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Post by yardstick on Mar 5, 2023 16:22:26 GMT -6
I noticed this a couple days ago: biblehub.com/revelation/11-8.htmI believe that most people would draw the conclusion that the city in this passage is Jerusalem. I believe the clause here in blue is saying Jerusalem is like Sodom and Egypt (at the time of this prophecy fulfillment). But then the question is begged: Where are the terms Sodom and Egypt used figuratively elsewhere in Scripture for Jerusalem? I did a keyword search in BibleHub, but none of the passages that used either Sodom or Egypt appeared to be figurative. |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 5, 2023 18:10:29 GMT -6
We had this very same question asked today in Sunday School. The teacher replied that because there will be so much homosexuality being practiced they will be called Sodom and because there will be so much idol worship it will be called Egypt. So, his interpretation is that it is future and what it's going to be called during the 70th week.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 9, 2023 9:00:08 GMT -6
Ran across Jeremiah 23:14 a couple days ago. Would that fit?
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 10, 2023 10:21:05 GMT -6
You just noticed this now? I noticed it in 2013. I believe that most people would draw the conclusion that the city in this passage is Jerusalem. I believe the clause here in blue is saying Jerusalem is like Sodom and Egypt (at the time of this prophecy fulfillment). So does the "New Living" Translation from your link.
They made the decision for us:
But then the question is begged: Where are the terms Sodom and Egypt used figuratively elsewhere in Scripture for Jerusalem? I did a keyword search in BibleHub, but none of the passages that used either Sodom or Egypt appeared to be figurative. I'm doubting the dots were even available for us to connect this together back in 2013.
I tend to read Daniel and Revelation independently. I'm not sure that's a good thing. I also consider examples where OT Daniel and NT gospel books may have been using end time symbolism. Where Daniel's desire of women, is the desire of a church, the Christian church, which is Jesus. Or when Jesus said flee to the mountains, them being the seven specific mountains of Revelation 13. The Jeremiah 23 which Natalie posted looks OK. And Ezekiel 16 compares Jerusalem to Sodom: But I continue to insist that these things are most likely happening now. We are in, or even just past, the prophetic time periods where these things have, and are taking place. So I don't think that the "great city" is Jerusalem.
And so the prophetic time periods themselves should be able to dictate what doctrine is true. The "great city" has graduated from the first century people who crucified Jesus, into the global community now at war with God. They are the outer court, not to be measured. It really is a tale of two cities, God's Beloved City, and the "great city" which surrounds us. We are God's holy mountain. The king of the north has pitched his tent, made himself a line of demarcation, between the sea of many nations and peoples and tongues, and God's Holy Mountain.
The "great city" was the jeering crowd of hard hearted people that yelled "Crucify Him", and kept shouting even louder, “Crucify him!”
What makes up a city? It's a population of Citi-zens. So in this case, the "great city" is populated with a vast number of hard hearted people, like Pharaoh, and the sexually immoral adulterous Sodomites, who would refuse to submit to the teachings of our Lord.
Like at Jesus' trial when the "great city", ALL the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!, they are outnumbering us to this very day.
But my understanding of the "great city" being split into three parts is complete destruction.
Where all three thirds are destroyed.
Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him. |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 10, 2023 18:59:35 GMT -6
Ran across Jeremiah 23:14 a couple days ago. Would that fit? I believe so. I went through it yesterday; and in addition, I believe we are given examples... I am hoping to find one or two other passages that basically say the same thing. |
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 11, 2023 6:18:29 GMT -6
Ran across Jeremiah 23:14 a couple days ago. Would that fit? I believe so. I went through it yesterday; and in addition, I believe we are given examples... I am hoping to find one or two other passages that basically say the same thing.
