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Post by mike on Oct 25, 2021 8:11:12 GMT -6
Like the 7th seal + trumpets thread, I had come to some random thoughts on this extremely obscure portion of Revelation. Theres a lot in here, and with it comes several rabbit hole-like questions.  So whats going on here? The angel sounds the trumpet and the star falls from heaven to earth. Is this an angel (the star)? What does this star from heaven, fallen to earth mean or represent? He was given the key to the pit!? So an unnamed star falls to earth and with that a key to the bottomless pit is given? What the hockey sticks is this? He then opens the PIT and smoke comes out, and out of the smoke comes locust like beings, and with them a king over them. EDIT-I am thinking the star that had fallen to earth is satan (Rev 12:7-8) Is this the same angel that opened the PIT or does this angel of the abyss come from it? This angel from the PIT wages war with the 2 witnesses and kills them. How long does this war last? And since this war with the 2 witnesses comes after the first woe/5th trumpet, how far into the time frame does it happen? Most wars don't last a day, perhaps a small localized one could be 6 days, right? But this is not something that would go unnoticed would it? Also notice here that the angel from the PIT is called the beast...Who is this beast/angel from the bottomless pit, called Appllyon/Abaddon (the destroyer - John 10:10)? Now I come to this and have more questions which include timing: Isnt John being shown the fall and destruction of the great whore? Does this not happen after the bowls are poured out? I wanna know what you think. Is this after the bowls or does the language in Rev 17:1 simply mean something else rather than next or then as it reads? |
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Post by Gary on Oct 25, 2021 14:50:19 GMT -6
My view is that the fallen star = Satan. The angel of the abyss, which Revelation equates with the beast (Rev. 17:8), is one of the chained angels from the Genesis 6 account alluded to in Jude, 2 Peter 2, Enoch, etc. So the Antichrist goes from "man mode" at the beginning of the Trib, to "superman mode" near the middle of the Trib once empowered/possessed by the angel of the abyss.
The parallel account is Rev. 12-13: Satan is cast down and gives his power to the beast from the sea.
Revelation 16:17-21 is a really helpful chronological indicator in that it explicitly ties the destruction of Mystery Babylon to the seventh bowl judgment, which would be at the tail end of the Tribulation, pretty much simultaneous with Armageddon (Rev. 16:16).
You may have already seen this, but Jeff and I discuss this exact question in our most recent video:
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Post by mike on Oct 25, 2021 15:47:54 GMT -6
Thanks for input Gary! Im along similar lines, but one thing I purposely left out was the notion of Satan being cast down. I wanted to hear what others thought, and still do! I have heard several theories on Satan possessing the anti-christ at the time of his being tossed from heaven, Rev 12. However I think there is some contradiction with this notion as satan had previously possessed Judas. He is cast out once not twice, right? The rationale that he is cast out and possesses is not exactly a perfect cause and effect. I cannot definitively claim Satan hasnt been removed from heaven yet based on that only. So the star that falls from heaven and is goven the key to the pit could be satan releasing his demonic hoard. I was thinking that too. And if this beast from the pit is the one who goes to perdition (Rev 17:11) he has been on the world scene before. What is this beast? What does it look like? Will it manifest physically so its image is worshipped? |
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Post by Gary on Oct 25, 2021 16:00:20 GMT -6
"I have heard several theories on Satan possessing the anti-christ at the time of his being tossed from heaven, Rev 12."
That's definitely what I used to think. It seems to be a pretty common theory. When you get into Rev. 13-19 there seems to be a clear distinction between Satan, the Antichrist, and false prophet, so the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9) in conjunction with Rev. 17 was a big lightbulb for me. Revelation itself equates the angel of the abyss with the beast from the sea. If Satan, being an angel and not a disembodied demonic spirit, could possess Judas then it makes sense the angel of the abyss could possess the man of lawlessness/man of sin/Antichrist.
Ellicott's commentary on Rev. 9 is pretty interesting and succinct:
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Post by mike on Oct 25, 2021 17:28:42 GMT -6
Gary really have to say that I am blown away by how He moves. I have not yet listened to your pod cast (posted above), nor have I read the Ellicott commentary prior to today. Why is the Lord revealing this? Anyone else I wonder?
