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Post by uscgvet on Aug 13, 2021 11:03:33 GMT -6
Hey Gary question for you on this statement: I dont quite read Gen 7 the same way. Can you clarify how you arrive at this conclusion in light of: Are we just reading this different in light of our understanding? I see that the Lord instructed Noah to get the animals on the ark with 7 days to complete the task. I read this like it took 7 days for all the animals to be placed in the ark as it would be a logistical nightmare to try to accomplish it in one day. The Lord sent the animals, but its doubtful they knew exactly where they needed to go once in the ark. However I dont see that Noah was inside with the door shut for 7 days before the flood started. I feel the two different timings of Noah and his entire household entering the ark are a clue to Pre-Trib (Entire Family rescue) and Pre-Wrath (Remnant family rescue). On one hand, they were ordered aboard the ark (3 heavens with a throne room) in 7's and pairs of "Gentiles" (Acts 10) 7 days BEFORE the rains started. On the other hand, the same day the rains began (just as with Lot and his remnant family, on the same day) the door was shut by God Himself and God's wrath began. |
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Post by venge on Aug 13, 2021 14:18:12 GMT -6
They were not ordered to board the ark 7 days before. They had 7 days to finish the task. They entered the ark the same day the rains/flood came just as Lot was saved the same day the hail and brimstone came. They are both paralleled.
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 13, 2021 15:41:21 GMT -6
Yea, I'll have to disagree.
The KJV and ISV are quite clear.
God gave the order to board the ark.
Then in 7 days the rains will come.
KJV Genesis 7
ISV Genesis 7
In both cases... "Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him".
The order to board the ship came before the 7 days.
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Post by Gary on Aug 13, 2021 16:12:27 GMT -6
Hey Gary question for you on this statement: I dont quite read Gen 7 the same way. Can you clarify how you arrive at this conclusion in light of: Are we just reading this different in light of our understanding? I see that the Lord instructed Noah to get the animals on the ark with 7 days to complete the task. I read this like it took 7 days for all the animals to be placed in the ark as it would be a logistical nightmare to try to accomplish it in one day. The Lord sent the animals, but its doubtful they knew exactly where they needed to go once in the ark. However I dont see that Noah was inside with the door shut for 7 days before the flood started. It's definitely a possible interpretation and I know some make the argument that v. 13 indicates Noah and his family entered the Ark on the day the Flood came. God's actual command to enter the Ark w/ the animals was explicitly given seven days prior to the Flood (vv. 1-4) and there's no indication in the passage that the Ark was incomplete. I believe vv. 7-10 help clarify a bit: The understanding that Noah entered seven days prior (based on vv. 4 and 10) is held and/or defended by many and commentaries seem to be split. Some examples: Answers in GenesisVerse by Verse Ministry
Part of the reconciliation is diving deeper into the Hebrew. In v. 7 we see Noah actively going into the Ark (imperfective aspect of בּוֹא), but the Flood was still seven days out (v. 10). In v. 13 the Hebrew aspect of entered (בּוֹא) is perfective, thus had entered. In other words, whatever was initiated seven days prior had already been completed by the seventh day. In summary, the three views I'm aware of are 1. Noah and fam entered seven days prior, 2. Noah and fam were enterING for seven days (this is defended by several Hebrew scholars), and 3. Noah and fam didn't enter until the seventh day. The Hebrew construction of both vv. 9 and 15 indicates Noah had already been in the Ark when the animals entered and then in v. 16 we see God sealing them all in the Ark once the animals were aboard. I think any of the three views is defensible, but am persuaded by #1 or #2. If Noah is a type of Israel rather than the Church, it's interesting that Enoch was raptured (Gen. 5:24) before the seven day warning (Gen. 7:1-4). This topic was part of my inspiration for the recent article where I listed about 20 examples of seven-year and seven-day types and shadows found throughout Scripture. Several of them even have a pre-trib component to them. |
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Post by venge on Aug 14, 2021 7:05:57 GMT -6
