paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96 
|
Post by paul on Jun 17, 2017 14:18:54 GMT -6
Once I talked to a guy who believes in partial rapture. I told him: “Listen, the difference between virgins is that the wise had the oil, which is the type of the Holy Spirit and the foolish didn't. It’s plain and simple.” He replied that foolish virgins also had some oil, because their lamps were burning and going out. So, it means that they didn’t have enough of the Spirit. “And what is the criteria of being enough?” – I thought. And at that moment the Lord gave me the revelation. He showed me that the foolish ones had the old covenant spirit of slavery and the wise virgins had the new covenant spirit of sonship. I told it to the guy and he was like: “Whoa, I know many interpretations, but never heard this one.” “Sure you didn’t.”  Also the angel from the church of Sardis is like a foolish virgin. He didn’t have the Holy Spirit (oil). That’s why Jesus said that he is dead and told him to strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die. His lampstand was going out like the old covenant which is passing away. Also Jesus revealed Himself as the One who has the seven Spirits of God. (Holy Spirit). Basically Jesus was saying to the angel of the church: “You call yourself Christian (alive), but you are dead and don’t have the Spirit of sonship, by which we cry Abba, Father.” |
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jun 17, 2017 15:24:15 GMT -6
Well if you have the old covenant spirit of slavery, that means you are not saved. As I understand it. So that would be correct, and we are back to a rapture of the saved only.  |
|
|
|
Post by findtruth on Jul 4, 2017 13:51:55 GMT -6
There was a video on ' the who will be raptured ' thread about this parable. It is very plausible to me that this parable could indeed be meant for the rapture where there is 5 saved virgins and 5 not saved but think they are. This makes sense to me. It could be the correct interpretation.
|
|
paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 5, 2017 3:26:05 GMT -6
I believe that the parable of 10 Virgins relates to the Jews and not to the Church. The Gospel of Mathew is the Messianic Gospel where Jesus portrayed as the son of David and the son of Abraham (King of the Jews) and it was written to them. On another hand the Gospel of Luke is for the Gentiles (all nations) where Jesus portrayed as the Son of Man or Son of Adam -- the father of all nations.
I also believe that the 5 wise virgins are 144,000 who are called virgins in the book of Revelation. The clue to this in Matthew 25:6: "And at midnight a cry was [heard:] 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!". Who is crying here? As John the Baptist was crying in the wilderness during Jesus' first coming, so 2 Witnesses are going to cry during the first 3.5 years of Jacob's trouble. The midnight here speaks of the tribulation. When the 2 Witnesses together with 144,000 (cloud) will go up to the sky the door will be shut (Mat 25:10) "...and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed." (Rev 15:8)
p.s. We just related too many things with the Church that don't belong to her. It's good to look at all of this with Jewish perspective.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 5, 2017 12:39:00 GMT -6
I believe that the parable of 10 Virgins relates to the Jews and not to the Church. The Gospel of Mathew is the Messianic Gospel where Jesus portrayed as the son of David and the son of Abraham (King of the Jews) and it was written to them. On another hand the Gospel of Luke is for the Gentiles (all nations) where Jesus portrayed as the Son of Man or Son of Adam -- the father of all nations. . . . . . p.s. We just related too many things with the Church that don't belong to her. It's good to look at all of this with Jewish perspective. I'm not sure why it might not be a double-use passage that pertains to more than one thing at once, just like so many Old Testament passages that do the same. |
|
paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 6, 2017 2:07:51 GMT -6
I'm not sure why it might not be a double-use passage that pertains to more than one thing at once, just like so many Old Testament passages that do the same. Jim, I agree that parables of Jesus are like precious stones and they have many sides to it. If we relate the parable of 10 Virgins to the Church, then we need to answer questions such as: “Who was crying at midnight?”, “What is the meaning of the night?”, “What is the oil and how come a Christian doesn’t have it?”, “If the oil represents the Holy Spirit, then how come you can’t share it?”, “Why are there 10 of them?” “Is Jesus going to merry 5 Virgins?”, “Is He a polygamist?” and so on… Personally, the Church is not a building or people that gather for Sunday services. The Church is the body of Christ Jesus and the only way to be in the Body is to be baptized by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). In other words, you need to possess the Holy Spirit and be sealed by Him. Otherwise the person is not a Christian and does not belong to Christ (Rom 8:9), and it doesn’t matter if he goes some place on Sunday or call himself a Christian. Why such a person could be considered a virgin in the first place? He is a Gentile… Someone might point out to the angel of the church in Sardis. He had a name that he is alive (Christian), but Jesus said he is dead. So he must be a one of the foolish virgins… Well, I believe that the seven angels are all Jews and that’s why they typified by the seven stars in the hand of Jesus. 12 tribes of Israel are also represented by the 12 stars in the Scripture… John saw Jesus walking among 7 lampstands and holding 7 stars. As you can see Jesus has no problems with the golden lampstands that represent churches, but He has some problems with the stars. Jesus said to one of the stars: “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent.” There are the same words that Paul wrote to Hebrews: “And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chasten…” The lampstands don’t need any rebuking or chastening, but the Jewish believers (angels/stars), who are one leg in and one out (lukewarm) need it. That is why we can find many harsh things in the letter to Hebrews as well as in the epistle of James. |
