|
|
Post by gospelaxiom on Apr 28, 2021 16:35:17 GMT -6
In my study of the scriptures, I have seen several different interpretations surrounding these verses. In fact in my study, these verses seem to be one of the most enigmatic. The controversy boils down to 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3. I'm curious what your reasoning is for any of the below interpretations and why (assuming I've stated it).
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
I'm going to start with the different interpretations as it relates to verse 2:
1. The most common interpretation I'm familiar with is that Christ should be rendered Lord. Alexandrian manuscripts support this. The Thessalonian church was afraid they missed the rapture and were heading into the day of the Lord.
2. The 2nd interpretation is that the phrase should be rendered Christ, the Byzantine text type supports this, as well as the Codex Claromontanus. One explanation that supports the pretrib view is that Paul is quoting the forged letter. That the forged letter is falsely claiming that the day of Christ is the Day of the Lord.
3. Others like those with the Pre-Wrath position state that the day of Christ (the rapture), does not occur until after the tribulation starts, with the support of verse 3.
4. Another is that Christ and Lord is synonymous, and that in this case, it's not referring to the Bema seat and rapture but rather the Day of the Lord.
As far as interpretations in verse 3:
1. Apostasia is a great apostasy or spiritual departure from the faith.
2. Apostasia is a physical depature, rapture position. The older Textus Receptus Bibles use the word departure, and the Latin Vulgate seems to suggest a physical departure also.
3. Apostasia is a rebellion. Not too familiar with this interpretation.
4. The context of the passage has nothing to do with the rapture. Apostasia relates to the Jews falling away from the law, or in other words, forsaking Moses. They Jews have forsaked Moses and the law by accepting the AntiChrist and thus committing idolatry. They use Acts 21:21 with the use of apostasia to build their case.
I appreciate the most recent article that was posted here on Unsealed by Thomas Ice, but I'm still at odds. I lean towards the idea that Paul is referring to the Day of the Lord, and that the apostasy is a great falling away from the faith. Paul seems to write about a great apostasy in his later letters to Timothy. Yes apostasy has always existed, but there seems a large falling away from the faith right before the Lord catches us up that is unprecendented. I know this issue has likely come up several times, but I would appreciate how you tipped the scales in your mind to accept what you do. Is anybody truly confident in their position of this enigmatic passage? Thank you.
|
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Apr 28, 2021 19:04:58 GMT -6
Paul was reiterating what he was talking about in his first letter to the Thessalonians in chapters 4 & 5. In both 1 Thess 4,5 and 2 Thess 2, Paul was referring to Jeremiah 6 (the chapter as a whole) by referencing various parts of the chapter. Here are the details specified: board.unsealed.org/thread/2537/jeremiah-6-1-thess-5 |
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Apr 28, 2021 20:40:22 GMT -6
In my study of the scriptures, I have seen several different interpretations surrounding these verses. In fact in my study, these verses seem to be one of the most enigmatic. The controversy boils down to 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3. I'm curious what your reasoning is for any of the below interpretations and why (assuming I've stated it). 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?I'm going to start with the different interpretations as it relates to verse 2: 1. The most common interpretation I'm familiar with is that Christ should be rendered Lord. Alexandrian manuscripts support this. The Thessalonian church was afraid they missed the rapture and were heading into the day of the Lord. 2. The 2nd interpretation is that the phrase should be rendered Christ, the Byzantine text type supports this, as well as the Codex Claromontanus. One explanation that supports the pretrib view is that Paul is quoting the forged letter. That the forged letter is falsely claiming that the day of Christ is the Day of the Lord. 3. Others like those with the Pre-Wrath position state that the day of Christ (the rapture), does not occur until after the tribulation starts, with the support of verse 3. 4. Another is that Christ and Lord is synonymous, and that in this case, it's not referring to the Bema seat and rapture but rather the Day of the Lord. As far as interpretations in verse 3: 1. Apostasia is a great apostasy or spiritual departure from the faith. 