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Post by Gary on Oct 26, 2021 9:52:55 GMT -6
Isn't it fascinating? I think it's interesting that some of these guys from the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries already had some of these key details figured out, but now that we have Israel back in the land and the end-of-the-age prophecies converging this generation, we can start to connect the details to see the bigger picture.
So, check this out... and I'm not sure what the significance is just yet, but there seems to be a sevenfold depiction of Christ, and a threefold depiction of the Antichrist in Revelation and the depictions are roughly equidistant:
Christ - as the glorified Son of Man from Daniel in Revelation 1
Christ - as the Lamb as if slain in Revelation 5
Christ - as the mystical Body, the promised seed (Gal. 3:16, 26-29) in Revelation 12
Christ - as the reaping Son of Man in Revelation 14:14-16
Christ - as the warrior, many-crowned King in Revelation 19
Christ - as the righteous judge in Revelation 20
Christ - as the Lamb like the Sun, having restored all things, in Revelation 21-22
- - - - - - -
Antichrist - as the conquering man of sin / man of lawlessness depicted in Daniel 8 and 11, the first judgment unleashed by the Lamb seen in Revelation 6:1-2; the Lamb's first judgment unleashes/reveals the Antichrist who comes with lying signs and wonders (2 Thess. 2:7-12); his revealing (in the pre-trib view post-rapture) is used to help demarcate Daniel's 70th week... God uses the AC to establish the boundaries of the 70th week via the seven-year covenant; note he's given a bow, which is a sort of play on words to the fact he makes a covenant
Antichrist - as the angel and king of the abyss in Revelation 9, released by the fallen star (Satan)
Antichrist - as the beast from the sea in Revelation 13, empowered by the fallen dragon (Satan)
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Post by socalexile on Oct 26, 2021 17:37:59 GMT -6
"Angel" means "messenger". The messengers of Revelation 14:6-10 sound to me like technological ones: radio, satellite, or some kind of broadcasted message. Could also be astronomical.
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Post by socalexile on Oct 26, 2021 17:43:26 GMT -6
Isn't it fascinating? I think it's interesting that some of these guys from the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries already had some of these key details figured out, but now that we have Israel back in the land and the end-of-the-age prophecies converging this generation, we can start to connect the details to see the bigger picture. So, check this out... and I'm not sure what the significance is just yet, but there seems to be a sevenfold depiction of Christ, and a threefold depiction of the Antichrist in Revelation and the depictions are roughly equidistant: Christ - as the glorified Son of Man from Daniel in Revelation 1
Christ - as the Lamb as if slain in Revelation 5
Christ - as the mystical Body, the promised seed (Gal. 3:16, 26-29) in Revelation 12
Christ - as the reaping Son of Man in Revelation 14:14-16
Christ - as the warrior, many-crowned King in Revelation 19
Christ - as the righteous judge in Revelation 20
Christ - as the Lamb like the Sun, having restored all things, in Revelation 21-22- - - - - - - Antichrist - as the conquering man of sin / man of lawlessness depicted in Daniel 8 and 11, the first judgment unleashed by the Lamb seen in Revelation 6:1-2; the Lamb's first judgment unleashes/reveals the Antichrist who comes with lying signs and wonders (2 Thess. 2:7-12); his revealing (in the pre-trib view post-rapture) is used to help demarcate Daniel's 70th week... God uses the AC to establish the boundaries of the 70th week via the seven-year covenant; note he's given a bow, which is a sort of play on words to the fact he makes a covenant Antichrist - as the angel and king of the abyss in Revelation 9, released by the fallen star (Satan)
Antichrist - as the beast from the sea in Revelation 13, empowered by the fallen dragon (Satan)Attachments:
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Post by venge on Oct 29, 2021 7:51:23 GMT -6
mike , Why does the star that falls to earth have to be Satan? Why would he fall late in the game at the 5th Trumpet - more then halfway through the trumpets. Doesnt he give his seat and power to the beast? If so, Satan has been working with the beast way before that time. Also, stars fall from heaven to earth in Rev 6. What makes this star different from those except this one has authority over the masses. As one commentator says, Another says: The fact is that a messenger was reduced from a high position (of power or authority?) to a low position still had some resemblance of power to open and gain control over those he had authority over. He may have been reduced from his lofty previous stance, but even reduced, he did not lose his power base. Does he use that base to further his possible anger because he lost his lofty position? Did his base also lose their position furthering their anger as well as we are told all the stars of heaven fell (Rev 6). I believe this is the AntiChrist that was amongst the 10 but humbles 3. Previously, 10 horns existed but now, he has full authority. What is interesting is verse 5 +6 reminds me of Job. Yes, Job was tempted by Satan. But in a few instance was done by men. He wanted to die, he was tormented, he was pained, tempted, forsook the help of others.. People worship the dragon and the beast (Rev 13:4) but this person who fell has authority. Rev 13:5 says: Just something to think about.
