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Post by uscgvet on Jun 25, 2021 14:14:49 GMT -6
I found "out of the midst" where Dr. Ken Johnson was referencing it. It was actually quoted from: Victorinus: Commentary on the Apocalypse Chapter 15 From the Fifteenth Chapter 1. And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God. For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst. www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm----------------- Jeremiah 6:1 flee "out of the midst" of Jerusalem ...2 Thessalonians 2:7Jeremiah 6:22 is clear that this is a world wide event, not local to the middle east Jeremiah 6:29 is clear that the wrath is against the wicked as they don't escape, but we do... Zechariah 3:2 | 1 Thessalonians 5:3 | Zephaniah 2:1-3 |
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 25, 2021 14:33:25 GMT -6
Whoa!
I'm reading Victorinus' Commentary on the Apocalypse
Chapter 11
5. If any man will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies. That fire proceeds out of the mouth of those prophets against the adversaries, bespeaks the power of the world. For all afflictions, however many there are, shall be sent by their messengers in their word. Many think that there is Elisha, or Moses, with Elijah; but both of these died; while the death of Elijah is not heard of, with whom all our ancients have believed that it was Jeremiah. For even the very word spoken to him testifies to him, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations. But he was not a prophet unto the nations; and thus the truthful word of God makes it necessary, which it has promised to set forth, that he should be a prophet to the nations.
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Jeremiah 6:1 O ye children of Benjamin,
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Paul
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
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Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Are you guys seeing this?
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Post by boraddict on Jun 26, 2021 15:24:38 GMT -6
Whoa! I'm reading Victorinus' Commentary on the Apocalypse Chapter 11 5. If any man will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies. That fire proceeds out of the mouth of those prophets against the adversaries, bespeaks the power of the world. For all afflictions, however many there are, shall be sent by their messengers in their word. Many think that there is Elisha, or Moses, with Elijah; but both of these died; while the death of Elijah is not heard of, with whom all our ancients have believed that it was Jeremiah. For even the very word spoken to him testifies to him, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations. But he was not a prophet unto the nations; and thus the truthful word of God makes it necessary, which it has promised to set forth, that he should be a prophet to the nations. --------- Jeremiah 6:1 O ye children of Benjamin, --------- Paul Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: ----------- Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.Are you guys seeing this? At times the Savior uses a metaphorical language. In fact, I think he uses the metaphorical more than the literal. Also, he does not take the time to clarify much of what he says. For example: often the word "nations" does not mean nations in general but the twelve nations (tribes) of Israel. Please notice that Isaiah was sent down to us from 2700 years ago (Isa. 6:9) and it was not until the last 30 years or so that we have learned the words of Isaiah. So Jeremiah is like that wherein he has come down to us as one of our prophets; because, the Savior has given us prophets and their words are in the OT. If someone comes today and claims to be a prophet then it is easy to see that they are not a prophet; because, our prophets are in the OT. Like, our apostles are in the NT. So those who claim to be prophets and apostles in our time are simply lying (Rev. 2:2). We do however have great teachers but they do not provide prophecy like the prophets and apostles of old IMO. Secondly, the fire proceeding from the mouth of prophets is like the sward proceeding from the mouth of the Savior (Rev. 19:21); it is metaphor. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 27, 2021 10:26:02 GMT -6
Whoa! I'm reading Victorinus' Commentary on the Apocalypse Chapter 11 5. If any man will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies. That fire proceeds out of the mouth of those prophets against the adversaries, bespeaks the power of the world. For all afflictions, however many there are, shall be sent by their messengers in their word. Many think that there is Elisha, or Moses, with Elijah; but both of these died; while the death of Elijah is not heard of, with whom all our ancients have believed that it was Jeremiah. For even the very word spoken to him testifies to him, saying, Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations. But he was not a prophet unto the nations; and thus the truthful word of God makes it necessary, which it has promised to set forth, that he should be a prophet to the nations. --------- Jeremiah 6:1 O ye children of Benjamin, --------- Paul Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: ----------- Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.Are you guys seeing this? At times the Savior uses a metaphorical language. In fact, I think he uses the metaphorical more than the literal. Also, he does not take the time to clarify much of what he says. For example: often the word "nations" does not mean nations in general but the twelve nations (tribes) of Israel. Please notice that Isaiah was sent down to us from 2700 years ago (Isa. 6:9) and it was not until the last 30 years or so that we have learned the words of Isaiah. So Jeremiah is like that wherein he has come down to us as one of our prophets; because, the Savior has given us prophets and their words are in the OT. If someone comes today and claims to be a prophet then it is easy to see that they are not a prophet; because, our prophets are in the OT. Like, our apostles are in the NT. So those who claim to be prophets and apostles in our time are simply lying (Rev. 2:2). We do however have great teachers but they do not provide prophecy like the prophets and apostles of old IMO. Secondly, the fire proceeding from the mouth of prophets is like the sward proceeding from the mouth of the Savior (Rev. 19:21); it is metaphor. In many cases I would agree, but in this specific case, I don't think "nations" was used metaphorically in this verse. The word used was biblehub.com/hebrew/laggoyim_1471.htmGoy being the root is normally used to reference gentiles. In fact, I don't think any part of that verse in Jeremiah 1:5 was metaphorical. |
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Post by boraddict on Jun 27, 2021 13:11:30 GMT -6
It has been a very long time since I have opened the pages of Jeremiah; years perhaps. So I am going to set Chapter 1 to a chiasmus for a closer look.
