Post by servantofthelord on Jul 15, 2021 21:55:05 GMT -6
After reading the very well written and moving article on the home page here - letter to all religious churchians - I felt this was a good topic to openly explore with everyone.
Rather than critique the author, I'd rather discuss the conclusion he came to. That he was no longer going to pray/ask for forgiveness.
While the motivation and reasoning behind this are understandable, I fear the act may not be founded in a solid place scripturally. Let me elaborate on what I mean.
It may be true, that the scriptures do not specifically say we are required to ask for forgiveness of our sins, does that mean we shouldn't? There are a great many things that the bible doesn't literally say, but that of itself doesn't mean we are to do or not do those things for that reason. We ARE to look to Jesus for our example, but obviously He never sinned, so He never would have asked for forgiveness for them. He did however ask for forgiveness from the father for those who persecuted Him. Doing so, especially out loud has a meaning. Since He and the Father are one, he never had to utter a word to do this, so it must have been intended for the listeners, just as when he spoke to the Father on the mount, for the benefit of the apostles listening.
So, His example was to ask for forgiveness of those who sinned against Him. When we sin, who do we sin against? Obviously we sin against Him as well. So if He did it, why should we not do it?
Lets look at this from a more practical application. When we wrong someone we love, do we admit it? Well we should, you cannot expect to be forgiven for something you won't own up to, right? Therefore we own up to it and apologize to the one we offended.But do we just leave it there and call it even? No, that wouldn't be too respectful. So, let's go another step. Once we admit what we have done to wrong our loved one, even though we know full well that they will forgive us, do we just leave it there and move on? Of course not. We apologize and ask them to forgive us, even though we know already they either have, or will. There is a good reason for that, well a couple actually. First off, because it forces us to humble ourselves, which makes us think twice before doing it again, if we are truly sorry for what we have done. Secondly, it shows we are taking ownership of our mistake, and committing ourselves to not repeating it. Thirdly, and also importantly, it means we have repented the deed and in front of our peer, asked forgiveness, which adds the element of accountability. If we don't ask forgiveness, we are free to do it again without repercussion, because we didn't truly repent of our deed, we just acknowledged it.
By asking forgiveness of a thing, we are admitting the deed, stating our sorrow at doing it, and asking that person to trust us to not do it again. Repentance is not just admitting your wrong, it is suffering the consequences, that you will be less likely to repeat it. While in the process, showing love and respect for the person who we wronged in the process.
If we skip the asking for forgiveness, we shortcut the humility we are supposed to be exhibiting and we suffer less shame of it, by not asking to be forgiven, whereby we are making a commitment to change the problem. The impetus for the change should be the desire not to wrong again, but the consequence for doing so is not nearly as shameful or embarrassing if we never asked for forgiveness to begin with.
We ask forgiveness both to help us, and to show respect to the other. Thats what love is. Treat others as you would have them treat you. How does it make you feel when someone asks for you to forgive them? It's a little awkward at times, usually because you have already forgiven them without them asking, but it is sure a good sign that they did. It says a lot about their character.
People tend to trust you more when you go the extra mile to prove you have changed, not just expect that your good with it and move on. If we give this much love and respect to our human loved ones, how could we do less for the God that created us and forgives us and promises us eternal life?
The issue most have, as I see it, is they pray to be forgiven, then expect God to just take the problem away. When it doesn't go away, they repeat their actions and of course ask forgiveness again. That is not going to solve anything. there is no real repentance there. Repentance is an action word, not a thought exercise. If you just admit the wrong, it doesn't go away. God doesn't want your life to be easy, he wants you to do His will. Not just think it. He gives you the tools needed to conquer the problem, but you have to use them. He isn't a babysitter, He's a Father. He tries to teach, but we must learn. He will keep putting the same obstacle in your way till you figure out how to get past it, so it won't be an obstacle next time. Thats how He works. In us and through us. Not for us.
This is why the apostles and all the early Christians were able to mock those who persecuted them, they saw suffering as a test and proving/perfecting of their faith. They simply refused to be afraid of death, their faith told them death was just the doorway to life, and avoiding it was to run from eternal life! So they prayed for those killing them and prayed for strength and they were given it. Even the children showed this faith! It is a testament to the power of God and prayer. They asked God to forgive their sins, and they already knew he would. He did one better as He always does, He gave them the strength and courage to literally laugh in the face of torture and death!
Also, here is a list of examples from scripture for asking things of God. I limited it to the New Testament and to quotes that actually had some context. The complete list was extremely long. LOL
Matthew 6:8, Matthew 7:7, Matthew 7:11, Matthew 18:19, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, Luke 11:9, Luke 11:13, John 11:22, John 14:13, John 14:14, John 15:7 , John 15:16, John 16:23, John 16:24, Colossians 1:9 , James 1:5, James 1:6, James 4:2, James 4:3, 1 John 3:22, 1 John 5:14, 1 John 5:15, 1 John 5:16
Rather than critique the author, I'd rather discuss the conclusion he came to. That he was no longer going to pray/ask for forgiveness.