2. Apostasia is a physical depature, rapture position. The older Textus Receptus Bibles use the word departure, and the Latin Vulgate seems to suggest a physical departure also. 3. Apostasia is a rebellion. Not too familiar with this interpretation. 4. The context of the passage has nothing to do with the rapture. Apostasia relates to the Jews falling away from the law, or in other words, forsaking Moses. They Jews have forsaked Moses and the law by accepting the AntiChrist and thus committing idolatry. They use Acts 21:21 with the use of apostasia to build their case. I appreciate the most recent article that was posted here on Unsealed by Thomas Ice, but I'm still at odds. I lean towards the idea that Paul is referring to the Day of the Lord, and that the apostasy is a great falling away from the faith. Paul seems to write about a great apostasy in his later letters to Timothy. Yes apostasy has always existed, but there seems a large falling away from the faith right before the Lord catches us up that is unprecendented. I know this issue has likely come up several times, but I would appreciate how you tipped the scales in your mind to accept what you do. Is anybody truly confident in their position of this enigmatic passage? Thank you. Wow! You gospelaxiom are very skilled at writing. I am like a blue collar worker and you are a true statesman. As I was considering your proposition, I read 2 Thes. 1 very closely, and then Verse 2:1 followed by Verse 2:2 that clearly go together. However, the change up occurs at Verse 2:3 (IMO); because, it is there that the writer, Paul, references back to the Saviors destruction at Verses 1:6-10. So I went back to Chapter 1 and carefully started again with Chapter 2 in mind and it appears that Chapter 2 is restating Chapter 1 as follows: 2 Thes. 2:1-2 is referencing back to 2 Thes. 1:1-5 2 Thes. 2:3-5 is referencing back to 2 Thes. 1:6-10 1) As a result it is my opinion that " the day of Christ" was the day that Jesus came as a sacrifice for sin; and it was that day that the saints were then living (2 Thes. 1:1-5, 2:1-2). Verse 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (the day that we have an opportunity to accept Christ spoken of in Verses 1:1-5)"
2) Thus it follows that " the day of the Lord" is the coming day of destruction wherein the battle lines are drawn and the option of accepting and following Christ, during that day, no longer exists (2 Thes. 1:6-10, 2:3-5). Verse 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of the Lord spoken of in Verses 1:6-10) shall not come, except there come a falling away first (the apostasy comes first), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 3) The man of sin will be revealed in his time (2 Thes. 2:6), and this is second place to the mystery of iniquity that exists during the day of Christ (2 Thes. 2:7). Please notice that the men who will not work as referenced in 2 Thes. 3:6-15 are doing so during the day of Christ and they are "taken out of the way" as referenced in 2 Thes. 2:7. This seems to be an indicator pointing to the iniquity in 2 Thes. 2:7. So it seems that the men not working precedes the man of sin. Like, the man of sin comes from men that do not work. I guess this would be the apostasy; that during the day of Christ a doctrine occurs (v. 2:7) wherein men do not work, and then from those who do not work comes the man of sin (v. 2:6). This analysis comes from my already biased opinion that Francis is the man of sin; stemming from Rev. 13:18 wherein the 666 represents 400 for the church of Christ and 266 for the government of Francis that is the current Catholic government number. Thus we have the church represented as 400 and then the men that do not work numbering in order from 1 to 266; and that combined total is 666. Thus, the iniquity of the men not working (the apostasy) culminates with the man of sin at the number 266 which is the number that exists today. Thanks and I hope my analysis is correct. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Apr 29, 2021 4:51:30 GMT -6
As to your point #4
"4. The context of the passage has nothing to do with the rapture. Apostasia relates to the Jews falling away from the law, or in other words, forsaking Moses. They Jews have forsaked Moses and the law by accepting the AntiChrist and thus committing idolatry. They use Acts 21:21 with the use of apostasia to build their case. "
Since it is my humble opinion that 1 Thess 4-5 & 2 Thess 2 are actually directly referencing various verses in Jeremiah 6, that also means it's referencing just about most of the prophets dealing with "Jerusalem/Israel" and "Babylon" as a world wide calamity where the AC takes over as God's rod to punish and plunder "Jerusalem" (Isaiah 10:5-6).