1) Jer. 1:1, Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, of the priests in Anathoth, in the land of Benjamin
2) Jer. 1:2, to whom the word of the Lord came in the 13th year of Josiah, king of Judah (southern kingdom)
3) Jer. 1:3, the word of the Lord also came in the days of Jehoiakin the son of Josiah, and unto the 11th year of Zedekian the son of Josiah where in the 5th month Jerusalem was carried away captive (into Babylon)
4) Jer. 1:4, in the beginning of Jeremiah's call
5) Jer. 1:5, before he was born he was sanctified and called to be a prophet to the nations
6) Jer. 1:6, Jeremiah rebuffs that he is a child
7) Jer. 1:7, the Lord returns that Jeremiah will go and speak all that he is commanded
8) Jer. 1:8, the Lord tells Jeremiah to not be afraid of them
9) Jer. 1:9, the Lord put words in Jeremiah's mouth
10) Jer. 1:10, The Lord has set Jeremiah over the nations and kingdoms to root out, to pull down, to destroy, to throw down, to build, and to plant
9) Jer. 1:11, Jeremiah sees the rod of an Almond tree
8) Jer. 1:12, the Lord will hasten his word to perform it
7) Jer. 1:13, Jeremiah sees a seething pot the face thereof is toward the north. This is latter day prophecy with the angry northern kingdoms against Judah
6) Jer. 1:14, a latter day prophecy that has a type and shadow relationship to the Babylonian invasion
5) Jer. 1:15, this is a latter day prophecy that the kingdoms of the north will be called against the southern kingdom Judah. Babylon was not a kingdom of the north.
4) Jer. 1:16, God will utter his judgments against them for their wickedness, who have forsaken the Savior, they have worshiped other gods and the works of their own hands.
3) Jer. 1:17, arise and speak unto them
2) Jer. 1:18, I have made thee this day a defensed city, an iron pillar, and brazen walls (3 metaphors), against the kings of Judah and the people of the land (southern kingdom)
1) Jer. 1:19, they shall fight against thee, but I am with thee, to deliver thee
It appears from the first 3 parallels (vv. 1 & 19, 2 & 18, 3 & 17), Jeremiah is told to speak against the people of the southern kingdom, and they will fight him.
In parallels 4-8 Jeremiah appears to have been a young boy when he received his call, and is told that he was known to the Lord before he was born. That through Jeremiah God will announce his judgments against Judah. It appears that the nations (v. 5) in this chapter refer to the latter day northern nations (v. 15) that come against Judah.
This chapter an introduction to the work of Jeremiah that pertains to the Babylonian invasion as a type for the latter day invasion of the northern kingdoms. Clearly Jeremiah is a prophet for our time. The nations in Chapter 1 appear to be the latter day northern kingdoms that come against Judah in the shadow of the Babylonian invasion.
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Post by Gary on Jun 28, 2021 12:27:35 GMT -6
uscgvet , you are seriously on to something here. You can also cross-reference some of the details with Jer. 30. I see a pre-tribulation hint in Acts 15 (vv. 14–16). Vv. 16–17 are a quotation from Amos 9, but the same idea is found in Jer. 30:18–20. Jeremiah 30, in my view, is clearly end times. The historicist view could only be secondary at best.
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Post by Gary on Jun 28, 2021 13:20:42 GMT -6
Some very scattered thoughts:
This gives renewed significance to 12 years of Benjamin ruling over Israel and the last several years of two Benjamins vying for power.
