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Post by mike on Nov 29, 2021 11:43:25 GMT -6
As many are aware that I lean towards the pre-wrath view of end times and the 70th week. While articulating that on this forum has been a challenge, I have also been at somewhat of a loss as to how the state of Israel factors into the view point. Many times "grafting in" is conflated with "replacement" which is not the case.
This video helps me see things in a clearer manner than previously. You may or may not see this the same, which is fine. I do encourage giving it a chance
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Post by Natalie on Nov 29, 2021 16:35:50 GMT -6
I didn't get very far (the title really) and already disagree with him.  The ten tribes were never lost. If they were, who was James and Peter writing to? I will try to listen to it with a more open mind when I have time (probably tomorrow as it won't be as busy as my day today). |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 30, 2021 11:28:01 GMT -6
Ok, I agree with him on some points and don't on others.
As I see it - his view of when the rapture is will influence his interpretation of things. Just as mine will. We try to avoid this by starting with the text first, but we are human and it happens.
Another example of something-- He says that the 144,000 in Rev are Christians. Yet, God told John they were Tribes from Jacob. One of us is spiritualizing the text and one is taking it literally. Which is the better way to inform an interpretation? I always go literally unless there is reason to do otherwise. I see nothing in the text that tells me these are not Messianic Jews from specific tribes (although I guess that would make them Christians, just not Gentile ones)
He also spiritualizes Ephraim, and I do not know where in Scripture it tells us to do that and see Christians as coming from Ephraim. If someone can show me, then I will consider it.
The twelve tribes were not lost, did not marry into Gentile nations and disappear. Although I will say I am sure that some did. But at the time of the NT there were large groups of Jews living in Asia Minor, North Africa, and what we now call Iraq. These are the ones Peter and James wrote to/visited. Maybe Jews no longer know what tribe they belong to, but God knows. And Ezekiel shows that at some point God is going to rejoin the tribes. He knows who they are and where they are.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 2, 2021 8:54:59 GMT -6
I don't remember which verse in Genesis he used, but I am currently reading Genesis and 35:11 says And God said to him, “I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall come from your own body.
So, I was thinking - We know that people from every nation will come to worship Jesus. And Jesus is a descendant of Jacob. So, could that be the company of nations? Those who are descendants of Abraham by faith? If so, there is no need to spiritualize Ephraim, no need to say that tribes are lost and the Church comes from them. Just say the Church comes from the Gentile nations and leave it at that. I do agree with the video that we are grafted in to true Israel - anyone who follows Christ. He is the root that we all connect to. But there is no need to graph us in as Ephraim; no need to say the tribes listed in Rev are not Jews.
It also eliminates the need to defend the "this isn't replacement theology" position.
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Post by mike on Dec 3, 2021 11:59:01 GMT -6
Thanks for giving it a view Natalie - I had some of the same thoughts as you however like you the grafting in vs. replacement is clearer to me now. At least the method as to which he points it out. I do realize this conflicts with a pre-trib stance, but for me it helped to better understand how other views contemplate the points. |
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The ten tribes were never lost. If they were, who was James and Peter writing to?