The "Apostasia" is likely what Ezekiel 5:5-13 is talking about... and Isaiah 10:1-4. The Harlot invokes governmental laws that allow for Leviticus 18 violations (Genesis 15 Ammorites [in the 4th generation, ie ~4000 years after Abraham... which was 4000 years ago]).
bernie: New York parent seeks OK to marry their own adult child: nypost.com/2021/04/10/new-york-parent-seeks-ok-to-marry-their-own-adult-child/
----------------------
Edit: I'm quite convinced that the prophets are talking about Christ at both is 1st coming and 2nd coming at the same time.
Isaiah 6:8-10 is God speaking to Jesus, and Isaiah is seeing this in his vision.
It's all about the end game of both local Israel, and world wide Spiritual apostate "Israel"/"Babylon" Church.
It can't be denied with Isaiah 13:11 explicitly talking about the entire planet.
----------------------
Paul/the Holy Spirit wasn't just making up new things that have never been prophesied. He, and Jesus, were referencing the prophets from the OT.
---------------
Back to the "apostasy". Isaiah Chapter 1 & 5. That's the "apostasy".
|
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Apr 29, 2021 7:22:27 GMT -6
Washington D.C. is not surrounded by National Guard troops and a 9 foot barrier because of a few flag waving Trump supporters.
We are all in our houses for something big, and it ain't Covid...
Zechariah 1:8 "We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest."
We have the guide book on how it's gunna all play out.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Apr 29, 2021 9:03:44 GMT -6
Personally I am in the #4/#2 camp.
Clearly the Day of the Lord does not come until the church departs. That's the simple and plain reading and totally in context.
A "falling away" from the faith makes little sense in the greater context of the letter. Not even discussed here. It's so unfortunate that the KJV translators chose "falling away". Geneva has the proper word here "departure", which makes total sense contextually. All the hand wringing since 1611 could have been avoided.
15 With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.
What "letter"? 1Thessalonians!
4:15 For this say we unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which live, and are remaining in the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which sleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort yourselves one another with these words.
Now THIS is a message that would give "comfort" to the brethren! No? THIS is the teaching Paul says in verse 2:15 they should refer back to, IMHO.
GBY.
|
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on May 1, 2021 21:18:19 GMT -6
Hope you will not mind if I examine 2 Thessalonians 2 in a chiasmus structure and I am using the Geneva Bible that fitz recommends that I found at www.genevabible.org/files/Geneva_Bible/New_Testament/2_Thessalonians.pdf 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him, 2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition, 4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work; only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming, 9 Even him whose coming is by the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, 10 And in all deceivableness of unrighteousness, among them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe lies,
12 That all they might be damned which believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we ought to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because that God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and the faith of truth, 14 Whereunto he called you by our Gospel, to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and keep the instructions, which ye have been taught, either by word, or by our Epistle. 16 Now the same Jesus Christ our Lord, and our God even the Father which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every word and good work. Please notice that the information concerning the bad guy and his people is in Verses 6 through 11. It seems that Paul is saying that what is being withheld is the disclosure of this false god until "his time" (v. 6). Next, in Verse 7, this premise is easier to see in the chiasmus form as follows: "For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work; only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way." The individual that is withholding is God. Thus, the mystery of who this false god is is being withheld by God until he, God, takes him "out of the way." Post Script: Continuing the examination of the above chapter; please notice that Verses 6-8 are about the false god and Verses 10-12 are about his followers. The center verse is about where the false god gets his power, signs, and wonders. These three things are representative of a godhead structure similar to Rev. 13:2, 9:17-19, 16:12-14. Afterwards the Savior comes as noted in Rev. 16:15. |
|