The "great city" = the "woman", the "harlot", (the whore of Babylon), who rides the composite beast of Revelation 13. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_BabylonYou can clearly see that geographical Jerusalem does not have dominion over the kings of the earth right now. So it's probably talking about something symbolic, or figurative. How would the many nations and peoples and tongues have dominion over the kings of the earth? They voted the thing into power. The defiant people wanted leaders which would be given a mouth to speak into law great things which would blaspheme the name of God and those who live in heaven. Here again is a snapshot, an example, of the many nations and peoples and tongues, ("great city"), that have voted the composite beast into power. Worship comes from the word "Proskuneo" and can also mean to submit to, or obey. (I got this list from a Time Magazine page which reported the first 21 nations to legalize same sex marriage) 1) The Netherlands (2000) 2) Belgium (2003) 3) Canada (2005) 4) Spain (2005) 5) South Africa (2006) 6) Norway (2009) 7) Sweden (2009) 8) Argentina (2010) 9) Iceland (2010) 10) Portugal (2010) 11) Denmark (2012) 12) Brazil (2013) 13) England and Wales (2013) 14) France (2013) 15) New Zealand (2013) 16) Uruguay (2013) 17) Luxembourg (2014) 18) Scotland (2014) 19) Finland (signed 2015, effective 2017) 20) Ireland (2015) 21) United States (2015)<-------1290 Days------->Sun/Moon 21) United States (2015)<-------1290 Days------->EofW www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=06&d1=26&y1=2015&m2=1&d2=6&y2=2019The phrase the "great city" that is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified, is all symbolic and the Bible defines this symbol in Revelation 17. The Bible says: "the woman is the "great city" that rules over the kings of the Earth." The book of Revelation contrasts two women. One is pure and gives birth to the Savior of the world. The other woman is a wealthy whore. The pure woman represents the people of God (His holy city). The whore represents the wicked (a "great city" containing people who worship the Dragon). The pure woman is called "the bride of Christ." The corrupt woman is called "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abominations of the Earth." The whore sits on a composite beast having seven heads and ten horns, drinking the blood of God’s prophets and saints. (By not obeying or submitting to the things that God's prophets and saints said to do). Corporately speaking, the wicked who join Lucifer’s theocratic government, (worship the Dragon because they worship the beast), make up "the great city." When the Bible says that the bodies of the Two Witnesses will lie in the street of the great city (the whore), the Bible is not talking about a geographical location. It is talking about a worldwide group of defiant people described as Sodom (sexual perverts), Egypt (hard hearts) and Jerusalem (people who rejected the clearest evidence of truth). It's these same types of rebellious people which kept shouting: "Crucify Him", when our Lord was on trial. I don't think it helps my case to say these things are happening now. It's a global event. The Beast that has risen from the abyss has probably already killed the Two Witnesses sometime before Friday June 24, 2022. Roe/Wade was one of the composite beast's crowning achievements. That would have never fallen during his 42 months. His 42 months of authority ran out soon after he killed the Two Witnesses as the inhabitants of the earth exchange gifts for their 3.5 days, which can be 3.5 years, where the prophetic time periods seem to appear as that Salvador Dali painting with the melting clocks.
