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Post by whatif on Jul 31, 2017 14:40:33 GMT -6
A people come, great and strong, (I think most scholars agree that Joel 2 is describing a locus plague, but I am now leaning towards a real army! Real people! )The like of whom has never been; (This linked with Song of Solomon seems to argue against a bunch of bugs... LOL... especially with the love story of the Bride and Groom)Nor will there ever be any such after them, ... 4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; (I really don't know what to make of the Horse appearance... maybe a uniform? )And like swift steeds, so they run. 5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, ... Like a strong people set in battle array. I've sometimes wondered if perhaps the Joel 2 army is actually the Church on those beautiful white horses that are coming back with Jesus at the end of the tribulation period... Now that you've connected it with the Song of Solomon passage, it makes me wonder all the more! |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 31, 2017 19:25:21 GMT -6
Yes, that is one of a number of possibilities, whatif! I can see several possibilities in these passages, and the questions then become, what is the main idea of each passage, and what is God trying to actually tell us through all this?
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 20:08:34 GMT -6
Problem is, Socal, sometimes the biblical context changes. Often times there is paralellism between different passages, and then the question becomes, what the parallel means. Patterns in the scripture are important. Often in one passage there will be more than one meaning. I do believe each passage has a primary meaning, and then many times there is a secondary and multiple ancillary meanings possible. cgvet, I think, is bringing out a possible valid secondary meaning in SOS and seeing if it links to Joel. Joel has at least 2 meanings immediately apparent for its locust hoards. One is the literal locust hoards that ravished Israel at the time he wrote, the other is the armies the Lord will send to afflict Israel in the end times, ie, Tribulation era. However, it is not clear what the nature of the army in Joel is. Even though God sends it, it is not clear whether the army is man-made, man-equipped, machine-equipped (think drones), demonic-sourced, actual demons/fallen angels, etc., the locust beings from the pit from Rev. 9, or the angelic/saint-equipped army of Christ. Trying to sort through the soup has always been a challenge, and part of this is because God made it intentionally difficult. We have to study thoroughly and also depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us as we dig deeply for the riches of God's Word. The description in Rev. 9 parallels the depictions of the Egyptian gods that the plagues of Egypt mocked, where God was showing His power over their false gods. These are demons from the Abyss, or at least representative of them. |
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 20:13:56 GMT -6
Well. Let's see. Both are describing an Army. Both are saying the army has the likeness of horses. Both are the only books in the entire Bible that contain "pillars" and "smoke" together. Both contain imagery of the army "Over mountaintops they leap" vs "Leaping upon the mountains"... Both are the only books in the entire Bible that contain "leap" and "mountain" together. Both contain imagery of darkness: What part of SoS are you reading? the part you quoted says nothing of horses, or leaping over mountaintops. The 60 men being an army is debatable. Both do mention night. You are incorrect about pillars and smoke, that's a reference to Exodus, where the children of Israel followed a pillar of smoke by day to the promised land (another picture of Christ). The Parable of the Ten Virgins is ultimately about those Jews who missed their Messiah. It is not necessarily an end-time parable about Christians who aren't Christian enough, like many preachers like to scare their congregations with. If you want to find the rapture in SoS, look at SoS 2:8-13 - which is one of the main reasons i don't like saying that Sept. 21-23 is the rapture, because those verses may indicate late April-early May. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 31, 2017 20:23:43 GMT -6
Well. Let's see. Both are describing an Army. Both are saying the army has the likeness of horses. Both are the only books in the entire Bible that contain "pillars" and "smoke" together. Both contain imagery of the army "Over mountaintops they leap" vs "Leaping upon the mountains"... Both are the only books in the entire Bible that contain "leap" and "mountain" together. Both contain imagery of darkness: What part of SoS are you reading? the part you quoted says nothing of horses, or leaping over mountaintops. The 60 men being an army is debatable. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the 'Beloved' comparing the girl to a horse:SoS 1:9 "I have compared you, my love,To my filly among Pharaoh’s chariots." (a filly is a female horse) (and chariots are pulled by horses)Here is the girl comparing the 'Beloved' to a horse:SoS 2:9 "My beloved is like a gazelle or a young stag." (a stag is a male deer)... but LIKE....!Notice this: 1:9 and 2:9.... Interesting?Now the verse about leaping and mountains SoS 2:8 "The voice of my beloved!