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 6, 2017 6:08:46 GMT -6
I'm not sure why it might not be a double-use passage that pertains to more than one thing at once, just like so many Old Testament passages that do the same. Jim, I agree that parables of Jesus are like precious stones and they have many sides to it. Ok, well let me see what I can do here. . . .If we relate the parable of 10 Virgins to the Church, then we need to answer questions such as: “Who was crying at midnight?”, The Lord shall descend with a shout. “What is the meaning of the night?”, This question is not a problem for me--almost the entire church is in the darkness as to the fact that the Lord is soon returning. They are sleepy and not awake, doing their Father's business as they ought to: Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. “What is the oil and how come a Christian doesn’t have it?”, The Oil is the Holy Spirit. There are two kinds of Christians--real ones and fake ones. Real ones have the Holy Spirit, fake ones do not. “If the oil represents the Holy Spirit, then how come you can’t share it?”, The only way we can share the Holy Spirit is to share the Gospel. When the Rapture occurs there will not be enough time for someone to change their mind and get saved. “Why are there 10 of them?” Could be for any number of reasons--is the exact number important? Perhaps it is--but would the same story have worked if there were 18 or 20 or 4? Probably. “Is Jesus going to merry 5 Virgins?”, These are not brides, they are brides-maids. “Is He a polygamist?” Well He does have two wives, the Church and Israel. See my thread on Rachel and Leah. But He is not marrying these virgins. and so on… Personally, the Church is not a building or people that gather for Sunday services. The Church is the body of Christ Jesus and the only way to be in the Body is to be baptized by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). In other words, you need to possess the Holy Spirit and be sealed by Him. Otherwise the person is not a Christian and does not belong to Christ (Rom 8:9), That's exactly what I said above--half of these virgins were not saved, they were fakers. and it doesn’t matter if he goes some place on Sunday or call himself a Christian. Why such a person could be considered a virgin in the first place? He is a Gentile… The opposite of virgin is not Gentile. The opposite of Gentile is Jew. The opposite of virgin is someone who has had sexual relations.Someone might point out to the angel of the church in Sardis. He had a name that he is alive (Christian), but Jesus said he is dead. So he must be a one of the foolish virgins… Well, I believe that the seven angels are all Jews and that’s why they typified by the seven stars in the hand of Jesus. 12 tribes of Israel are also represented by the 12 stars in the Scripture… So are you saying that the 7 churches are in the Tribulation period? Wow, I do believe that's the first time I heard anyone say that! Or that they are particularly Jewish in nature. I don't believe this is particularly the case. The 7 churches were literal churches at the time of John's writing, and I have always understood them to also represent the progress of the global church down through the ages through our current time.John saw Jesus walking among 7 lampstands and holding 7 stars. As you can see Jesus has no problems with the golden lampstands that represent churches, but He has some problems with the stars. Jesus said to one of the stars: I'm sorry but I don't see that logic conclusive. Maybe I'm missing something. “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent.” There are the same words that Paul wrote to Hebrews: “And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chasten…” The lampstands don’t need any rebuking or chastening, but the Jewish believers (angels/stars), who are one leg in and one out (lukewarm) need it. That is why we can find many harsh things in the letter to Hebrews as well as in the epistle of James. I agree that the connection of a star to each church is intriguing since stars are also used to refer to the Tribes of Israel. I had never made the connection before, but I am not sure whether these stars are conclusively stating that there is a Jewish angel/messenger there. I have always taken the stars/angels/messengers simply to mean the human pastor or leader of each church, whomever he might be. |
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 6, 2017 6:12:38 GMT -6
But having said all that, Paul, I do think it is more likely that the parable of the virgins refers to the saved of the Tribulation period. I do not believe it includes the 144,000. I believe they are a special case, and they are not in question of their salvation at any time. I believe many many more will follow Christ than only these few 144,000--untold millions will believe, especially out of the currently under-evangelized portions of the world.