“Arise, go to Nineveh, that "great city",
and call out against it, for their evil has come up before me.” - Jonah 1:2
Peaceful Sabbath. |
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Post by yardstick on Mar 12, 2023 17:05:26 GMT -6
Natalie , davewatchman , Dave, Thanks for your input, but based on the following, I am not sure I can 'buy' what I think you are 'selling'; although your general sentiments about behavior and such I do agree with. The word used for 'city' in Rev 11:8 is the word "poleos". a 'polis' is a densely populated geographic area, typically (at that time) with walls, and maybe a moat or other defensive structures. biblehub.com/greek/4172.htm. This word "poleos" is a genitive feminine singular noun (N-GFS) and as such is is referring to a single city (apparently cities are considered feminine in the hebrew language?). I do not know what your language background is, so just for the sake of making the record: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenitiveAttributes are those things which make one thing distinct from another: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attribute . It can also indicate something is associated with something else, or that something has a specific quality: There are 36 uses of the word "poleos" spelled "πόλεως" in Scripture, found here: biblehub.com/greek/poleo_s_4172.htm. Almost all of them refer specifically and literally to an actual city (not the world). Most of them can infer Jerusalem, unless the city is specifically called out; but I am not 100% sure they necessarily DO infer Jerusalem, maybe Gary who is more knowledgeable about word usage can clarify. It could be easily concluded that the above passages might refer specifically to Jerusalem, unless otherwise noted due to their 'attributive' nature. That is, if you know what city the incident occurred in, you know what city the author is talking about. I beleive most of the incidents referred to in the 36 passages occurred in Jerusalem; though a few might not have. It looks like most of those have the specific city referred to. If Gary can point out a common hebrew habit speaking about Jerusalem without actually ever using its name; then I would suggest that such a confirmation likely makes the above hypothesis definitive. I think we would use the phrase "city of _______", or "of the city of________" as a translation, and in many of the passages, that is exactly how it is translated (with the "of _____" being implied or inferred as whatever city the situation was occurring in - most of those are Jerusalem, geographically speaking). I suspect that what is occurring in these passages is that the city where the incident is occurring is being attributed to the incident. The Revelation 17 passage you quoted is NOT in the list. Instead, the Rev 17:11 passage uses "πόλις" instead of "πόλεως", and I believe this is a different meaning in the word. This word, is a nominative feminine singular noun (N-NFS), rather than G-NFS, and as such; I believe it's meaning is as follows': en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_case. It has 22 occurrences in the Scriptures biblehub.com/greek/polis_4172.htm. it's spelling is "polis", rather than 'poleos". This is the regular noun that we all know and love. The one we grew up with. The easiest to comprehend in other languages. The noun doing the action. So, since when does a literal city do something? Well, in this passage, the city is doing something. It is 'having kingship' (I would read this as "ruling") over the the 'rulers'. It is calling the shots. We might call it a "capital". It is the city that has been handed the authority that the 'kings of the earth' have. But there is no indication that the city in question is Jerusalem, or even the world. It is still a literal city. The "city" in the other passages isnt doing anything, it is being described as where something occurred. I do not know of any candidates for such a city, except maybe Washington D.C., Istanbul, Paris, or the capitals of a couple of the other nations that are right now; or will be, the economic super-powers starting in the next couple years. Washington D.C. does not have a port used for import and export of goods. Istanbul might, Paris does not ( see Rev 18:8-19). From what I have seen so far, the city in question might not even be 'on the map'. But if it is, and if it is not NYC (where the UN is); then for that to be the case, the US must be out of the picture. This is based on what I have been hearing about political and economic power redistribution that is going on globally over the course of the rest of this decade due to changes in demographics of the other powers around the globe. The woman who rides the beast; well, she (the prostitute/harlot) is an entity 'riding the coattails' of the AC. Not necessarily a city; though I could see the vatican in that position, with its 7 hills, and propensity to take up certain political causes (duly noting a lot of speeches by the last couple of pontiffs). I would suggest that Rev 17:16 indicates the city will be burned somehow, by the beast and his followers. Whether that is a nuke, or pitchforks and torches, IDK; but assuming we are talking about an Islamic Caliphate type AC, I could absolutely see this. Nevertheless, it also does not a fit the bill of the city in Ch 18. I believe they are different cities. Why would the AC 'nuke' his own capital? I find it interesting that your quote of the passage of Ezekiel 16 indicates that Jerusalem was considered the sister of Sodom. This would imply that they were built about the same time by the same people, or have some kind of political or economic relationship. The only historic information that I knew about that corroborates this, is in Genesis when Abraham interacts with the King of Jerusalem. BTW, anyone want to take a guess as to when, during the Israelite invasion of Canaan, the hebrews conquered Jerusalem? I always thought before that they built it. But now, seeing your passage, I bet not! BTW, Mecca is very close to the coast, and has a port near it (Jedda). It also is the seat of Islam, and is supposed to be having some kind of multi-religious center built there (I may be mistaken on location)? There is also a lot of shipping that goes through the Suez Canal, and past that area. Food for thought.