Yea, I'll have to disagree. The KJV and ISV are quite clear. God gave the order to board the ark. Then in 7 days the rains will come. KJV Genesis 7 ISV Genesis 7 In both cases... "Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him". The order to board the ship came before the 7 days. Are you telling me Luke 17:27 means that for 7 days, everyone on the world stopped and did nothing till the flood came? Because according to Luke, the world continued as it was till the day the flood came and that day is when Noah entered. Otherwise, you are saying the world continued as it was till Noah entered the ark, then for 7 days till the flood came, they just sat around and did nothing. Then the flood came. Because Luke 17 matches what is said in Genesis 7, Noah enters the ark when the flood waters were upon the earth. And the next set of verses backs this up: Twice Genesis tells us that Noah was 600 years old when the rains came and he entered the ark on the VERY same day. Luke backs it up and there is no other way to interpret Luke as the sinners of the world stopping marriage, eating, drinking, building for 7 days before the flood. Christ parallels this with Lot because both accounts happen to their individual persons on the same day destruction comes. One commentator said: Noah was commanded that he had 7 days to finish God's task before the rain came. Because he had already spent much time building the ark (Gen 6), he pushed through and was counted faithful (Gen 7:1). Some believe that the 7 days represents the worlds ability to repent before destruction. Regardless, Noah enters with his family in the 600 year of his life in the rains/flood came. That word used "etsem" is described as "Very same day" or as the KJV renders it, selfsame day. The same day destruction comes, he enters. The same day fire and brimstone rained down, Lot entered Zoar, the same day destruction came on Jericho, Rahab and her family were saved, the same day the Jews were to be destroyed by Xerxes decree, they were saved, the same day the Jews walked through dry land, the flood came and destroyed the Egyptian army. Otherwise, please explain how the wicked in darkness would see the thief coming and stop doing the things we are told in Luke 17 that they were doing for 7 days. |
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Post by mike on Aug 14, 2021 7:48:40 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply Gary. I do think this is why we dont base doctrines on type/shadows. The plain reading of the text is about the flood. Jesus uses it to illustrate how the last days will be but because its an illustration we tend to read into things from our perspectives. To wrap this back to the topic of the thread...we are very likely living in the days before the tribulation begins. Regardless of the view of when the rapture occurs, we know that wickedness is increasing in leaps and bounds, persecution has arrived in several parts of the world and is coming to ALL those who name the Name of Jesus. United in Him until He calls us forever! |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Aug 14, 2021 12:04:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply Gary . I do think this is why we dont base doctrines on type/shadows. The plain reading of the text is about the flood. Jesus uses it to illustrate how the last days will be but because its an illustration we tend to read into things from our perspectives. To wrap this back to the topic of the thread...we are very likely living in the days before the tribulation begins. Regardless of the view of when the rapture occurs, we know that wickedness is increasing in leaps and bounds, persecution has arrived in several parts of the world and is coming to ALL those who name the Name of Jesus. United in Him until He calls us forever! Amen brother, not only has wickedness increased, I think we are seeing now what the prophecy meant by saying he will seek to change times and laws. I don't think we really get that in full, we see it as lie unto a clock/date etc. and actual laws, even though we are under grace. I think we have seen this before under Antiochus. I think the ties and laws, from my studies is referring to cultures and traditions. Antiochus and Jason who I think was the False Prophet type, agreed to allow Antiochus to sacrifice a pig in God's holy temple unto Zeus, then they tried to Hellenize the Jews, leading to the Maccabean Revolt. The Greeks were big into Homosexuality and all manner of perversions. the word Gymnasiums comes from a Greek idea where they all played sports in the buff etc. So, they wanted to change the Jewish peoples Cultures and Traditions. Sure, its God's LAW that only a man and woman can marry, and that only God can be worshiped as God, so those Cultural Traditions are the Laws they are trying to change. I see that happening today, except its worldwide, the push for homosexual marriage, transsexual acceptance, etc. is Demonic in nature, Satan wants to change the over 5000 year tradition of one man and one woman = a marriage, he wants to manipulate the masses into not being able to worship God in Church etc. etc. Satan is pushing to change the culture and traditions of Judeo Christian concepts. I too see us at the very end. Notice the affects they are having on our youth? They look like half men and half women, they look demon possessed, the brainwashing is working. Come Lord Jesus come, I think we are all ready, BUT....we may have a little work left to do, lets win souls while we can. Amen. |
