To pray for our enemies or not?

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mike
Lamplighter

In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in all things charity.

Posts: 3,643

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 12, 2022 9:09:56 GMT -6 stormyknight likes this

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Post by mike on Jan 12, 2022 9:09:56 GMT -6

Hey all,
I've been tossing this subject in my head and wanted to see what I may be missing in the context I am seeing this OR if I am thinking what I am seeing is what I am seeing. I'd like to hear others thoughts on the subject.

Perhaps the thread title isnt exactly what I need it to be to capture the essence of the dialogue, but I suppose I can change it too

So as we continue to spiral out of control due to the virtual rejection of God in nearly every area of society, I am reminded of Romans 1. In this chapter we see God giving people over to their wicked desires for their own destruction.

I believe this preface to verse 18 is important in context of what Paul is trying to communicate

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Faith in the gospel of Christ opens our eyes to the wickedness of the world around us. Not head knowledge "oh I believe in Jesus" but the life of the people dont reflect that head knowledge belief.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The rulers of this wicked world hold the truth in unrighteousness - creation v. evolution (the physical creation itself + that of men, animals & creatures), climate change, murder v. right to life (abortion - just a lump of tissue, womens health), men are women and women are men and anyone can be anything they say they are...
These are just a few examples of the downward spiral, there are many more.
Those who hold the truth in unrighteousness claim that we should follow science, yet willfully ignore the visible creation of time & matter being created by the Creator who is not limited nor bound by either time or matter. No science proves otherwise, yet society is gaslit into thinking that everything came from nothing. Babies arent alive. You can chose what you want sexually and its all good! Ignoring truth to satisfy their wicked desires.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Last Edit: Jan 12, 2022 9:35:58 GMT -6 by mike

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

mike
Lamplighter

In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in all things charity.

Posts: 3,643

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 12, 2022 9:22:13 GMT -6 stormyknight likes this

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Post by mike on Jan 12, 2022 9:22:13 GMT -6

So now I've laid down a brief backdrop, but what really got me into this line of questioning of how to view this thread topic is from Jeremiah

14:10 Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. 11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. 12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

So the Lord doesnt even listen to their prayer...

Prov 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Prov 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

God refuses their prayer, but should we pray for them? From Jeremiah it seems we should not!

7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

In light of the apostacy that is upon us and ever growing, how do we handle this? The nation(s) are likely at the point of beyond repentance and imminent judgment. Thoughts?

Last Edit: Jan 12, 2022 9:22:26 GMT -6 by mike

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

inaweofhim
Layman

Posts: 88

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 12, 2022 11:06:32 GMT -6 via mobile mike and stormyknight like this

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Post by inaweofhim on Jan 12, 2022 11:06:32 GMT -6

Jan 12, 2022 9:22:13 GMT -6 mike said:

So now I've laid down a brief backdrop, but what really got me into this line of questioning of how to view this thread topic is from Jeremiah

So the Lord doesnt even listen to their prayer...

Prov 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Prov 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

God refuses their prayer, but should we pray for them? From Jeremiah it seems we should not!

7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

In light of the apostacy that is upon us and ever growing, how do we handle this? The nation(s) are likely at the point of beyond repentance and imminent judgment. Thoughts?

I tend to agree wet you Mike, at this point. I keep remembering Rev 22:11 Rev 22:11 - “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

It's one of the last things told to the believer.

stormyknight
Berean

Posts: 663

I'm From: Kansas

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 13, 2022 11:40:16 GMT -6 mike likes this

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Post by stormyknight on Jan 13, 2022 11:40:16 GMT -6

mike,inaweofhim,
same here, I've wondered about this myself. God tells us that we should pray for our leaders and such because they are place there by Him. But if they are so corrupt, how can and why should we pray for them?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

mike
Lamplighter

In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in all things charity.