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Post by uscgvet on Mar 15, 2023 19:43:48 GMT -6
You just noticed this now? I noticed it in 2013. I believe that most people would draw the conclusion that the city in this passage is Jerusalem. I believe the clause here in blue is saying Jerusalem is like Sodom and Egypt (at the time of this prophecy fulfillment). So does the "New Living" Translation from your link.
They made the decision for us:
But then the question is begged: Where are the terms Sodom and Egypt used figuratively elsewhere in Scripture for Jerusalem? I did a keyword search in BibleHub, but none of the passages that used either Sodom or Egypt appeared to be figurative. I'm doubting the dots were even available for us to connect this together back in 2013.
I tend to read Daniel and Revelation independently. I'm not sure that's a good thing. I also consider examples where OT Daniel and NT gospel books may have been using end time symbolism. Where Daniel's desire of women, is the desire of a church, the Christian church, which is Jesus. Or when Jesus said flee to the mountains, them being the seven specific mountains of Revelation 13. The Jeremiah 23 which Natalie posted looks OK. And Ezekiel 16 compares Jerusalem to Sodom: But I continue to insist that these things are most likely happening now. We are in, or even just past, the prophetic time periods where these things have, and are taking place. So I don't think that the "great city" is Jerusalem.
And so the prophetic time periods themselves should be able to dictate what doctrine is true. The "great city" has graduated from the first century people who crucified Jesus, into the global community now at war with God. They are the outer court, not to be measured. It really is a tale of two cities, God's Beloved City, and the "great city" which surrounds us. We are God's holy mountain. The king of the north has pitched his tent, made himself a line of demarcation, between the sea of many nations and peoples and tongues, and God's Holy Mountain.
The "great city" was the jeering crowd of hard hearted people that yelled "Crucify Him", and kept shouting even louder, “Crucify him!”
What makes up a city? It's a population of Citi-zens. So in this case, the "great city" is populated with a vast number of hard hearted people, like Pharaoh, and the sexually immoral adulterous Sodomites, who would refuse to submit to the teachings of our Lord.
Like at Jesus' trial when the "great city", ALL the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!, they are outnumbering us to this very day.
But my understanding of the "great city" being split into three parts is complete destruction.
Where all three thirds are destroyed.
Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him. This is all good information but there's one little catch. The Gospel writers made it very clear that: Jesus was crucified outside the city walls at a place called Golgotha. Leviticus 14:33–45 (See mold? close house for 7 days (70 years), still mold? destroy and rebuild, still mold? destroy and rebuild, still mold, destroy forever) [1st temple; 70 years; 2nd Temple; 3rd Temple destroyed forever] It wasn't in Jerusalem. I believe this represents a pattern like with the Temple. Outside the city walls is representative of the nations. The world (unclean per Leviticus 14:33-45). The world is like Sodom and Egypt. The world crucified Christ. The world rejected God and his Son. The patterns expand to a world wide scale. Also, add to your list: Isaiah 1 (Jerusalem and Judah as Sodom and Gomorrah) Isaiah 3 (Jerusalem and Judah as Sodom and Gomorrah) |
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 18, 2023 11:53:51 GMT -6
Natalie , davewatchman , Dave, Thanks for your input, but based on the following, I am not sure I can 'buy' what I think you are 'selling'; although your general sentiments about behavior and such I do agree with. The word used for 'city' in Rev 11:8 is the word "poleos". a 'polis' is a densely populated geographic area, typically (at that time) with walls, and maybe a moat or other defensive structures. biblehub.com/greek/4172.htm. This word "poleos" is a genitive feminine singular noun (N-GFS) and as such is is referring to a single city (apparently cities are considered feminine in the hebrew language?). I do not know what your language background is, so just for the sake of making the record: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenitiveAttributes are those things which make one thing distinct from another: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attribute . It can also indicate something is associated with something else, or that something has a specific quality: There are 36 uses of the word "poleos" spelled "πόλεως" in Scripture, found here: biblehub.com/greek/poleo_s_4172.htm. Almost all of them refer specifically and literally to an actual city (not the world). Most of them can infer Jerusalem, unless the city is specifically called out; but I am not 100% sure they necessarily DO infer Jerusalem, maybe Gary who is more knowledgeable about word usage can clarify. It could be easily concluded that the above passages might refer specifically to Jerusalem, unless otherwise noted due to their 'attributive' nature. That is, if you know what city the incident occurred in, you know what city the