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 14, 2021 20:13:44 GMT -6
Yea, I'll have to disagree. The KJV and ISV are quite clear. God gave the order to board the ark. Then in 7 days the rains will come. KJV Genesis 7 ISV Genesis 7 In both cases... "Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him". The order to board the ship came before the 7 days. Are you telling me Luke 17:27 means that for 7 days, everyone on the world stopped and did nothing till the flood came? Because according to Luke, the world continued as it was till the day the flood came and that day is when Noah entered. Otherwise, you are saying the world continued as it was till Noah entered the ark, then for 7 days till the flood came, they just sat around and did nothing. Then the flood came. Because Luke 17 matches what is said in Genesis 7, Noah enters the ark when the flood waters were upon the earth. And the next set of verses backs this up: Twice Genesis tells us that Noah was 600 years old when the rains came and he entered the ark on the VERY same day. Luke backs it up and there is no other way to interpret Luke as the sinners of the world stopping marriage, eating, drinking, building for 7 days before the flood. Christ parallels this with Lot because both accounts happen to their individual persons on the same day destruction comes. One commentator said: Noah was commanded that he had 7 days to finish God's task before the rain came. Because he had already spent much time building the ark (Gen 6), he pushed through and was counted faithful (Gen 7:1). Some believe that the 7 days represents the worlds ability to repent before destruction. Regardless, Noah enters with his family in the 600 year of his life in the rains/flood came. That word used "etsem" is described as "Very same day" or as the KJV renders it, selfsame day. The same day destruction comes, he enters. The same day fire and brimstone rained down, Lot entered Zoar, the same day destruction came on Jericho, Rahab and her family were saved, the same day the Jews were to be destroyed by Xerxes decree, they were saved, the same day the Jews walked through dry land, the flood came and destroyed the Egyptian army. Otherwise, please explain how the wicked in darkness would see the thief coming and stop doing the things we are told in Luke 17 that they were doing for 7 days. There is nothing about Noah needing to "finish God's task" 7 days before the rain came. Nothing about building or finishing or anything like it is in Genesis 7. I have no idea where you get this from. We know that Genesis 6 is where the command was to build the ark, but nothing about finishing a task. There was only a command to build the ark in Genesis 6 and a command to board it in Genesis 7. All that was written in Genesis 7 was God, out of the blue, in the 600th year of Noah just all of a sudden ordered Noah to board the ark 7 days before the wrath begins. The 7 days was such an important detail that it was written about twice: 1) Genesis 7:4 2) Genesis 7:10 As to your comment about the world pausing for 7 days...? I have no idea what you're talking about. You lost me on that one. There are 2 variations to the actual boarding of the ark written in Genesis 7. I think I just figured out why they differ: Boarding variations: Variation 1 is Genesis 7:1-12 -- the boarding started 7 days before the rain began Variation 2 is Genesis 7:13-16 --the boarding was on "the same self day", but verse 13 doesn't actually specify as to what else occurred other than the actual boarding... that is... until you get to verse 16; God shut the door to the ark on "the same self day" as when Noah and everybody else boarded it. Read the Hebrew of Genesis 7:13-16. "the same self day" is the predicate to God shutting the door. That would be a miracle. biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/7.htmThis means that the whole boarding process occurred in 1 single day... which was 7 days before the God's wrath began. WOW! Thank you venge This is Amazing! Now I'm even more convinced of Noah being a type for the Pre-Trib rapture!!! This has been a good day. |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 14, 2021 20:49:21 GMT -6
Lately I have been thinking about how the time of Noah applies to our time. The Ark was lifted upon the water and likewise the _________ is lifted upon the fires of destruction. Then, afterwards, the Ark was settled back upon the earth and likewise the __________ is settled back upon the earth. The only thing that comes down to the earth is the city of New Jerusalem. So, what is taken up but the city of New Jerusalem.
So while the common belief is that we all are taken up into the air at the coming of the Savior, we do not descend to the earth but the city of New Jerusalem does. That is, while the city is taken off the earth at some point, or has already been taken off the earth, the people go to that city and those in mortality come back to the earth in that city.
Just at thought.