Paul, an apostle to the Gentiles (nations). Of the tribe of Benjamin. Jer. 6:1: Flee/gather/seek refuge Benjamin OUT OF THE MIDST (same exact Greek word in the LXX as in 2 Thess. 2:7) before sudden destruction (v. 26), which is like a woman in labor (v. 24; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-4).
Trumpet is blown signifying the departure + looming destruction (Jer. 6:1; cf. 1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:51-53).
The wicked left behind (Jer. 6:29; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-4).
In the ESV:
Historicist/secular view is that this is merely about earthly Jerusalem and the historical Babylonian siege, but there are key end time details. This is further confirmed by Paul drawing on this passage when explaining end times. Also, Paul reminds us that the earthly Jerusalem is juxtaposed to the heavenly Jerusalem (our mother - heavenly Zion - Gal. 4). I can begin to imagine a double meaning in Jer. 6 with the whole Jerusalem above vs. below concept.
Now meditate on verses 17-19 from a New Covenant perspective (setting aside the historical view for a sec). If Paul is indeed drawing from Jer. 6. How might he interpret 17-19? This gives me goosebumps.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 28, 2021 19:02:59 GMT -6
It seems that Jeremiah spoke words against Judah (Jer. 1:15) , not only pre-Babylonian invasion, but pre-latter day invasion as well. However, in Chapter 2 we see that the words are not only against Judah, but the entire house of Jacob / Israel (Jer. 2:4). Yet, the emphasis is upon the southern kingdom Judah (Jer. 2:28). Keep in mind that the northern kingdom was gone captive via the Assyrians prior to Jeremiah coming upon the scene.
An interesting side note is that Jeremiah was in charge of the Arc of the Covenant when the invasion against Judah began. According to Ron Wyatt, it was Jeremiah that hid the Arc below the city and it is still there today. IMO, the Arc will come out when the war is heavily underway. That would be a sight to behold.
Chapter 2 appears to be a continuation of the Chapter 1 introduction IMO.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 29, 2021 6:55:24 GMT -6
Some very scattered thoughts: This gives renewed significance to 12 years of Benjamin ruling over Israel and the last several years of two Benjamins vying for power. Paul, an apostle to the Gentiles (nations). Of the tribe of Benjamin. Jer. 6:1: Flee/gather/seek refuge Benjamin OUT OF THE MIDST (same exact Greek word in the LXX as in 2 Thess. 2:7) before sudden destruction (v. 26), which is like a woman in labor (v. 24; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-4). Trumpet is blown signifying the departure + looming destruction (Jer. 6:1; cf. 1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:51-53). The wicked left behind (Jer. 6:29; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-4). In the ESV: Historicist/secular view is that this is merely about earthly Jerusalem and the historical Babylonian siege, but there are key end time details. This is further confirmed by Paul drawing on this passage when explaining end times. Also, Paul reminds us that the earthly Jerusalem is juxtaposed to the heavenly Jerusalem (our mother - heavenly Zion - Gal. 4). I can begin to imagine a double meaning in Jer. 6 with the whole Jerusalem above vs. below concept. Now meditate on verses 17-19 from a New Covenant perspective (setting aside the historical view for a sec). If Paul is indeed drawing from Jer. 6. How might he interpret 17-19? This gives me goosebumps. YES! Goosebumps! I agree with your breakdowns with subtle hints... It's my understanding that Jeremiah 30:23-24 states that these events are only against the wicked, not the saved. And these events are for the end times, not just 600BC or whenever when Nebuchadnezzar was alive and sacked Jerusalem back then. It's not just Jeremiah either. It's all of the OT Prophets, and the Torah... And, I think even all the historical books too (Kings, Chronicles, Samuel, etc.). They are all useful, or I should really say specifically designed... to extract details on how things will play out in the end. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 29, 2021 7:24:48 GMT -6
Just a quick reminder: Chapters and verse were added later.