author is talking about. I beleive most of the incidents referred to in the 36 passages occurred in Jerusalem; though a few might not have. It looks like most of those have the specific city referred to. If Gary can point out a common hebrew habit speaking about Jerusalem without actually ever using its name; then I would suggest that such a confirmation likely makes the above hypothesis definitive. I think we would use the phrase "city of _______", or "of the city of________" as a translation, and in many of the passages, that is exactly how it is translated (with the "of _____" being implied or inferred as whatever city the situation was occurring in - most of those are Jerusalem, geographically speaking). I suspect that what is occurring in these passages is that the city where the incident is occurring is being attributed to the incident. The Revelation 17 passage you quoted is NOT in the list. Instead, the Rev 17:11 passage uses "πόλις" instead of "πόλεως", and I believe this is a different meaning in the word. This word, is a nominative feminine singular noun (N-NFS), rather than G-NFS, and as such; I believe it's meaning is as follows': en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_case. It has 22 occurrences in the Scriptures biblehub.com/greek/polis_4172.htm. it's spelling is "polis", rather than 'poleos". This is the regular noun that we all know and love. The one we grew up with. The easiest to comprehend in other languages. The noun doing the action. So, since when does a literal city do something? Well, in this passage, the city is doing something. It is 'having kingship' (I would read this as "ruling") over the the 'rulers'. It is calling the shots. We might call it a "capital". It is the city that has been handed the authority that the 'kings of the earth' have. But there is no indication that the city in question is Jerusalem, or even the world. It is still a literal city. The "city" in the other passages isnt doing anything, it is being described as where something occurred. I do not know of any candidates for such a city, except maybe Washington D.C., Istanbul, Paris, or the capitals of a couple of the other nations that are right now; or will be, the economic super-powers starting in the next couple years. Washington D.C. does not have a port used for import and export of goods. Istanbul might, Paris does not ( see Rev 18:8-19). From what I have seen so far, the city in question might not even be 'on the map'. But if it is, and if it is not NYC (where the UN is); then for that to be the case, the US must be out of the picture. This is based on what I have been hearing about political and economic power redistribution that is going on globally over the course of the rest of this decade due to changes in demographics of the other powers around the globe. The woman who rides the beast; well, she (the prostitute/harlot) is an entity 'riding the coattails' of the AC. Not necessarily a city; though I could see the vatican in that position, with its 7 hills, and propensity to take up certain political causes (duly noting a lot of speeches by the last couple of pontiffs). I would suggest that Rev 17:16 indicates the city will be burned somehow, by the beast and his followers. Whether that is a nuke, or pitchforks and torches, IDK; but assuming we are talking about an Islamic Caliphate type AC, I could absolutely see this. Nevertheless, it also does not a fit the bill of the city in Ch 18. I believe they are different cities. Why would the AC 'nuke' his own capital? I find it interesting that your quote of the passage of Ezekiel 16 indicates that Jerusalem was considered the sister of Sodom. This would imply that they were built about the same time by the same people, or have some kind of political or economic relationship. The only historic information that I knew about that corroborates this, is in Genesis when Abraham interacts with the King of Jerusalem. BTW, anyone want to take a guess as to when, during the Israelite invasion of Canaan, the hebrews conquered Jerusalem? I always thought before that they built it. But now, seeing your passage, I bet not! BTW, Mecca is very close to the coast, and has a port near it (Jedda). It also is the seat of Islam, and is supposed to be having some kind of multi-religious center built there (I may be mistaken on location)? There is also a lot of shipping that goes through the Suez Canal, and past that area. Food for thought. Great job on the word study write up. But what did you think of the Nineveh quote? “Arise, go to Nineveh, that "great city",
and call out against it, for their evil has come up before me.” - Jonah 1:2 I think you did a great job writing up the word study. And I don't want to discourage the use of it, even the law of first usage. But as I consider my own understanding of it, I keep thinking context is king, what is the little book John is eating, and what is the measuring rod he is given to measure the temple? I didn't think I want to be found in that outer court. And didn't the New Testament transfer some of the terminology around so that all who is born a jew not called a Jew, or he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; And so is Revelation not even mentioning geographical Jerusalem, but New Jerusalem. The Beloved City. But the prophetic time periods will have the final say.
