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Post by jcooper07 on Sept 25, 2021 8:41:16 GMT -6
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (2 Corinthians 13:1b)
In Revelation 12:5 we are told that "she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." The site unsealed has done a thorough job of proving that this is a picture of the rapture. The church is the child, and this verse is talking about the moment when we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and then taken to the throne of God.
Here is a question: why are we "caught up" in the twinkling of an eye? According to the previous verse, it is because the church is danger:
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (Revelation 12:4)
Who is the dragon? Verse 9 says it is the devil. In other words, before the rapture happens the devil will come to this world with his demonic army in a highly visible way, for the express purpose of attacking the church the moment it is "born" (which I believe is a reference to the resurrection).
I have heard it said many times that the devil will come to this world after the rapture and pretend to be an alien, and that is the "great deception". I think the devil will actually come before the rapture instead. When we see him and his demons appear in this world (probably posing as aliens), we will know that the rapture is at hand. That is the third sign.
How will the devil know that the rapture is at hand? Because of Revelation 12:2:
"And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."
Who is the woman? She is the nation of Israel. Who is the child? The church. The second sign is not the unborn child being in pain; it is the woman being in pain. Once the devil sees Israel in great pain, he will appear because he knows that the rapture is at hand. That is the second sign.
What is the first sign? It is the sign of the woman, which the site unsealed has talked about at length over the years. Israel has been in serious jeopardy a few times during the past 70 years, but on those occasions the first sign had not yet come to pass (for it was not fulfilled until 9/23/17).
At some point in the future the nation of Israel will find themselves in unbearable pain (perhaps connected to Isaiah 17). The devil and his demonic army will then enter into this world in a visible way, probably posing as aliens. At that point the rapture will be at hand.
It is hard to say when these things will happen, for we have not been given a day or an hour. But we have been given signs to watch for, and we have been told repeatedly to watch - not for generic signs, but for three very specific things that follow each other in a specific sequence.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 25, 2021 18:17:53 GMT -6
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (2 Corinthians 13:1b) In Revelation 12:5 we are told that "she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." The site unsealed has done a thorough job of proving that this is a picture of the rapture. The church is the child, and this verse is talking about the moment when we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and then taken to the throne of God. Here is a question: why are we "caught up" in the twinkling of an eye? According to the previous verse, it is because the church is danger: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (Revelation 12:4) Who is the dragon? Verse 9 says it is the devil. In other words, before the rapture happens the devil will come to this world with his demonic army in a highly visible way, for the express purpose of attacking the church the moment it is "born" (which I believe is a reference to the resurrection). I have heard it said many times that the devil will come to this world after the rapture and pretend to be an alien, and that is the "great deception". I think the devil will actually come before the rapture instead. When we see him and his demons appear in this world (probably posing as aliens), we will know that the rapture is at hand. That is the third sign. How will the devil know that the rapture is at hand? Because of Revelation 12:2: "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." Who is the woman? She is the nation of Israel. Who is the child? The church. The second sign is not the unborn child being in pain; it is the woman being in pain. Once the devil sees Israel in great pain, he will appear because he knows that the rapture is at hand. That is the second sign. What is the first sign? It is the sign of the woman, which the site unsealed has talked about at length over the years. Israel has been in serious jeopardy a few times during the past 70 years, but on those occasions the first sign had not yet come to pass (for it was not fulfilled until 9/23/17). At some point in the future the nation of Israel will find themselves in unbearable pain (perhaps connected to Isaiah 17). The devil and his demonic army will then enter into this world in a visible way, probably posing as aliens. At that point the rapture will be at hand. It is hard to say when these things will happen, for we have not been given a day or an hour. But we have been given signs to watch for, and we have been told repeatedly to watch - not for generic signs, but for three very specific