The catholic (universal) church

To help those of you who don't wish to wade through my writings and renditions of the early church and the first christians, I'll put a series of links here to some videos which I will number in order, that cover the basics of the early church, the claims of the Roman catholic church as it pertains to a pope from that period, and about apostolic succession. They are very informative and factual, not an "alternative" history. I have done my own homework to confirm this, and if you doubt any of this, I encourage you to do yours as well. I hope ya'll enjoy and are blessed by these teachings.

Introduction to the second century church     Pope in the second century? pt.1   Part2   Part3   Part4   Part5   Apostolic succession pt1   Part2   Part3   Part4

I think you're misunderstanding me. And it sounds like our views don't differ much. Maybe how we approach it, though.

Scripture is a perfect record. It perfectly records what happened. Sometimes what happened wasn't right. It wasn't right that Peter denied Christ three times. It wasn't right that Peter separated from Gentiles (Paul called him condemned). It wasn't right that the Judaizer party of James was causing division.

Scripture itself records their imperfections for all to see. It's a reminder that we look only to Jesus, which is what your quoted passage, Matthew 23:10-11, suggests.

All that said, I concur we press on toward unity insofar as we can. And I agree you can see evidence of great humility and repentance in the early Church as they suffered persecution and served Jesus together.

So to be clear, I don't "doubt any of Scripture." I'm only pointing out that followers of Jesus are supremely human—including those recorded in the Scriptures. We don't follow everything they did. We follow Jesus. It's important to rightly divide Scripture, recognizing the difference between narrative, suggestion, and command. It's even more important to divide between law and grace.

And I was also pointing out that the early Church struggled with many of the same questions the Church struggles with today.  Were they unified overall?  Sure.  But they also struggled with law vs grace, the deity of Christ, Trinitarianism vs modalism, ecclesiology, eschatology, and social issues just as we do today.



Of course.






No real disagreement from me.  All Scripture is God-breathed.  Imperfect men recorded the perfect words of God as prompted by the Spirit.  That said, the Old Testament points to Christ.  He's the main character.






I don't have stated reasons for doubting Scripture.  I don't doubt Scripture.



Sure.  As stated above, it's a perfect record, but it is not a pot of stew with everything mixed together.  Some things written in the word should not be followed.  In fact, many things followed would lead to condemnation.  Some things are applied, others are not.  That's what I'm saying.





That's not us here.  All Scripture is God-breathed.

Since Gary pointed out Origenism, I'd like to address this particular topic for a second or two.
The first point I'd like to make is that Origenism was not taught by Origen. It was adopted and interpreted after his death. It is ascribed to him, wrongly in my opinion, because people interpreted things he wrote in a certain way. 
In fact this form of "heresy" came about in the fourth century around Palestine first. Origen died in 253 AD. 
The irony in this is that the of the three people known to have been adamantly against Origen's teachings. Namely Ephanius, Jerome and Pope Theophilus, Jerome and the Pope were both previous supporters of Origen. The bishop of Jerusalem was asked to condemn Origen as a heretic, and the bishop flatly refused. A petition was later written up to to censure his writings and was also rejected.
The Pope subsequently issued a condemnation of some of Origen's writing, which Theophilus himself had previously vocally supported.
The later “heresy” associated with Origenism, was more about beliefs that were associated with him in the 6th century. Which resulted in an anathema being written, supposedly against Origen's writings, but it and the surrounding facts are dubious at best and flatly claimed as deceptive by many.

The oldest known Christian "tract" is known as "the 2 ways" quoted by both the letter of Barnabas and the Didache, with very little difference. This is the version from the letter os Barnabas ...