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Post by venge on Aug 15, 2021 9:05:48 GMT -6
Are you telling me Luke 17:27 means that for 7 days, everyone on the world stopped and did nothing till the flood came? Because according to Luke, the world continued as it was till the day the flood came and that day is when Noah entered. Otherwise, you are saying the world continued as it was till Noah entered the ark, then for 7 days till the flood came, they just sat around and did nothing. Then the flood came. Because Luke 17 matches what is said in Genesis 7, Noah enters the ark when the flood waters were upon the earth. And the next set of verses backs this up: Twice Genesis tells us that Noah was 600 years old when the rains came and he entered the ark on the VERY same day. Luke backs it up and there is no other way to interpret Luke as the sinners of the world stopping marriage, eating, drinking, building for 7 days before the flood. Christ parallels this with Lot because both accounts happen to their individual persons on the same day destruction comes. One commentator said: Noah was commanded that he had 7 days to finish God's task before the rain came. Because he had already spent much time building the ark (Gen 6), he pushed through and was counted faithful (Gen 7:1). Some believe that the 7 days represents the worlds ability to repent before destruction. Regardless, Noah enters with his family in the 600 year of his life in the rains/flood came. That word used "etsem" is described as "Very same day" or as the KJV renders it, selfsame day. The same day destruction comes, he enters. The same day fire and brimstone rained down, Lot entered Zoar, the same day destruction came on Jericho, Rahab and her family were saved, the same day the Jews were to be destroyed by Xerxes decree, they were saved, the same day the Jews walked through dry land, the flood came and destroyed the Egyptian army. Otherwise, please explain how the wicked in darkness would see the thief coming and stop doing the things we are told in Luke 17 that they were doing for 7 days. There is nothing about Noah needing to "finish God's task" 7 days before the rain came. Nothing about building or finishing or anything like it is in Genesis 7. I have no idea where you get this from. We know that Genesis 6 is where the command was to build the ark, but nothing about finishing a task. There was only a command to build the ark in Genesis 6 and a command to board it in Genesis 7. All that was written in Genesis 7 was God, out of the blue, in the 600th year of Noah just all of a sudden ordered Noah to board the ark 7 days before the wrath begins. The 7 days was such an important detail that it was written about twice: 1) Genesis 7:4 2) Genesis 7:10 As to your comment about the world pausing for 7 days...? I have no idea what you're talking about. You lost me on that one. There are 2 variations to the actual boarding of the ark written in Genesis 7. I think I just figured out why they differ: Boarding variations: Variation 1 is Genesis 7:1-12 -- the boarding started 7 days before the rain began Variation 2 is Genesis 7:13-16 --the boarding was on "the same self day", but verse 13 doesn't actually specify as to what else occurred other than the actual boarding... that is... until you get to verse 16; God shut the door to the ark on "the same self day" as when Noah and everybody else boarded it. Read the Hebrew of Genesis 7:13-16. "the same self day" is the predicate to God shutting the door. That would be a miracle. biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/7.htmThis means that the whole boarding process occurred in 1 single day... which was 7 days before the God's wrath began. WOW! Thank you venge This is Amazing! Now I'm even more convinced of Noah being a type for the Pre-Trib rapture!!! This has been a good day. *shakes off the dust from his sandals* |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 16, 2021 12:49:26 GMT -6
Can we all agree that God's warning to Noah came 7 days before the rain/wrath? I think that is the most important part here. Did we get a warning 7 days(years) before tribulation begins? Maybe so. I think there is precedent enough in scripture to support this. For us, I believe it to be a pretty obvious warning; total eclipse of the sun over the largest gentile nation on Earth, 33 days later the first Rev. 12 sign. 7 years later another total eclipse over the same country. (On an aside, my wife still keeps seeing 4:24, the month and year of the next eclipse, in more places than just the clock. Take that as you want).
These warnings come in many different ways. Brother Chad from Edgewater made a connection with Joshua (Yeshua) leading the Israelites over the Jordan when he pointed out that the people were to stay 2000 cubits back from the Ark of the covenant so that they could see the way that they should go. Huh, Jesus (our mercy(seat)) goes on ahead to show us the way we should go 2000 years ahead of us? Pretty amazing warning. Another warning that time is up?
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 16, 2021 16:55:12 GMT -6
Can we all agree that God's warning to Noah came 7 days before the rain/wrath? I think that is the most important part here. Did we get a warning 7 days(years) before tribulation begins? Maybe so. I think there is precedent enough in scripture to support this. For us, I believe it to be a pretty obvious warning; total eclipse of the sun over the largest gentile nation on Earth, 33 days later the first Rev. 12 sign. 7 years later another total eclipse over the same country. (On an aside, my wife still keeps seeing 4:24, the month and year of the next eclipse, in more places than just the clock. Take that as you want). These warnings come in many different ways. Brother Chad from Edgewater made a connection with Joshua (Yeshua) leading the Israelites over the Jordan when he pointed out that the people were to stay 2000 cubits back from the Ark of the covenant so that they could see the way that they should go. Huh, Jesus (our mercy(seat)) goes on ahead to show us the way we should go 2000 years ahead of us? Pretty amazing warning. Another warning that time is up? That is a pretty cool connection. |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 16, 2021 17:47:20 GMT -6
Just a few thoughts.