things that follow each other in a specific sequence. jcooper07 you have several conclusions that need some tweaking perhaps. However, you get an "A+" for all your hard work. And hard work it is to research and try to understand scripture and especially the Book of Revelation. You said: "In Revelation 12:5 .... The church is the child, and this verse is talking about the moment when we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and then taken to the throne of God." My question: If the church is the child then is Jesus going to have a child-bride? Secondly, Rev. 12:6 seems to indicate that someone, perhaps the church, is taken to a wilderness. So while these people, of Verse 12:6 are taken, they do not appear to be taken to the throne of God. However, back to the previous verse (12:5), it continues from Rev. 12:4 wherein the woman is pregnant, and, she gives birth to a child. So let's say that the Savior's bride is a woman and she gives birth to a child. This would mean that the church gives birth to a child. Do you remember from Isa. 1:9 that a "daughter of Zion" exists following the destruction of the people? Had this daughter not been spared then the people would have been totally destroyed. However, in this case (v. 12:5) it is a man-child and not the daughter of Zion that is referenced. Nevertheless, these two metaphors hold the same point of reference wherein someone is saved by God. That is, metaphorically, the man-child and the daughter of Zion are both saved from physical destruction. And, to top it off, the man-child it taken to God whereas the virgin daughter is simply saved from destruction. Yet, we see that the wilderness gathering in Verse 12:6 that follows the event of the man-child going to heaven. So, it seems to me that three events are unfolding in Verses 12:4-6 the first of which is the woman is attacked (Rev. 13:7), then the man-child that metaphorically represents a remnant of saints (IMO) is taken to God, and lastly some group of saints is taken to the wilderness. I propose that the group taken to God is the 144,000 of Rev. 7:4-8 as noted in Rev. 14:1. Then, these return to gather saints here upon the earth in the wilderness. This is pure conjecture upon my part to explain these three verses (12:4-6). |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Oct 3, 2021 10:56:58 GMT -6
It's actually not "MAN CHILD" as the KJV has it, a more appropriate translation is "MALE-CHILD" no child can be a man, which is an oxymoronic term. Meaning it doesn't jibe (clarified that so no one thinks I am calling g anyone a moron I have actually ad people who don't understand this common term).
Jesus is the male child that Satan sought to kill, we can see this via King Herod's decree to kill all babies under 2 years old in a certain area where the messianic figure was prophesied to be born. The Woman is Israel, as shown in Gen. 37:9, there is no such thing as a Rapture in these verses. The Woman is Israel or the 144,000 male virgins who are not all-male or virgin anymore than the 10 Virgin Brides are all Female virgins because the 10 virgins of course represent The Church or ALL Christendom. People just can't grasp God's lingo it seems.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 3, 2021 22:13:53 GMT -6
It's actually not "MAN CHILD" as the KJV has it, a more appropriate translation is "MALE-CHILD" no child can be a man, which is an oxymoronic term. Meaning it doesn't jibe (clarified that so no one thinks I am calling g anyone a moron I have actually ad people who don't understand this common term). Jesus is the male child that Satan sought to kill, we can see this via King Herod's decree to kill all babies under 2 years old in a certain area where the messianic figure was prophesied to be born. The Woman is Israel, as shown in Gen. 37:9, there is no such thing as a Rapture in these verses. The Woman is Israel or the 144,000 male virgins who are not all-male or virgin anymore than the 10 Virgin Brides are all Female virgins because the 10 virgins of course represent The Church or ALL Christendom. People just can't grasp God's lingo it seems. , you are so good and fun to visit with. I like the point that you made about the man-child being a male child (Rev. 12:4-5). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 mentions the woman with child and that they shall not escape. I was making the link to the woman with a male child (vv. 12:4-5) so that the dragon is making war upon the saints (Rev. 13:6-7) and by extension Israel as you have stated. Your point that Jesus is the male child in the verse is a point well taken. No doubt that you are correct in your interpretation. However, there are other things going on in this chapter that distorts a timeline like the war in heaven verses at Rev. 12:7-12 and the two wilderness verses at Rev. 12:6, 14. So here is a rough outline of the chapter: Rev. 12:1-5, The woman and the dragon Rev. 12:6, the wilderness Rev. 12:7-13, the war in heaven
Rev. 12:14, the wilderness
Rev. 12:15-17, the woman and the dragon Please notice the woman and the dragon sections that paint a picture of before and after. Thus, the dragon dominates the chapter in some regard; because, even though the dragon is defeated on the war verses he continues afterwards. I have often thought that this may represent the 1st and 2nd beasts. Also, the saints in the latter verses are pursued after the child goes to heaven (v. 12:5) as stated in Verses 12:13-17. There is a lot going on in Chapter 12 and it is beyond my understanding. |