THE WAY OF LIGHT
The way of light, then, is as follows. If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. Thou shalt love Him that created thee: thou shalt glorify Him that redeemed thee from death. Thou shalt be simple in heart, and rich in spirit. Thou shalt not join thyself to those who walk in the way of death. Thou shalt hate doing what is unpleasing to God: thou shalt hate all hypocrisy. Thou shalt not forsake the commandments of the Lord. Thou shalt not exalt thyself, but shalt be of a lowly mind. Thou shalt not take glory to thyself. Thou shalt not take evil counsel against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not allow over-boldness to enter into thy soul. Thou shalt not commit fornication: thou shalt not commit adultery: thou shalt not be a corrupter of youth. Thou shalt not let the word of God issue from thy lips with any kind of impurity. Thou shalt not accept persons when thou reprovest any one for transgression. Thou shalt be meek: thou shalt be peaceable. Thou shalt tremble at the words which thou hearest. Thou shalt not be mindful of evil against thy brother. Thou shalt not be of doubtful mind as to whether a thing shall be or not. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain. Thou shalt love thy neighbour more than thine own soul. Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born. Thou shalt not withdraw thy hand from thy son, or from thy daughter, but from their infancy thou shalt teach them the fear of the Lord. Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbour’s, nor shalt thou be avaricious. Thou shalt not be joined in soul with the haughty, but thou shalt be reckoned with the righteous and lowly. Receive thou as good things the trials which come upon thee. Thou shalt not be of double mind or of double tongue, for a double tongue is a snare of death. Thou shalt be subject to the Lord, and to [other] masters as the image of God, with modesty and fear. Thou shalt not issue orders with bitterness to thy maidservant or thy man-servant, who trust in the same [God], lest thou shouldst not reverence that God who is above both; for He came to call men not according to their outward appearance, but according as the Spirit had prepared them. Thou shalt communicate in all things with thy neighbour; thou shalt not call things thine own; for if ye are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more [should you be] of those things which are corruptible! Thou shalt not be hasty with thy tongue, for the mouth is a snare of death. As far as possible, thou shalt be pure in thy soul. Do not be ready to stretch forth thy hands to take, whilst thou contractest them to give. Thou shalt love, as the apple of thine eye, every one that speaketh to thee the word of the Lord. Thou shalt remember the day of judgment, night and day. Thou shalt seek out every day the faces of the saints, either by word examining them, and going to exhort them, and meditating how to save a soul by the word, or by thy hands thou shalt labour for the redemption of thy sins. Thou shalt not hesitate to give, nor murmur when thou givest. “Give to every one that asketh thee,” and thou shalt know who is the good Recompenser of the reward. Thou shalt preserve what thou hast received [in charge], neither adding to it nor taking from it. To the last thou shalt hate the wicked [one]. Thou shalt judge righteously. Thou shalt not make a schism, but thou shalt pacify those that contend by bringing them together. Thou shalt confess thy sins. Thou shalt not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.

THE WAY OF DARKNESS
But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression, deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice, want of the fear of God. [In this way, too,] are those who persecute the good, those who hate truth, those who love falsehood, those who know not the reward of righteousness, those who cleave not to that which is good, those who attend not with just judgment to the widow and orphan, those who watch not to the fear of God, [but incline] to wickedness, from whom meekness and patience are far off; persons who love vanity, follow after a reward, pity not the needy, labour not in aid of him who is overcome with toil; who are prone to evil-speaking, who know not Him that made them, who are murderers of children, destroyers of the workmanship of God; who turn away him that is in want, who oppress the afflicted, who are advocates of the rich, who are unjust judges of the poor, and who are in every respect transgressors.

CONCLUSION
It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]. The Lord is near, and His reward. Again, and yet again, I beseech you: be good lawgivers to one another; continue faithful counsellors of one another; take away from among you all hypocrisy. And may God, who ruleth over all the world, give to you wisdom, intelligence, understanding, knowledge of His judgments, with patience. And be ye taught of God, inquiring diligently what the Lord asks from you; and do it that ye maybe safe in the day of judgment.1723 And if you have any remembrance of what is good, be mindful of me, meditating on these things, in order that both my desire and watchfulness may result in some good. I beseech you, entreating this as a favour. While yet you are in this fair vessel, do not fail in any one of those things, but unceasingly seek after them, and fulfil every commandment; for these things are worthy. Wherefore I have been the more earnest to write to you, as my ability served, that I might cheer you. Farewell, ye children of love and peace. The Lord of glory and of all grace be with your spirit. Amen.

I have noticed at many of the “christian” sites I've visited and read on, a tendency to marginalize the Early Fathers, or First Christians. This is usually done in a polite and seemingly reasonable manner. Often by making a point to point out that they had occasional issues themselves. (I'm not addressing anyone in particular here)

The sad result of this is that many don't avail themselves of the rich history of their belief. Which in my own personal view is invaluable in confirming what and how they believed and practiced their beliefs. They are often compared to us in modern day, which is not really anywhere near an honest comparison.

The church has always had those within it that were subversive. Sin and sinners will never be free from the entire church, till we are taken to be with the Lord.

Did the Early church have a few people who were acting in an improper manner? Absolutely. Was that the rule? Not even close. Was this the exceptions? It certainly was. History bears this out in many ways.