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Post by mike on Oct 29, 2021 8:35:40 GMT -6
hey vengeNo it doesnt have to be satan, but it could be. Just exploring the possibilities. I had been taught that the angel from the abyss was satan, but I started to dig into that more and see that its probably not. The fallen star is given the key to the pit. Again I was previously taught that the star was a typical good angel. My recent thinking was "why would a 'good' angel open the pit?" so I explore more and tossed the question here too for feedback. As always, appreciate yours! |
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Post by boraddict on Oct 29, 2021 20:33:47 GMT -6
Okay, please consider Rev. 20:1-3 in that the dragon is bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years and then afterwards loosed for a little season. From this it is clear that the dragon once bound can not loose himself.
It follows that in Rev. 9:1-2 the dragon who has fallen to the earth does not have the key to the bottomless pit. Because, if he did then he could loose himself in Verses 20:1-3. So please consider the verse in it's chiasmus form as follows:
"And the fifth angel blew his trumpet,
and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth,
and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit."
As you can see there are two individuals mentioned in the verse. And, according to Rev. 20:1 the angel has the key. So, when did he get the key? Rev. 9:1 shows that he got the key after he blew the fifth trumpet.
So when did the star that is the dragon fall from heaven to the earth as stated in Verse 9:1? It appears that he was cast to the earth along with the stars that his tail that is a false head that is a false godship caused others to be cast to the earth (Rev. 12:4). In other words, the dragon caused others to be cast to the earth when he was cast to the earth. Because, he represented himself as their god, the false head, the tail.
Also, it appears from the verse that the star had fallen prior to the blowing of the fifth trumpet. So, the star fell and caused his followers to fall and when the 5th trumpet was blown then the angel opened the bottomless pit to allow these demons to do a work. It seems that we are in the bottomless pit or near it and the opening of the pit by the angel allows the stars that are the followers of the dragon to do a specific work.
Continuing:
The work of the followers of the dragon is to attack and this is shown in Rev. 12:4, 13, 9:4, 18, etc.
If the BofR is considered on a macro level where each trumpet represents 1,000 years then John that is the writer of the book is the 5th angel because he received the keys over death and hell (Rev. 1:18) while he was living upon the earth 2,000 years ago. This death and hell are the two bad guys that are the leaders of the dragon's band of demons (Rev. 6:8). Thus, John would be the angel in Rev. 9:1 that released the dragon's followers after he received the keys (Rev. 1:18). In this interpretation the first four trumpets in Chapter 8 are the first four 1,000 year periods of time and we are currently in the sixth trumpet. Here it is easy to see that the false prophet is more of a line of false prophets under the banner of "a" false prophet (Pope) that follows death, the representative leader that destroys mankind. But in fact there are many who destroy and this is easy to see like Hitler, Stalin, and many others here in the 6th one thousand year period of time; the 6th trumpet. One final note in this interpretation is that John blowing the trumpet (Ch. 9) and then being given the little book in Chapter 10 seems to indicate that the fifth trumpet is the Book of Revelation.
If the BofR is considered on a micro level where each trumpet represents an action of God during the 7 years of tribulation then the angel of the 5th trumpet can still be John but he would be participating during the tribulation years while having the keys for the past 2,000 years but not using them during that time. I mention this because Rev. 1:18 clearly states that he was given the keys over death and hell. And, they being devils that follow the dragon then John having the authority via those keys would participate in some capacity. In this scenario then the trumpets follow the seals during the 7 years.
It is not unreasonable that an angel in the Book of Revelation is a man; because, John uses a multitude of metaphors for example: seven heads that are seven mountains and seven kings (Rev. 17:9-10) wherein the mountains are kingdoms/nations, and the heads are the government of those kingdoms/nations, and each having a man as the leader/king. And, please consider that the Savior is referenced as it were of a trumpet (Rev. 1:10, 4:1) speaking to John. Which by the way indicates that the trumpets are actions of God in the BofR.
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