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Post by Gary on Oct 4, 2021 8:17:04 GMT -6
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (2 Corinthians 13:1b) In Revelation 12:5 we are told that "she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." The site unsealed has done a thorough job of proving that this is a picture of the rapture. The church is the child, and this verse is talking about the moment when we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and then taken to the throne of God. Here is a question: why are we "caught up" in the twinkling of an eye? According to the previous verse, it is because the church is danger: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." (Revelation 12:4) Who is the dragon? Verse 9 says it is the devil. In other words, before the rapture happens the devil will come to this world with his demonic army in a highly visible way, for the express purpose of attacking the church the moment it is "born" (which I believe is a reference to the resurrection). I have heard it said many times that the devil will come to this world after the rapture and pretend to be an alien, and that is the "great deception". I think the devil will actually come before the rapture instead. When we see him and his demons appear in this world (probably posing as aliens), we will know that the rapture is at hand. That is the third sign. How will the devil know that the rapture is at hand? Because of Revelation 12:2: "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." Who is the woman? She is the nation of Israel. Who is the child? The church. The second sign is not the unborn child being in pain; it is the woman being in pain. Once the devil sees Israel in great pain, he will appear because he knows that the rapture is at hand. That is the second sign. What is the first sign? It is the sign of the woman, which the site unsealed has talked about at length over the years. Israel has been in serious jeopardy a few times during the past 70 years, but on those occasions the first sign had not yet come to pass (for it was not fulfilled until 9/23/17). At some point in the future the nation of Israel will find themselves in unbearable pain (perhaps connected to Isaiah 17). The devil and his demonic army will then enter into this world in a visible way, probably posing as aliens. At that point the rapture will be at hand. It is hard to say when these things will happen, for we have not been given a day or an hour. But we have been given signs to watch for, and we have been told repeatedly to watch - not for generic signs, but for three very specific things that follow each other in a specific sequence. Great thoughts jcooper07. Thank you for sharing. Really interesting thought about Israel being in labor. I would suggest Isaiah 66:7-9, which forms the basis for Rev. 12, might give us an additional clue: the woman, Israel, gives birth to a corporate male child (the Church) before her labor hits. In response to some of the others' points: the Bible doesn't split hairs. The bride of Christ, the male child, etc, are analogies and metaphors. Yes, the Church is the bride of Christ. Yes, the Church is also the corporate male child. Both are emphatic truths in Scripture. There has even been some unanimity on this teaching in Protestant history among those scholars who have studied the topic. I think we can get off track if we latch onto one idea at the expense of others when no real contradiction exists in Scripture. The Church is the bride. The Church is also one body, one corporate "man"/heir/offspring/seed with Christ as the head. The Church is also a spiritual temple, a flock of sheep (Jn. 10:16), etc. |
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Post by boraddict on Oct 4, 2021 19:04:49 GMT -6
Gary, I love the reference to Isaiah that you made. 66:7, "Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she delivered a son." Verse 7 nails it to the wall that before the woman that is the church was in pain she delivered a son and this is the Savior. 66:8, Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children. Verse 8 states that as soon as Zion was feeling pain then her children were brought forth and this is right around the corner. 66:9, Shall I bring to the point of birth and not cause to bring forth?” says the Lord; “shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?” says your God. Verse 9 states that we should not doubt what the Lord says he will do. Secondly, these three verses appear to be a chiasmus so the "son" in verse 8 seems to correspond to "I" in Verse 9. And, the central theme is "born in a day" and "a nation ... brought forth in one moment" and "as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children." These verses show that the event described is at the beginning of the tribulation era. There is also an event at the end of the tribulation era. This first event seems to apply to those who are ready; those who are watching and so forth. Like, watch and be ready (Rev. 16:15).