The problems that arose in the first few centuries, particularly before the first council of Nicea, were few and were dealt with in what in that time, would be considered an expedient manner.

Part of the issue is that churches were beginning to “pop up” all over as the Word spread. So, the “church” (meaning the established churches that were founded by apostles and disciples, or those who were in accord with them), had no control over the rogue churches that randomly appeared and taught falsely.

However, realizing this was happening, the EF's wrote quite a lot in order to address all the “known” heresies and false teachings, as they were identified. So, “the church” was very united and of one accord during this time.

We on the other hand, are not even a close second. Any honest look at the EF's churches in comparison to ours is a stark contrast in more ways than there is likeness. This is not to say we do it ALL wrong. But we certainly do most of it differently than the apostles taught the early churches.

There are other obvious considerations to consider as well. Such as the fact that when these people were professing their faith, which was daily, they did so with the understanding that at any point they could, and did have to give their lives for this. That hasn't been a reality for us here in the West, for longer than most of our families can even track their ancestry.

This was a common occurrence, which they faced with an absolute faith. Which they were able to do primarily because they had learned from the apostles and the disciples the truth of the faith. They took great care to keep to this without adding or subtracting from it. It was a point of pride with them to be adherent to the traditions passed on by the apostles.

During this period, they even kept records of who was taught by whom, so they could provide a direct link back to the apostles teachings, when there was a dispute or a question as to doctrine and the like.

There are even select people who wrote that had directly been taught by apostles and or disciples. We have long, long ago lost any links to or claims to be reasonably claimed to be like this. Our society has become something an apostle wouldn't recognize. Or if they did, they would likely see this society as a whole, as being the spawn of satan. (the latter is just my personal opinion)

I know this can be seen as a negative posting, but it is not meant to make us out to be wrong and bad. But merely to put where we are today in context with where they were then.

We, the “modern church” like to tout how we study and follow scripture and consider ourselves to be “good christians”. This may or may not be true, depending on what your definition of a “good christian” is.

Generally we think of this as meaning we are believers and we are “good” people, meaning we do good. That isn't particularly the definition of what being christian is, though it is certainly part of being a christian. Being a christian, in my understanding, means being a follower of Christ.

That entails much more than just doing good, or just believing. Jesus himself says there will be those who do things in His name and perform acts in His name, but He will say they don't know Him. One of the central and most important parts of being a christian involves faith. Faith is not the same as belief.

Belief is more or less a mental thing, it predominately involves deciding something. Faith is more of an action word. It involves doing something. This is why the scriptures say your faith should be “manifest”. This implies that it can be seen by others around you. Doing good can be a result of faith, but it doesn't have to be.

Living a life of faith involves doing all those things Jesus teaches us to do, and not just when it is convenient or when we know people are watching. It implies converting your mind and your actions to make a habit of acting, and speaking, and thinking in God's word.

This is what the EF's did. The proof is in the pudding as it were. They gave up their lives rather than alter them to fit the world. They didn't ask for the trials and tribulations to be taken from them. They used them. In the manner they were taught, to perfect their faith.

They prayed for strength, that they might overcome these things in a way befitting God's glory. The bible even gives these a special honor for giving up their lives for the gospel.

So, finding reasons why we shouldn't follow their lead, or why they had issues, is missing the entire point. We would do well to try to be nearly as faithful and keep the traditions of the apostles in any way resembling them.

Lets just look at a few examples we know of, for certain, they did or didn't do which we do or don't do or follow, as a general rule.

1. We don't have assembly in the same format or by the same rules that they did.
2. We routinely point out individual churches failures while ignoring our own
3. Our church governance is not the way theirs was
4. We use honorifics they didn't
5. They didn't bring converts into the churches to convert them
6. They had one universal or “catholic” church
7. They held people accountable for walking in the Word
8. They routinely gave up and or sold what was beyond basic needs, to help the needy
9. They had personal interactions with and knew intimately those within the churches
10. They considered all the brethren equal in God's family. Those who had an education and could elaborate at great length on scripture (scholars) were no greater or better or more knowledgeable than those who only read and or repeated scripture and could elaborate little (commoners)

There is much I could unpack within those ten things, but this is not meant to be a book. I'll do that individually in another posting, if it seems appropriate. I'll leave the individual to examine and learn how and or what the EF's did, if they so choose to learn.

I hope this brought light and blessings to some. Hopefully it offended few. As I said, I didn't address anyone or any particular belief or group, in the hopes that this would be just historical and enlightening, rather than contentious.

Be blessed!