Posts: 3,643

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 13, 2022 13:01:57 GMT -6

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Post by mike on Jan 13, 2022 13:01:57 GMT -6

I found this in Commentary on BibleHub (Barnes Notes) Matt 5:45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Love your enemies - There are two kinds of love, involving the same general feeling, or springing from the same fountain of good-will to all mankind, but differing so far as to admit of separation in idea. The one is that feeling by which we approve of the conduct of another, commonly called the love of complacency; the other, that by which we wish well to the person of another, though we cannot approve his conduct. This is the love of benevolence, and this love we are to bear toward our enemies. It is impossible to love the conduct of a person who curses and reviles us, who injures our person or property, or who violates all the laws of God; but, though we may hate his conduct, and suffer keenly when we are affected by it, yet we may still wish well to the person; we may pity his madness and folly; we may speak kindly of him and to him; we may return good for evil; we may aid him in the time of trial; we may seek to do him good here and to promote his eternal welfare hereafter, Romans 12:17-20. This seems to be what is meant by loving our enemies; and this is a special law of Christianity, and the highest possible test of piety, and probably the most difficult of all duties to be performed.

Bless them that curse you - The word "bless" here means to "speak well of" or "speak well to:" - not to curse again or to slander, but to speak of those things which we can commend in an enemy; or, if there is nothing that we can commend, to say nothing about him. The word "bless," spoken of God, means to regard with favor or to confer benefits, as when God is said to bless his people. When we speak of our "blessing God," it means to praise Him or give thanks to Him. When we speak of blessing people, it "unites" the two meanings, and signifies to confer favor, to thank, or to speak well of.

This helps but doesnt really address the contradiction at the moment. I am good with not speaking ill of other and trying to speak well or say nothing at all. But stormyknight pray for the wicked leaders when God says not to? Hmmmm...still need to do more digging to find out where me seeing this contradiction is me being wrong (Harmony of the Scriptures)

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

stormyknight
Berean

Posts: 663

I'm From: Kansas

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 13, 2022 14:50:19 GMT -6

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Post by stormyknight on Jan 13, 2022 14:50:19 GMT -6

well, after doing some looking, I don't know that we should pray for wicked leaders per se, but as 1 Tim. 2:1-4 says, "...supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
meaning, it is good for us to pray for them, not that it is good for them for us to pray for them. So if I were to pray for a corrupt leader, God would bless me for praying for the leader, for having good intentions, but as far as the leader, he would turn away from blessing them because they have rejected Him. Does that sound right?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

yardstick
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Posts: 1,527

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 13, 2022 20:19:47 GMT -6 stormyknight likes this

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Post by yardstick on Jan 13, 2022 20:19:47 GMT -6

I believe there are two groups of people in those passages, mike .

And each is treated differently.

Apostates are believers who have 'fallen away'. They are not enemies, but are more like... indifferent. So not praying for their benefit is not necessarily a punishment, the consequences of their actions is. Those consequences are likely to bring them back into the fold.

Enemies, on the other hand, are not believers at all; they are actively perpetrating acts against you, and so Romans 12 applies. An interesting question arises from the Romans 12 passage: What is the purpose of prayer for these people? How is it different than a prayer one might say (despite the proscription) from the Jeremiah passage?

But maybe the question should be... what is the purpose of prayer (in general)?

I have heard that prayer's purpose is to bring us into conformance with the will of God. How would that affect our behavior towards each of the above types of people?

Indifference to the apostate ['s indifference]; and compassion to the enemy? Do these behaviors conform to the instructions given in those passages?

Last Edit: Jan 13, 2022 20:24:52 GMT -6 by yardstick

mike
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In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in all things charity.

Posts: 3,643

To pray for our enemies or not? Jan 15, 2022 6:47:10 GMT -6

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Post by mike on Jan 15, 2022 6:47:10 GMT -6

stormyknight I see your point but when I flip back a page

19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

He's talking to Timothy about remaining strong in his faith, connects it to two who had shipwrecked their faith (due to their blasphemy) then says to pay for everyone...

With that yardstick I can understand that in Jeremiah God is talking about those who willfully believe the lies they are being told by false prophets and priests.

7:5 "For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, 6 if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.
8 "Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. 9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—only to go on doing all these abominations? 11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes?

Is this what Jesus quotes in Luke 19:46

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

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