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Oct 11, 2021 2:36:53 GMT -6
It's actually not "MAN CHILD" as the KJV has it, a more appropriate translation is "MALE-CHILD" no child can be a man, which is an oxymoronic term. Meaning it doesn't jibe (clarified that so no one thinks I am calling g anyone a moron I have actually ad people who don't understand this common term). Jesus is the male child that Satan sought to kill, we can see this via King Herod's decree to kill all babies under 2 years old in a certain area where the messianic figure was prophesied to be born. The Woman is Israel, as shown in Gen. 37:9, there is no such thing as a Rapture in these verses. The Woman is Israel or the 144,000 male virgins who are not all-male or virgin anymore than the 10 Virgin Brides are all Female virgins because the 10 virgins of course represent The Church or ALL Christendom. People just can't grasp God's lingo it seems. , you are so good and fun to visit with. I like the point that you made about the man-child being a male child (Rev. 12:4-5). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 mentions the woman with child and that they shall not escape. I was making the link to the woman with a male child (vv. 12:4-5) so that the dragon is making war upon the saints (Rev. 13:6-7) and by extension Israel as you have stated. Your point that Jesus is the male child in the verse is a point well taken. No doubt that you are correct in your interpretation. However, there are other things going on in this chapter that distorts a timeline like the war in heaven verses at Rev. 12:7-12 and the two wilderness verses at Rev. 12:6, 14. So here is a rough outline of the chapter: Rev. 12:1-5, The woman and the dragon Rev. 12:6, the wilderness Rev. 12:7-13, the war in heaven
Rev. 12:14, the wilderness
Rev. 12:15-17, the woman and the dragon Please notice the woman and the dragon sections that paint a picture of before and after. Thus, the dragon dominates the chapter in some regard; because, even though the dragon is defeated on the war verses he continues afterwards. I have often thought that this may represent the 1st and 2nd beasts. Also, the saints in the latter verses are pursued after the child goes to heaven (v. 12:5) as stated in Verses 12:13-17. There is a lot going on in Chapter 12 and it is beyond my understanding. Borradict, this is a Vision that is about the End Times, but we get a FLASHBACK to set up what's going on. The flashback is in verses 1-5. Via a code seen in Gen. 37:9 we understand the Woman is Israel, and we understand Israel birthed Jesus, and then Satan via Herod tried to have baby Jesus killed, but to no avail, and Jesus then grew up to become the Sinless Sacrifice that defeated he Serpent. So, why is the Vison/Wonder in Heaven? Because this chapter is about Satan getting kicked out of Heaven once and for all, and being cast down to earth. Thus the Story starts via the end-times in Rev. 12:6, Satan chases the Woman into the Wilderness where God protects her. So, in verses 1-5 we get THE PLAYERS, and THE CODES for who everyone is, then in the rest of the chapter we get the End-Time Prophecy. Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Verses 6 through 17 repeats itself with the exact same info, John(God who gave it unto him) wanted the readers to understand that Daniels Time, times and half [time] was 1260 days, so he said it BOTH WAYS, thus no one can not understand that the 1260 days = Daniel chapters 12s Time, Times and Half[time]. The only thing added is we see the Remnant Church on earth in verse 17, it can't be Remnant Jews, it can only be the Remnant Church. In reality, in full, this is a basically simple a chapter, made more complex by the CODES. The simple version goes like this: Satan is kicked out of Heaven with all his demons. He comes down to earth desperate knowing his time is short so he once again tries to kill all the Jews so God's Prophetic uttering can not come true, but sadly he has no hope. When he can't get at the Jews who repent, he turns and goes after the Remnant Church on this earth who repent after the Rapture. |
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Post by boraddict on Oct 11, 2021 11:30:03 GMT -6
rondonmonson , I liked your point in the previous posting that Jesus came from Israel, and as such then the woman in Rev. 12:1-5 is Israel. However, that tends to be a large (macro) interpretation of who the woman is; because, we can say that at the time that Jesus was upon the earth He was from Israel, but more specifically he was from Judah, and more than that he was from the church since he is the head of the church. So, technically speaking, the woman is perhaps Israel in Chapter 12, or Judah, or the church. Since the Dragon is represented in the chapter as having existed prior to Jesus' mortality, then it may be the case that the woman is also represented in the chapter as having existed before Jesus' mortality. If that is the case, then the reference to the war at Rev. 12:7-10 as being a pre-mortal war would support that the dragon as referenced in the chapter at Rev. 12:3-4 is pre-mortal, and this supports that the woman in