Behold, he comes
Leaping upon the mountains,
Skipping upon the hills." |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 31, 2017 20:29:40 GMT -6
sorry, uscgvet, but actually a stag is not a horse. A filly is, but a stag is the british name for a male deer, what we here, would call a buck. wikidiff.com/stag/hart |
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 20:32:46 GMT -6
What part of SoS are you reading? the part you quoted says nothing of horses, or leaping over mountaintops. The 60 men being an army is debatable. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the 'Beloved' comparing the girl to a horse:SoS 1:9 "I have compared you, my love,To my filly among Pharaoh’s chariots." (a filly is a female horse)Here is the girl comparing the 'Beloved' to a horse:SoS 2:9 "My beloved is like a gazelle or a young stag." (a stag is a male horse)Notice this: 1:9 and 2:9.... Interesting?
Now the verse about leaping and mountains SoS 2:8 "The voice of my beloved!
Behold, he comes
Leaping upon the mountains,
Skipping upon the hills."I think you need to look at the contexts - which define the terms in the bible, not the other way around. SoS I think is certainly describing the 1st and 2nd comings. Joel is dealing with the end times. It is possible that Joel is talking about the army of Israel (which is by far the best in the Middle East), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a tool of judgement - which it sounds like it is. In SoS it is describing those surrounding the bride, aka Israel. It is a different context. I'm off to work for the night. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 31, 2017 20:33:39 GMT -6
Gee,... I wonder what the word "like" means?
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 20:33:51 GMT -6
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Post by socalexile on Jul 31, 2017 20:34:37 GMT -6
Gee,... I wonder what the word "like" means? Please read: www.ancient-hebrew.org/language_philosophy.htmlYou may want it to be true, but you have to read the bible for what it says is true - if we come to the same conclusion, we must do so from the text. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 31, 2017 20:38:30 GMT -6
Gee,... I wonder what the word "like" means? Please read: www.ancient-hebrew.org/language_philosophy.htmlYou may want it to be true, but you have to read the bible for what it says is true - if we come to the same conclusion, we must do so from the text. So SoS says "My beloved is like a roe or a young hart:" That means the "beloved" is neither but has the appearance of one! SOOOO... Neither a roe, NOR a young hart... but has the APPEARANCE! biblehub.com/kjvs/songs/2.htmJoel 2: "Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;" |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 31, 2017 20:49:53 GMT -6
Good article, socal. The philosophy differences are huge. I can't figure out what he means about Noah's ark--I do think God gives exact dimensions for a reason, and when He gives the dimensions, those are the dimensions He means.
But overall, the reasoning of the article is good.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 31, 2017 20:56:09 GMT -6
Let me re-quote MYSELF: "Both are saying the army has the likeness of horses."
This "army" has the appearance of a roe, or a young hart, or a horse but it's not any of them!
It's something completely different as Joel says...
It's something new! That looks like a roe, hart, or horse.
Even the girl is being "Compared" to a horse... SHE IS NOT A HORSE EITHER!
And the article you quoted is really good!
I agree, the stag = deer or roe; but that was a distraction from the word "like"...
