paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jun 22, 2017 9:43:52 GMT -6
I have been praying and meditating on who might be the male-child from the Revelation 12 for the last couple of weeks. The interpretation of the male-child being the church didn’t sit well with me. I'm not a fan of traditional or popular interpretations. Apostle John specifically pointed out 2 times that this child is male. I know the analogy to the body of Christ, but if we look at Adam and Eve, whom apostle Paul compared to Christ and the church, we can see that the male-child is someone else. Eve hasn’t been conceived and hasn’t been born of any woman. The Lord took the rib (side) from Adam and created the woman from it. There is difference in Hebrew words on how God created Adam and Eve. The Adam was formed from the dust like the child formed in the womb of a mother. The physical body of our Lord (second Adam) also was formed by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Scripture says that the Lord built the woman. The Hebrew word banah means to build a house. That’s why apostle Peter compared believers to the living stones. The church isn’t born. It has been built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the corner stone (Adam’s rib). Also, when the Lord brought the woman to Adam she was already grown-up. Adam didn’t marry little Eve, when he said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh…”.  So let’s get back to the male-child of Revelation 12. I do believe he represents 144,000 of the children of Israel. They are called the “firstfruits to God”. We can also see them at the throne of God to where this male-child was taken. (Rev.14:3, Rev.12:5) They are also called “virgins”, that’s why I think the parable of 10 virgins more applies to them (5 wise virgins) and to the house of Israel rather than to the church. I also believe that the 42 weeks of Jupiter spending in the belly of the constellation Virgo represents 42 months or the first 3.5 years of tribulation. During this time 2 witnesses will prophesy and the 144,000 will be sealed. The Revelation 12 sign, I believe, represents the beginning (conception of the male-child) of these 42 months. In the middle of the tribulation (birth of the male-child) the 144,000 will be caught up to God and will go up together with the 2 witnesses in the cloud. After they are gone the woman (Israel) will flee and be preserved by God for another 3.5 years. And at the end of the tribulation as apostle Paul said: “all Israel will be saved”, as it is written, `The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob’. As for the rapture of the church, I am a believer of the pre-tribulation rapture. From the chapter 4 of the book of Revelation the church is not mentioned at all until chapter 19 where she is getting married to the Lamb. In the first verse of Revelation 4 the Bible says: “I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard [was] like a trumpet speaking with me…”. There are some clues here about the rapture of the church. The “open door” is Jesus Himself and the “voice like a trumpet” is the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God (1 Thes.4:16). John here is the type of the end-time believers who as Jesus said: “remain till I come.” (John 21:23, 1 Thes.4:15) But that altogether is another story...  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 22, 2017 10:08:48 GMT -6
Wow. That actually makes a lot of sense.
I'll have to think about that.
But also, I suspect that the Rev. 12 passage is a triple meaning, if that's the case:
1. It re-addresses Christ's birth
2. It addresses the Rapture of the church
3. It may also address the 144,000.
I certainly see no problem with the 144,000 being raptured at the mid-point, in fact that seems to make sense. Regarding the 10 virgins, I would need to look at that some more. That passage has never made a ton of sense to me before, but so far this doesn't help clarify it much, though I see your logic.
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Post by whatif on Jun 22, 2017 11:59:25 GMT -6
Paul, your theory about the 144,000 is intriguing! I am amazed by the multi-faceted gem of a prophecy the Revelation 12 passage is showing itself to be! May I ask you to continue your thoughts on Revelation 12? For instance, how does the Dragon fit in?
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 13:34:48 GMT -6
I certainly see no problem with the 144,000 being raptured at the mid-point, in fact that seems to make sense. Regarding the 10 virgins, I would need to look at that some more. That passage has never made a ton of sense to me before, but so far this doesn't help clarify it much, though I see your logic. I may be misunderstanding him, but Paul said that the manchild represented the 144,000, implying that the rapture of the 144,000 is about 3 months away if the speculation about 9/23/17 is correct. |
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 14:43:54 GMT -6
Another point on this that just occurred to me. The verse:
Revelation 12:1
¶And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
From what I have read, pretty much everyone believes the twelve stars represents the twelve tribes of Israel. It's a rather straightforward conclusion that the group "harpazo"ed will come from the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 14:59:37 GMT -6
I would like to respectfully disagree. It's seems from my own study that the 144,000 are sealed within the Tribulation. Also, I don't see any textual evidence that the 144,000 are raptured. Can you give me some, Paul? Thanks.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 22, 2017 16:32:03 GMT -6
I certainly see no problem with the 144,000 being raptured at the mid-point, in fact that seems to make sense. Regarding the 10 virgins, I would need to look at that some more. That passage has never made a ton of sense to me before, but so far this doesn't help clarify it much, though I see your logic. I may be misunderstanding him, but Paul said that the manchild represented the 144,000, implying that the rapture of the 144,000 is about 3 months away if the speculation about 9/23/17 is correct. Not necessarily. We have stated repeatedly on here that the sign itself occurs on Sept. 23, 2017, but the individual events (and there are several) depicted in Chapter 12 do not all have to occur at exactly that instance. However, I do think the context of the passage does seem to indicate that at the instant of the "birth" part of the Rev. 12 sign, that there will be a rapture event at or very near to that time. So you are right to bring it up, but I don't say it is conclusive. |
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Post by kjs on Jun 23, 2017 9:31:02 GMT -6
I disagree with the idea that the “child” is the 144K. It appear to be the 144K, which comes from all the tribes of Israel (except one – which is anomaly on its own) have a specific purpose or duty assigned to them by God.