Did you see what uscgvet wrote down there about being crucified outside the city?
It looked pretty good to me. Even the Strongs definition says:
Usage: a city, the inhabitants of a city.
Like the "evil" inhabitants of the "great city" Nineveh. Because of the context, and where I think we are in time, I still think it has to be happening now. I don't think there's enough time for the Two Witnesses to be Moses and Elijah. But I know where there's another guy who does.
Like how the grapes are harvested from the earth, and the winepress was trodden outside the city.
I don't read "outside the city" to mean geographical Jerusalem, or Golgotha.
I had also said here that I read Daniel and Revelation separately. I meant separately from the rest of the Bible. (that still didn't sound right)
What I mean is that the Apocalyptic Prophecies found in Daniel and Revelation have different, or unique, specifications than the other types of Biblical Prophecies.
1) Local Prophecy
These would include Noah's flood, or Jonah's visit to that "great city" of Nineveh. Or when that old time king saw his shadow go backwards. You guys can think of more.
2) Messianic Prophecy
These had to do with Jesus' first Visitation. Like Psalm 22 or Isaiah 52
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?
"He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions
Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.
3) Day of the Lord Prophecy
Mysterious in their structure. Like Isaiah 13. I was watching a John MacArthur video where he called them near/far prophecies. In a Day of the Lord Prophecy the Prophet can begin in an ancient Day of the Lord event to do with the Babylonians, and then seems to peer down through the millennia to the final and ultimate Day of the Lord that will include all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
4) Judaic Prophecy
These are conditional prophecies that pertained to ancient Israel. If. If. If.
If you do this, then I will do that.
"If they put away the bodies of their dead kings, then show them the plan of the Temple.
"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:
5) Apocalyptic Prophecy
Apocalyptic Prophecy has unique characteristics in time. These appear to be separated by chronological order. Then I saw. Then I looked, and behold, Then I saw another sign in heaven, Apocalyptic Prophecies will usually be associated with specific prophetic time periods, have a beginning point in time, an ending point in time, and follow a chronological order, so that when the chronological order is broken, the subject matter changes, and a new prophecy will begin. We go from a woman in the wilderness, to: "Now war arose in heaven. There are 17 Apocalyptic prophecies, and 18 prophetic time periods, in the Books of Daniel and Revelation. But I'm reading this guy. He's smart. He speaks Spanish, English, and reads and writes Hebrew and has a Torah on the scroll. He writes software code and articles for the University of Columbia. And he has the 6000 years documented to end with the fall feasts in 2026. (I say he's overshooting the heptad) He says that the Two Witnesses will begin their 1260 days next Tuesday, on the new moon of March 21, 2023. He says God is coming back to abolish the time of the Torahless.
Sounds like putting an end to lawlessness.
Should be something to see.
I think the Two Witnesses were just here already. They were the measuring rod John was given to measure the inner court. This would amount to what could be thought of as the judgment of the living. It has to happen just before Jesus comes.
Peaceful Sabbath.
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