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Post by socalexile on Aug 1, 2017 6:39:10 GMT -6
Let me re-quote MYSELF: "Both are saying the army has the likeness of horses." This "army" has the appearance of a roe, or a young hart, or a horse but it's not any of them! It's something completely different as Joel says... It's something new! That looks like a roe, hart, or horse. Even the girl is being "Compared" to a horse... SHE IS NOT A HORSE EITHER! And the article you quoted is really good! I agree, the stag = deer or roe; but that was a distraction from the word "like"... I have no idea what you are trying to refute at this point. The link I gave you was to let you know that Hebrew is a concrete language that expresses concepts by their relation to the five senses. A ram is strong and so is an oak, thus the word used for both denotes strength. Look a the word for "roe": www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6643&t=NKJV from H6638 in the sense of prominence; splendor (as conspicuous):—beautiful(-ty), glorious (-ry), goodly, pleasant, roe(-buck). She is saying that her love has splendor and prominence by comparing him to a roe. And the word for hart: www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H354&t=NKJV an intensive form of H352 (in the sense of ram); a stag or male deer:—hart. She is saying He is strong. SoS is defining characteristics of how the Bride sees her Groom. These descriptions can also be used for an army, but that does not mean that her Groom IS an army or is like an army in the same sense that you are thinking of it. Please look at the contexts of what you are reading. You are taking two statements in SoS from separate portions denoting different things and trying to fit them in the context of Joel; that doesn't work hermenutically. I only brought up SoS 2:8-13 to show you the rapture language used with clues on the season. The language is similar to Joel, but the contexts are totally different. |
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 1, 2017 7:49:24 GMT -6
Let me re-quote MYSELF: "Both are saying the army has the likeness of horses." This "army" has the appearance of a roe, or a young hart, or a horse but it's not any of them! It's something completely different as Joel says... It's something new! That looks like a roe, hart, or horse. Even the girl is being "Compared" to a horse... SHE IS NOT A HORSE EITHER! And the article you quoted is really good! I agree, the stag = deer or roe; but that was a distraction from the word "like"... I have no idea what you are trying to refute at this point. The link I gave you was to let you know that Hebrew is a concrete language that expresses concepts by their relation to the five senses. A ram is strong and so is an oak, thus the word used for both denotes strength. Look a the word for "roe": www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6643&t=NKJV from H6638 in the sense of prominence; splendor (as conspicuous):—beautiful(-ty), glorious (-ry), goodly, pleasant, roe(-buck). She is saying that her love has splendor and prominence by comparing him to a roe. And the word for hart: www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H354&t=NKJV an intensive form of H352 (in the sense of ram); a stag or male deer:—hart. She is saying He is strong. SoS is defining characteristics of how the Bride sees her Groom. These descriptions can also be used for an army, but that does not mean that her Groom IS an army or is like an army in the same sense that you are thinking of it. Please look at the contexts of what you are reading. You are taking two statements in SoS from separate portions denoting different things and trying to fit them in the context of Joel; that doesn't work hermenutically. I only brought up SoS 2:8-13 to show you the rapture language used with clues on the season. The language is similar to Joel, but the contexts are totally different. I see horse, roe, and stag... that's an animal...a strong one, yes! It's still translated as the likeness of all three of those animals, but not actually being any of them. Based on your "hermenutically" driven opinion, SoS is not describing an animal, so YOUR literal translation would say: "My beloved is like a strong or a young glorious:" (That doesn't make any since? Are you kidding me? and the Translation doesn't say that!) [My beloved is like a verb or a adverb verb] If the translation was written in your "hermenutically" driven opinion it would probably be: "My beloved is like a strong man or a young and glorious man:" (because it's not an animal we are talking about here. The subject is "My beloved") The KJV Bible was actually translated to say: "My beloved is like a roe or a young hart:" ( Actual Translated verse ) [My beloved is like a noun or a adverb noun] (Are you trying to change this from what the Bible says to something it doesn't say?) "SoS is defining characteristics of how the Bride sees her Groom." -- I agree with this comment! The characteristics are of an animal that only looks like a horse, roe, or hart! SoS 1:9 " I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots." (Yea... a company... of horses... of Pharaoh's chariots... yea... no army of horses here! I must be reading into it... It just means she/he is strong, beautiful, glorious!) SoS 2:17 "Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether." (I'm sure this means —beautiful(-ty), glorious (-ry), goodly, pleasant, roe(-buck)... Yea... That's it... It means turn, and be (glorious, beautiful, goodly, and pleasant) upon the mountains! I highly doubt it means exactly what it says... Turn, and be like "an animal" upon the mountains) (It truly doesn't mean that after the shadows flee away, that the animal like creature should turn, and leap on mountain tops to get away... Nope! Doesn't mean that at all!) SoS 6:12 "Or ever I was aware, my soul made me like the chariots of Amminadib." (Uh huh... ok... more strong, beautiful, glorious talk!) SoS 6:13 "Return, return, O Shulamite; return, return, that we may look upon thee. What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of two armies." (What will you see when you look at the Shulamite ... two armies? This must be one really beautiful, strong, and glorious non-army thing that has nothing to do with a creature that looks like a roe, hart, or horse which leaps between mountain tops!) |
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