Saul) is from the tribe of Benjamin according to the flesh but he said himself that it doesn't really matter (Phil 3:8). I believe that he represents the tribe of Ephraim in the New Jerusalem. Paul was an apostle to Gentiles and as I mentioned earlier Ephraim is the fullness of Gentiles according to the Jacob's prophecy.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 24, 2017 6:54:09 GMT -6
Well the Hebrew of Genesis 48:19 is as follows:
וימאן אביו ויאמר ידעתי בני ידעתי גם־הוא יהיה־לעם וגם־הוא יגדל ואולם אחיו הקטן יגדל ממנו וזרעו יהיה מלא־הגוים׃
The red part is the last three Hebrew words, which could be translated several different ways.
KJV: shall become a multitude of nations. ESV: shall become a multitude of nations. MKJV: shall become a multitude of nations. YLT: is the fulness of the nations; NASB: shall become a multitude of nations. NIV: will become a group of nations. HCSB: will become a populous nation. NKJV: shall become a multitude of nations. GNV: shall be full of nations. ASV: shall become a multitude of nations. AMP: shall become a multitude of nations. CEV: will become many great nations. Darby: will become the fulness of nations. D-R: shall grow into nations. ERV: will be much larger. GNT: will become great nations. TLB: shall become even greater.
Now of those Bibles, only 2 (Young's Living Translation, and Darby) translate it as "the fulness of nations." I personally do not hold with either of those two Bible translations; I do not find them very trustworthy anyway.
Also, when I plug those exact Hebrew words into the Google Hebrew translator, it quickly pops up: "Will be full of nations."
When this term, "the fulness of nations" is used, it is a very ambiguous phrase, and could be used to mean many different things. This is part of why it is not a good translation. Most of the other translations are far more precise in their meaning. Some of the others I listed are what I call misleading translations, such as TLB: "shall become even greater" is totally not what the text says and is a paraphrase based on what the translators took to be the most important take-away from the verse. But all the ones I put some stock in, the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, HCSB, and Geneva Bible, all consistently refer to Ephraim literally becoming many nations. The Geneva is phrased a little differently: "Shall be full of nations" and it is true this is a little more ambiguous than "shall become a multitude of nations" but to me, it sides with the KJV and the others I mentioned, as becoming full of nations. The rest of the verse backs that up, because the word preceding this word is the Hebrew word for seed, so it would mean that Ephraim's seed shall be full of nations.
So I stand by my understanding here.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 25, 2017 14:50:29 GMT -6
Here from my WordStudy dictionary:
H4390 mālē’: A verb meaning to fill, to be full, to be complete, to fulfill, to finish, to satisfy. This word occurs 251 times in the Old Testament and functions both in a spatial and temporal sense. Spatially, the term pictures the act of making that which was empty of a particular content no longer so. It can also express that state of being in which a certain container is holding to capacity a particular object or objects. God commanded the water creatures to fill the seas (Gen 1:22); and humanity to fill the earth (Gen 1:28). Theologically, the glory of the Lord filled the Temple (1Ki 8:10-11; cf. Isa 6:1); and Jeremiah declared that God fills heaven and earth (Jer 23:24). Temporally, the term refers to the completion of a specified segment of time. According to the Law, a woman who had given birth to a boy could not enter the sanctuary until the thirty-three days of her blood purification were completed (Lev 12:4). The Lord promised to establish King David's kingdom after his days were fulfilled (i.e., he died: 2Sa 7:12; cf. Lam 4:18).
According to this definition Young's translation is the closest to the original.
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Post by delo63 on Jul 25, 2017 14:52:16 GMT -6
Could that 33 days have to do with the time-frame between the eclipse and the sign?
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Post by whatif on Jul 25, 2017 15:27:59 GMT -6
I was wondering the same thing, delo63! We've noted on other threads that it also starts in the 33rd state and ends at the 33rd parallel...
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