I just think it is possible that there is a message about the Rapture in this parable as well.
|
|
paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 7, 2017 2:41:55 GMT -6
Jim, thank you for the comprehensive response. There are some things that I want to touch about our discussion. 1) "But He is not marrying these virgins." (agree). How come then they could be considered the Church? Church is His bride, right? 2) "is the exact number important?" Yes it is. The numbers in the Scripture are as important as the names. God didn't waste His breath just to fill out blanks and make the story interesting. The number 10 in the Scripture represent the Law. The 10 Virgins represent God's people living under God's Law. 3) "Well He does have two wives, the Church and Israel". I believe that Jacob is the type of the Holy Spirit. God is the God of Abraham (Father), Isaac (Son) and Jacob (Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit (Father) married Israel (Leah) at the mount Sinai when He made the covenant with her. The Holy Spirit (Son) married the Church (Rachel) when He made a covenant with her at the cross. The 2 wives become one (Eph 2:15). (Perhaps this belongs to your Rachel & Leah thread). 4) "not be enough time for someone to change their mind and get saved." To be saved you don't have to change anybody's mind. That's why I don't like the movie "Fireproof". Salvation is by grace trough faith... And if the oil here represent the Holy Spirit then how come it won't be enough for both of them (Virgins) if they share it? Not enough of the Holy Spirit? 5) "The opposite of virgin is someone who has had sexual relations." Israel had sexual relations and God still called her Virgin (Jer 31:4). The Lord doesn't judge according to the flesh. Spiritually spiking if someone pretends to be a Christian then he is not a God's person (Virgin). He is no different from a Gentile. He shouldn't be considered a foolish virgin in the first place. 6) "So are you saying that the 7 churches are in the Tribulation period?" No. The lampstands (ones who overcomes) don't go through the tribulation. On the other hand only the angel of Philadelphia is promised not to go through it. That is why Jesus rebuked others. 7) "I have always taken the stars/angels/messengers simply to mean the human pastor or leader of each church." (I thought it too for quite a while, but repented (change my mind) ) There is a clear difference between the golden lampstands and the stars. Spiritually speaking what is the difference between a pastor of local congregation and the "regular" believer? They are both different members of Christ's body or different candle-sticks of a lampstand. On the other hand Jewish messengers (stars) do have a separate standing even as the 12 apostles of the Lamb have its own standing in the New Jerusalem. In John 21 we can find 7 apostles (messengers) go fishing at night. (The gospel of John is a prophetic one) Are they the type of the 7 stars? Just wondering... |
|
paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 7, 2017 2:54:58 GMT -6
I just think it is possible that there is a message about the Rapture in this parable as well. Indeed! The Rapture or the "Come up here" that we can find in Revelation 11. |
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 7, 2017 11:07:21 GMT -6
A lot to chew on here. As I said, I do think, after all the discussion, that the Parable of the Virgins speaks mostly to the saved (or a particular subset of these ones) of the Tribulation week. Also, it does seem to follow that the ones referred to are Israelites. The number 10, you are correct, does seem to indicate a connection to the Law of Moses. Tens are rare in the Bible. . . . Why five and five, I don't exactly know except that 5 is the number of grace, so evidently 5 were under the grace of God and 5 were not...although I am just thinking out loud based on my understanding of numerology. Oil definitely refers to the Holy Spirit.
My conclusions at this point:
This speaks primarily to a group of people in the Tribulation week.
These people are probably all Jewish.
These people evidently are all together in a recognized group (possibly symbolized by the Woman of Rev. 12 who is protected for 3.5 years).
