|
Post by Natalie on Apr 7, 2023 10:47:55 GMT -6
I am reading through Romans and came to chapter 2. And I wondered about verse 9...Is this verse often applied incorrectly? Romans 2:9 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. I have heard this verse applied to Gentiles. That once we become a Believer, God circumcises our heart, and we are a Jew spiritually. Something like that. But lets look at it in context. It starts in verse 2:17-18 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know His will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law... then 2:25-3:2 25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.
It seems to me he is saying in verses 28 and 29, that although they would call themselves a Jew by family lineage (outwardly), they must follow Christ and have their heart changed also (inwardly) to be a true Jew. It has nothing to do with Gentiles.
I know also that there is a verse or several that says out of Jews and Gentiles God has made one new man. (Ephesians 2:11 for example) So in a sense we no longer remain Jew or Gentile when we become believers.
I know Romans also talks about Gentiles being grafted in, but a branch grafted in remains the same type of branch. A wild olive branch doesn't become a natural one. Does it? If you grafted an apple tree branch onto a pear tree, it would still produce apples. I don't think it would ever start producing pears. Someone correct me if I am totally off.
To become a Jew (part of Israel) in the Old Testament, one would marry an Israelite and join one of the tribes (e.g. Rahab). I would assume that would still hold true in the New Testament and even today. Or, one might choose to practice Judaism, but I don't know if that would necessarily make them a Jew (part of Israel). Thoughts? Are there other verses out there that would help clarify this?
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Apr 7, 2023 13:29:23 GMT -6
I am reading through Romans and came to chapter 2. And I wondered about verse 9...Is this verse often applied incorrectly? Romans 2:9 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. I have heard this verse applied to Gentiles. That once we become a Believer, God circumcises our heart, and we are a Jew spiritually. Something like that. But lets look at it in context. It starts in verse 2:17-18 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know His will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law... then 2:25-3:2 25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.
It seems to me he is saying in verses 28 and 29, that although they would call themselves a Jew by family lineage (outwardly), they must follow Christ and have their heart changed also (inwardly) to be a true Jew. It has nothing to do with Gentiles.
I know also that there is a verse or several that says out of Jews and Gentiles God has made one new man. (Ephesians 2:11 for example) So in a sense we no longer remain Jew or Gentile when we become believers.
I know Romans also talks about Gentiles being grafted in, but a branch grafted in remains the same type of branch. A wild olive branch doesn't become a natural one. Does it? If you grafted an apple tree branch onto a pear tree, it would still produce apples. I don't think it would ever start producing pears. Someone correct me if I am totally off.
To become a Jew in the Old Testament, one would marry an Israelite and join one of the tribes (e.g. Rahab). I would assume that would still hold true in the New Testament and even today. Or, one might choose to practice Judaism, but I don't know if that would necessarily make them a Jew. Thoughts? Are there other verses out there that would help clarify this? I don't have too many prepared thoughts on this one.
Just mostly saying Hi.
Sounds like you're on the right track.
I like to avoid these issues.
I remember dispensationalists can get mad if we combine the "Church" and the "Jews" together as the Israel of God. They want to keep the two separated. I don't know. It's not my forte. I never wanted to marry a Jewish girl. Sounds like too much works involved. Lol. Now I just have to believe in Jesus and I am a Jew, Abraham's seed.
I once wanted to marry a native Indian Chippewa girl so I wouldn't have to pay property taxes. I'm not worried about it. As long as I'm in there with that great cloud of witnesses. Picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe. Rejoice that our names are written in heaven. That's all that matters.
A.W. Pink comments on it, "What could be plainer than that? In the light of such a Scripture, is it not passing strange that there are today those-boasting loudly of their orthodoxy and bitterly condemning all who differ-who insist that the name 'Jew' belongs only to the natural descendants of Jacob"
Jews once declared they were the seed of Abraham. Jesus responded by saying that He knew they were the natural seed of Abraham and then replied: "but ye seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you". He then adds why His word has no place with them: "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do that which ye have seen with your father".
Then, again, the Jews declared, "Abraham is our father". Jesus rebuked their false view of what it means to be a child of Abraham by stating, "IF ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham", and proceeded to state that Abraham would not seek to kill Him.
Jesus explained "IF" you were the children of Abraham, you would rejoice to see my day, henceforth, since you do not rejoice to see my day, you are NOT the Children of Abraham.
In fact, Jesus concluded by telling the Jews that the true living God was not their Father and tells them who was. Jesus declares: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do".
This passage seems to foreshadow Jesus' statement in Revelation 3:9, "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie".
I don't think Jesus was talking about the literal Jews of national Israel.
Just like I don't think the outer court of Revelation 11's "gentiles", who trample the holy city for 42 months, are yellow haired people born in Michigan like me.
Gentiles = the Bad Guys.
Jews, wild or natural, = the Israel of God.
Justin Martyr on "the true spiritual Israel"
Jesus Christ ... is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.
Martin Luther on Galatians 6:16
Lectures on Galatians, 1519.[8] "Walk" is the same verb that is used above (5:25). "Walk," that is, go, by this rule. By what rule? It is this rule, that they are new creatures in Christ, that they shine with the true righteousness and holiness which come from faith, and that they do not deceive themselves and others with the hypocritical righteousness and holiness which come from the Law. Upon the latter there will be wrath and tribulation, and upon the former will rest peace and mercy. Paul adds the words "upon the Israel of God." He distinguishes this Israel from the Israel after the flesh, just as in 1 Cor. 10:18 he speaks of those who are the Israel of the flesh, not the Israel of God. Therefore peace is upon Gentiles and Jews, provided that they go by the rule of faith and the Spirit.
Lectures on Galatians, 1535.
"Upon the Israel of God." Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election, the Law, etc. (Rom. 9:4-5). It is as though he were saying: "The Israel of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but those who, with Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now disclosed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."
Happy Good Friday.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Apr 9, 2023 12:44:51 GMT -6
Hi to you, davewatchman ! I'm still thinking on this topic and taking in what you posted. I would call myself a dispensationalist and want to keep Jew and Church (spiritual Israel?) separate when the Bible keeps them separate. I do think the term "Israel of God" is probably speaking of believers. I'll have to go look at the context of that verse again.
--------------------------------------------
I did find an answer, maybe, to one of my questions. It comes from the passage our pastor used this morning.
I had posted:
To answer that last part: Acts 13:26 “Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God [Gentiles], to us has been sent the message of this salvation." and Acts 13:43 And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism [Gentiles] followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
So, they didn't become Jews (part of Israel) by becoming converts to Judaism.
|
|