While the motivation and reasoning behind this are understandable, I fear the act may not be founded in a solid place scripturally. Let me elaborate on what I mean.
It may be true, that the scriptures do not specifically say we are required to ask for forgiveness of our sins, does that mean we shouldn't? There are a great many things that the bible doesn't literally say, but that of itself doesn't mean we are to do or not do those things for that reason. We ARE to look to Jesus for our example, but obviously He never sinned, so He never would have asked for forgiveness for them. He did however ask for forgiveness from the father for those who persecuted Him. Doing so, especially out loud has a meaning. Since He and the Father are one, he never had to utter a word to do this, so it must have been intended for the listeners, just as when he spoke to the Father on the mount, for the benefit of the apostles listening.
So, His example was to ask for forgiveness of those who sinned against Him. When we sin, who do we sin against? Obviously we sin against Him as well. So if He did it, why should we not do it?
Lets look at this from a more practical application. When we wrong someone we love, do we admit it? Well we should, you cannot expect to be forgiven for something you won't own up to, right? Therefore we own up to it and apologize to the one we offended.But do we just leave it there and call it even? No, that wouldn't be too respectful. So, let's go another step. Once we admit what we have done to wrong our loved one, even though we know full well that they will forgive us, do we just leave it there and move on? Of course not. We apologize and ask them to forgive us, even though we know already they either have, or will. There is a good reason for that, well a couple actually. First off, because it forces us to humble ourselves, which makes us think twice before doing it again, if we are truly sorry for what we have done. Secondly, it shows we are taking ownership of our mistake, and committing ourselves to not repeating it. Thirdly, and also importantly, it means we have repented the deed and in front of our peer, asked forgiveness, which adds the element of accountability. If we don't ask forgiveness, we are free to do it again without repercussion, because we didn't truly repent of our deed, we just acknowledged it.
By asking forgiveness of a thing, we are admitting the deed, stating our sorrow at doing it, and asking that person to trust us to not do it again. Repentance is not just admitting your wrong, it is suffering the consequences, that you will be less likely to repeat it. While in the process, showing love and respect for the person who we wronged in the process.
If we skip the asking for forgiveness, we shortcut the humility we are supposed to be exhibiting and we suffer less shame of it, by not asking to be forgiven, whereby we are making a commitment to change the problem. The impetus for the change should be the desire not to wrong again, but the consequence for doing so is not nearly as shameful or embarrassing if we never asked for forgiveness to begin with.
We ask forgiveness both to help us, and to show respect to the other. Thats what love is. Treat others as you would have them treat you. How does it make you feel when someone asks for you to forgive them? It's a little awkward at times, usually because you have already forgiven them without them asking, but it is sure a good sign that they did. It says a lot about their character.
People tend to trust you more when you go the extra mile to prove you have changed, not just expect that your good with it and move on. If we give this much love and respect to our human loved ones, how could we do less for the God that created us and forgives us and promises us eternal life?
The issue most have, as I see it, is they pray to be forgiven, then expect God to just take the problem away. When it doesn't go away, they repeat their actions and of course ask forgiveness again. That is not going to solve anything. there is no real repentance there. Repentance is an action word, not a thought exercise. If you just admit the wrong, it doesn't go away. God doesn't want your life to be easy, he wants you to do His will. Not just think it. He gives you the tools needed to conquer the problem, but you have to use them. He isn't a babysitter, He's a Father. He tries to teach, but we must learn. He will keep putting the same obstacle in your way till you figure out how to get past it, so it won't be an obstacle next time. Thats how He works. In us and through us. Not for us.
This is why the apostles and all the early Christians were able to mock those who persecuted them, they saw suffering as a test and proving/perfecting of their faith. They simply refused to be afraid of death, their faith told them death was just the doorway to life, and avoiding it was to run from eternal life! So they prayed for those killing them and prayed for strength and they were given it. Even the children showed this faith! It is a testament to the power of God and prayer. They asked God to forgive their sins, and they already knew he would. He did one better as He always does, He gave them the strength and courage to literally laugh in the face of torture and death!
Also, here is a list of examples from scripture for asking things of God. I limited it to the New Testament and to quotes that actually had some context. The complete list was extremely long. LOL
Matthew 6:8, Matthew 7:7, Matthew 7:11, Matthew 18:19, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, Luke 11:9, Luke 11:13, John 11:22, John 14:13, John 14:14, John 15:7 , John 15:16, John 16:23, John 16:24, Colossians 1:9 , James 1:5, James 1:6, James 4:2, James 4:3, 1 John 3:22, 1 John 5:14, 1 John 5:15, 1 John 5:16