That purpose (which has not been clearly spelled out in the text we have) appears to bring more people into the household of God – (or more people to salvation) – all during the time of tribulation; and specifically during the Great Tribulation.
It seems to me – if they were to be “raptured” away before the end of the tribulation – than their job / purpose would not be fulfilled.
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jun 24, 2017 7:08:42 GMT -6
Paul, your theory about the 144,000 is intriguing! I am amazed by the multi-faceted gem of a prophecy the Revelation 12 passage is showing itself to be! May I ask you to continue your thoughts on Revelation 12? For instance, how does the Dragon fit in? Thank you guys for being receptive. I was expecting some stones. :-) That's the usual reaction to my grace-based teachings among Russian speaking Christians. :-) I do believe that the war in Heaven will be in the middle of the tribulation. That's when the dragon will be cast down to earth. He will possess the anti-Christ person/beast and the man of sin will be revealed. He will break the covenant with the Israel, kill two witnesses and will sit in the temple of God presenting himself to be God. That is the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus said to the Jews: "When you see abomination of desolation let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..." That's when the woman will be given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she will spend the second half of the great tribulation. There is also interesting thing that the Lord pointed me out. In Rev 12 it said that the woman cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. This "cry and pains" is the first half of the Jacob's trouble. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 24, 2017 7:15:20 GMT -6
Interesting. That could all work out that way, I suppose. I've also wondered about the timing of when Jesus alights on the Mt. of Olives and splits it, causing a passageway for the Israelites to escape--I've always been taught that occurs at the full end of the 7 year tribulation, but what about the possibility of that occurring at the midpoint as well?
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jun 24, 2017 7:37:44 GMT -6
Wow. That actually makes a lot of sense. I'll have to think about that. But also, I suspect that the Rev. 12 passage is a triple meaning, if that's the case: 1. It re-addresses Christ's birth 2. It addresses the Rapture of the church 3. It may also address the 144,000. I certainly see no problem with the 144,000 being raptured at the mid-point, in fact that seems to make sense. Regarding the 10 virgins, I would need to look at that some more. That passage has never made a ton of sense to me before, but so far this doesn't help clarify it much, though I see your logic. I agree that it does make sense.  I also believe that the great multitude in Rev 7 is the tribulation believers that will be raptured at the mid-tribulation along with 144,000. That is why after John saw the sealing of 144,000 he saw the great multitude in heaven with palm branches. And the elder said to John: "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...". Some who believe in pre-trib rapture have troubles with this verse, but i don't, because this great multitude is the tribulation believers and not the church. If somebody believes that this great multitude represent the church than he needs to believe in the mid-trib rapture of the church as well.As for me, I believe that the 24 elders represent old-testament saints and the 4 living creatures represent the believers of the church age. No wonder they sang: "... And have redeemed US to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation." The angels didn't sing this song for the Lamb didn't redeem angels. And the words "Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" indicate that the 4 leaving creatures and the elders are of the Jews (tribes) and Gentiles (nations)."Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he] [is] a new creature..." (2 Cor 5:17 KJV) or new living creature. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 24, 2017 10:49:17 GMT -6
Hmmmm. Well, as for the Rev. 7 saints being ones saved during the Tribulation, we have been over that ground many times before in other threads--the language is ambiguous in the Greek, and could either mean "saved from in the Tribulation" or "saved from having to go into the Tribulation." Rt's thread about the alternative pre-trib addresses this issue thoroughly, and we have debated it at great length in that thread. Either reading is grammatically possible in the Greek. I tend to believe that rt's understanding of the passage is correct, however, I am not certain. It does make a difference to the sequence of events. There are later passages in Revelation that show additional believers that are saved during the Tribulation. It is clear this will be the case. Whether the Rev 7 multitude are the church or the redeemed from the first half of the Trib is something we have not completely managed to settle, but either is possible. As to the 4 living creatures representing believers of the church age--this is the first time I have ever heard anyone propose this, and I don't think I have enough evidence to support this theory. If these 4 living creatures are not exactly the same 4 cherubim who were seen by Ezekiel in chapter 1 of his book, they are at least clearly corresponding to them. I have always understood them to be angelic beings. The 24 elders being Old Testament Saints agrees with rt's assessment I believe. If you haven't already read her big thread, I highly recommend reading it from beginning to end, and then compare notes. unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 12:13:10 GMT -6
I have understood that the four living creatures represent the four Gospels. Each one has a face that represented Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Matthew was represented by the lion/kingship, Mark was represented by a bull/servanthood, Luke was represented by the man/human and John was represented by an eagle/divine. That has to do with some thinking that in the orient- eagles represented divineness versus vultures.
I also see that those saved in Revelation 7 are those marked to be saved during revelation 8. I believe that I am seeing Revelation 7 being what happens "within" revelation 8"s silence.
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Post by whatif on Jun 24, 2017 14:05:24 GMT -6
Paul, your theory about the 144,000 is intriguing! I am amazed by the multi-faceted gem of a prophecy the Revelation 12 passage is showing itself to be! May I ask you to continue your thoughts on Revelation 12? For instance, how does the Dragon fit in? Thank you guys for being receptive. I was expecting some stones. :-) That's the usual reaction to my grace-based teachings among Russian speaking Christians. :-) You speak Russian, Paul? How awesome! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 17:30:38 GMT -6
Hey, if you can biblically back it up, and you have a good argument, we will probably accept It! I know for a fact how confusing and out of order Revelation can be. I believe the reason why is so the Spirit can reveal things to us, or unseat knowledge as time passes as He pleases. This has a few kinks, but it seems sound. |
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