These people are probably not, and probably do not include the 144,000. Those are sealed, and their relation to Christ the Lamb is never in question.
These are NOT the only people to be saved from their sins during the tribulation, if these are all Jewish, or to survive to the end of the Tribulation, because MANY gentiles will too.
And yes I could probably be wrong on some of these points, but this is my understanding so far.
|
|
paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 8, 2017 2:34:01 GMT -6
Jim, why do you think that 144,000 is some separate group? Isn't sealing the same thing as receiving the Holy Spirit? In the Bible a seal is usually represents a spirit. It's like 7 seals are 7 evil spirits that prevent scroll from being open and that's why John wept. Paul also wrote that God "sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee" (2 Cor 1:22) and here "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph 1:13) and here "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Eph 4:3) I also think that oil in this parable speaks of the Holy Spirit that is why 144,000 fit into the category of 5 wise virgins who received the Holy Spirit or having been sealed by Him. When I tell this to my wife, her usual response: "How come you can't share the Holy Spirit and how come it won't be enough for you if you share??" And I have nothing to response. Maybe during first 3.5 years only 2 Witnesses will have the power to give the Holy Spirit. It is like in Acts 8 when people of Samaria heard the good news and been baptized, but then they waited for apostles to come so they would give them the Holy Spirit (seal) through the laying on of hands. (I always wondered why Philip couldn't just give them the Spirit). If that is the case then 2 Witnesses could be the merchants who "sell" oil. So while foolish virgins were looking for 2 Witnesses, the beast killed them and then they got raised and went to the sky and it was too late. |
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 8, 2017 7:16:13 GMT -6
The 144,000 are sealed with a mark on the forehead, just like Cain was in Genesis, to keep them from being harmed. The other believers will not be sealed, and they will be able to be harmed, killed, martyred, destroyed by plagues, etc.
The word seal does not have to always refer specifically to the Holy Spirit, though it is true that the 144,000 will have the Holy Spirit, and so it probably does refer to it.
Hmm interesting about getting the Holy Spirit from the 2 Witnesses only. I just don't think God works that way-- in the Old Testament people did not have to receive the Holy Spirit to be saved, they had to believe God. I believe that is the fact across all ages--to be saved from your sins, you have to believe in the Savior to save you from your sins. The Holy Spirit dwelling within is not what determines if someone is saved (for they did not have His indwelling continually in the Old Testament, but we do have Him indwelling us continually in the Church age). The indwelling of the Spirit is a special blessing to us in the Church Age that never happened in a previous age, and evidently, may not happen in any other age to come (for mortals). However, it does seem that the 144,000 are an exception to this case--they will have the indwelling of the Spirit during their part of the 7 years, but not the millions of other people who turn to Christ during that period.
One thing is for sure--the 2 Witnesses will explain it thoroughly when they arrive on the scene. It may be somewhat of a mystery for us now, as it doesn't apply to us anyway.
None of the 144,000 will lose their souls.
MANY more than the 144,000 will be saved during the 70th Week.
The 144,000 will be sealed for their protection. This is what the passage says. However, this may also refer to the Spirit indwelling them. But it is specifically for their protection.
Rev. 14 does seem to indicate a rapture for the 144,000--that is to say, they get their own special treatment. See Rev. 14.
I just noticed the numerical significance of Revelation chapter 14, and verse 4. 14:4 is like 144. Like 144,000.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
|
|
paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
|
Post by paul on Jul 8, 2017 9:39:01 GMT -6
I just noticed the numerical significance of Revelation chapter 14, and verse 4. 14:4 is like 144. Like 144,000. The numbers of chapters in the book of Revelation do have the numerical significance. There are 22 chapters and it is the same as the number of letters in Hebrew alphabet. Each chapter corresponds to a letter and its similar to Psalm 119. In Hebrew there are no special characters for numbers so they use letters and each letter has a meaning to it. For example the 14th letter in Hebrew alphabet is Nun and the symbol is Fish. The chapter 14 is about harvest and the separation the of wicked from among the righteous spoken by Jesus in the parable of dragnet (Mat 13:47-50) |
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jul 8, 2017 11:26:30 GMT -6
I quickly saw letter Dalet in chapter 4--the Door opened in Heaven. |
|