the chapter is also pre-mortal. If that is true then the adversarial relationship between the woman and the dragon (vv. 1-5) contrasted with the war between Michael and the dragon (vv. 7-10) suggests that the woman and Michel are on the same side with both of them against the dragon in a pre-mortal relationship. At any rate, the child is clearly the Savior having gone to the Father after his mortality (Rev. 12:5). Thus, we know that Verse 12:5 has a time reference of 2,000 years ago. We also know that the stars from heaven reference at Rev. 12:3-4 as well as the war in heaven reference at Rev. 12:7-10 are both pre-mortal. So we have two distinct time references in the chapter: pre-mortal and 2,000 years ago. Lastly, we have the reference that the Dragon has come down to us here in the last days (Rev. 12:12) and this is the third time reference in the chapter. So, these three time references appear to reflect in the chapter as follows: mortal, Rev. 12:1-6 and this would be 2,000 years ago pre-mortal, Rev. 12:7-10 and included is the Rev. 12:3-4 pre-mortal reference mortal, Rev. 12:11-17 and this would be latter days If this is correct then we can see that the early church did have some type of rapture event as stated in Rev. 12:6.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Oct 17, 2021 14:35:11 GMT -6
rondonmonson , I liked your point in the previous posting that Jesus came from Israel, and as such then the woman in Rev. 12:1-5 is Israel. However, that tends to be a large (macro) interpretation of who the woman is; because, we can say that at the time that Jesus was upon the earth He was from Israel, but more specifically he was from Judah, and more than that he was from the church since he is the head of the church. So, technically speaking, the woman is perhaps Israel in Chapter 12, or Judah, or the church. Since the Dragon is represented in the chapter as having existed prior to Jesus' mortality, then it may be the case that the woman is also represented in the chapter as having existed before Jesus' mortality. If that is the case, then the reference to the war at Rev. 12:7-10 as being a pre-mortal war would support that the dragon as referenced in the chapter at Rev. 12:3-4 is pre-mortal, and this supports that the woman in the chapter is also pre-mortal. If that is true then the adversarial relationship between the woman and the dragon (vv. 1-5) contrasted with the war between Michael and the dragon (vv. 7-10) suggests that the woman and Michel are on the same side with both of them against the dragon in a pre-mortal relationship. At any rate, the child is clearly the Savior having gone to the Father after his mortality (Rev. 12:5). Thus, we know that Verse 12:5 has a time reference of 2,000 years ago. We also know that the stars from heaven reference at Rev. 12:3-4 as well as the war in heaven reference at Rev. 12:7-10 are both pre-mortal. So we have two distinct time references in the chapter: pre-mortal and 2,000 years ago. Lastly, we have the reference that the Dragon has come down to us here in the last days (Rev. 12:12) and this is the third time reference in the chapter. So, these three time references appear to reflect in the chapter as follows: mortal, Rev. 12:1-6 and this would be 2,000 years ago pre-mortal, Rev. 12:7-10 and included is the Rev. 12:3-4 pre-mortal reference mortal, Rev. 12:11-17 and this would be latter days If this is correct then we can see that the early church did have some type of rapture event as stated in Rev. 12:6. You have to use the Old Testament to understand these CODES. I told you the key was Gen. 37:9 for a reason. Gen. 37:9 And he(Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. The Sun is his father Jacob, the Moon is his mother Rachel, and the 11 brothers, thus that means the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars seen in Rev. 12 = Israel. We also see that this means Israel in Rev. 12 and further in Gal. 3 by following the clues all the way to the end. Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman (Israel), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed(Jesus is HER SEED see Gal. 3), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I will prove below the Remnant can can only be the Church, not the Jews, thus the Remnant of HER SEED = Jesus' Church.
Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. So THE REMNANT of Her (Israel's) SEED (Jesus) is the Church, or Remnant Church, thus the Jews are not the Remnant here and can never be the Remnant. The 1/3 (Woman) whom Jesus is chasing, he can not get at, thus he TURNS to go after the Remnant of Her (Israel's) SEED (Jesus). Only the Jews who repent are protected by God during the 70th week tribulation, thus thee are the 1/3 (Zechariah 13:8-9) who repent. The 2/3 Jews who refuse to repent do not have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, which is a requirement of verse 17, so that Remnant can't be the 2/3 in Zechariah 13:8-9 who refuse to repent, God says they will be CUT-OFF (perish/die). The Woman can ONLY be Israel, the Remnant Church refers to the 5 Virgins left behind. |
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