Please consider that there are two main destruction events surrounding the return of the Savior:
1) the first of which is the destruction upon the saints (Dan. 7:25, Rev. 13:7),
2) and the second of which is the destruction upon the people of the earth (Rev. 16:21).
So, while reading Luke these two events appear to be intermingled as follows:
2) Luke 17:22-24,
1-2) Luke 17:25-30,
2) Luke 17:31-37.
So it appears that the Savior begins by stating that His apostles will not see the day of His coming (v. 17:22) and this is because His coming is 2,000 years into the future.
Next, the Savior provides a warning in Verse 17:23 that we who are alive at the time of His coming are not to go looking for Him.
And lastly in Verse 17:24 He tells us that His coming will be very obvious.
Then the Savior returns to the time that He is speaking to the apostles; that He must first suffer the atonement (v. 25).
He also states that the people will be marring and giving in marriage as well as working (v. 26-27, 28); and it is logical to conclude that they are doing this while the saints are being persecuted; while the beast is destroying the saints of God (1 above). And, that when the saints are exiting it is then that the destruction comes upon the people of the earth (v. 29-30). This is the rapture as well as the resurrection at then ending; when the Savior returns in his glory. In these verses He is equating the flood (v. 27) as well as the fire & brimstone from heaven (v. 29), to his revealing (v. 30).
The Savior continues that in that day, on one side of the earth, and in that night, on the other side of the earth, those who have saved their lives via the mark of the beast IMO shall loose their lives via destruction, and those who lost their lives during the mark of the beast IMO have preserved it (vv. 31-33).
The last part of this segment (vv. 34-37) pertains to those who were not murdered by the beast. That they will be taken and this appears to be the rapture.
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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2021 13:05:30 GMT -6
Hey Gary question for you on this statement: I dont quite read Gen 7 the same way. Can you clarify how you arrive at this conclusion in light of: Are we just reading this different in light of our understanding? I see that the Lord instructed Noah to get the animals on the ark with 7 days to complete the task. I read this like it took 7 days for all the animals to be placed in the ark as it would be a logistical nightmare to try to accomplish it in one day. The Lord sent the animals, but its doubtful they knew exactly where they needed to go once in the ark. However I dont see that Noah was inside with the door shut for 7 days before the flood started. I know you asked Gary, but I will take a stab at this. First of all you missed this part of Genesis 7: God told Noah to enter the ark, then after 7 days the rain would begin You will note that verse 15 points out that the animals went into the Ark to Noah. Noah was in the Ark before the animals entered, God brought the animals into the ark to him. Verse 8 also says this One might say that it took 7 days for all the animals to enter in, however verse 13 seems to indicate that the animals entered in on the same day that Noah did, it is possible that God could have supernaturally transported them into the ark all at once or very quickly. Once inside God closed the door. Than as verse 10 says; after the 7 days the water of the flood came upon the earth. In any case, it is purely speculation to say that the 7 days serve as a type for the church and the rapture. We know exactly what correlates to Noah because scripture tells us: The Coming Of the Son of Man Baptism into Christ's resurrection Rescue of the righteous and punishment of the wicked |
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2021 9:57:38 GMT -6
rt - appreciate your input. I see that you are trying to share your take on it. I think its debatable and not the purpose of this thread. I dont read the text the same as you or Gary however. For example God told Noah to "2 take with you seven..." And in "5 Noah did all the Lord commanded" seems like a summary of the event to me because there is some contradiction in that "9 two and two, male and female, went into the ark... " Noah didnt bring them, they went. But verse two says to take them and he did as commanded but not according to verse 9. We can certainly start a new thread and study this if others wish to do so  We the church are here on earth right now. And the laws and times are changing before our eyes. Regardless of how we see the timing of the resurrection of the dead and subsequent rapture of those left, we should take each day as it is given to us with the hope that He is coming to redeem His reward. And until He does, we remain. The signs are abounding. 3-4 yrs ago, many (including me) thought we were right at the door. The speed at which things have been taking shape is much quicker than 4 years ago! Yet I think that the days ahead will prove even moreso than today. Much like when the earth had a 7 day warning the everything WIPED OUT! His return will be in similar fashion.
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