Context of what you're reading is likely wider than the chapter you're in.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 29, 2021 7:59:38 GMT -6
It seems that Jeremiah spoke words against Judah (Jer. 1:15) , not only pre-Babylonian invasion, but pre-latter day invasion as well. However, in Chapter 2 we see that the words are not only against Judah, but the entire house of Jacob / Israel (Jer. 2:4). Yet, the emphasis is upon the southern kingdom Judah (Jer. 2:28). Keep in mind that the northern kingdom was gone captive via the Assyrians prior to Jeremiah coming upon the scene. An interesting side note is that Jeremiah was in charge of the Arc of the Covenant when the invasion against Judah began. According to Ron Wyatt, it was Jeremiah that hid the Arc below the city and it is still there today. IMO, the Arc will come out when the war is heavily underway. That would be a sight to behold. Chapter 2 appears to be a continuation of the Chapter 1 introduction IMO. and Chapter 3 a continuation of 2. It is my humble opinion that the northern kingdom was divorced so that Christ could marry her, the dispersion into the gentile nations because of Jeremiah 3:1. It is my humble opinion that Jeremiah 3:14 is the actual pre-1st seal Rapture event. God, I pray it so! On bended knee. Lord I pray that Jeremiah 3:14 is a possible allusion to the context Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 7:12-16. We are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9): Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: |
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 29, 2021 9:06:48 GMT -6
Some very scattered thoughts: This gives renewed significance to 12 years of Benjamin ruling over Israel and the last several years of two Benjamins vying for power. Paul, an apostle to the Gentiles (nations). Of the tribe of Benjamin. Jer. 6:1: Flee/gather/seek refuge Benjamin OUT OF THE MIDST (same exact Greek word in the LXX as in 2 Thess. 2:7) before sudden destruction (v. 26), which is like a woman in labor (v. 24; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-4). Trumpet is blown signifying the departure + looming destruction (Jer. 6:1; cf. 1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:51-53). The wicked left behind (Jer. 6:29; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-4). In the ESV: Historicist/secular view is that this is merely about earthly Jerusalem and the historical Babylonian siege, but there are key end time details. This is further confirmed by Paul drawing on this passage when explaining end times. Also, Paul reminds us that the earthly Jerusalem is juxtaposed to the heavenly Jerusalem (our mother - heavenly Zion - Gal. 4). I can begin to imagine a double meaning in Jer. 6 with the whole Jerusalem above vs. below concept. Now meditate on verses 17-19 from a New Covenant perspective (setting aside the historical view for a sec). If Paul is indeed drawing from Jer. 6. How might he interpret 17-19? This gives me goosebumps. @gary / Gary , Now do the same thing you did here with Jeremiah 4, keeping Paul's epistles in mind. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 30, 2021 14:02:50 GMT -6
I currently hold a differing view on the resurrection regarding 2Thes 2:6-7 then many do. Most (especially in the pre-Trib rapture view) see this as the Holy Spirit being removed due to the church being whisked away, while in other non pre-trib views see the restrainer is viewed as Michael or the Holy Spirit. The rendering of the verse in most translations seems to be a little "off" when considering he be taken. the LSV renders it The verb in the text the word for he be taken is ginomai: For consideration, (in the view I hold which is very close to pre-wrath) the text may read more precisely when utilizing ginomai as: Here is another passage of why I suspect 2 Raptures (Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath) 2 Samuel 2 2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. Rapture 1 (with Households/families - Jeremiah 3:14) [Jeremiah 6 - children of Benjamin]: 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. Rapture 2 [Psalm 18]: 4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul. More passages of why I suspect 2 raptures (1st a pre-1st Seal Rapture, 2nd a pre-wrath Rapture) ------------------ Theory: ------------------ Isaiah 11:10-12 contains 2 Rapture events. 1st Rapture Event: Pre-1st Seal Christ is the Banner or Ensign, the sign. Isaiah 11:10 -- This, IMHO, is the first Rapture event that may be pre-1st Seal based on the next two verses in Jeremiah. Jeremiah 4:6 -- This signal/ensign/sign is definitely BEFORE the invasion of the north. Jeremiah 6:1 -- The signal of fire/ensign/sign occurs BEFORE the invasion of the north. 2nd Rapture Event: Pre-Wrath Isaiah 11:11-12 Christ comes back as a sign a "second time" to gather "the remnant" from the 4 corners of the planet. Matthew 24:30-31 -- The sign of Christ in Heaven... then the gathering of the saints from the 4 winds which seemingly occurs sometime after "tribulation". Similar wording for both. I'm researching other places where it appears to be pre-wrath, like Psalms 18. ------------------ Analysis ------------------ I'll take a small liberty and utilize the ISV over the KJV. Isaiah 11:10 (ISV) At that time, as to the root of Jesse, who will be standing as a banner for the peoples, the nations will rally to him, and his resting place is glorious. The nations (Gentiles) will rally to him (the banner), as if it is a prelude to war. This aligns exactly to how Jeremiah 6:1-5 plays out. It's preparation for war. His resting place is glorious... hence... Heaven. It must be a Rapture event! ----------------- The "second time" in Isaiah 11:11-12 is quite obvious as a link to Matthew 24:30-31. Notice the gathering of a "remnant", not a full harvest...! I'm still researching the following chapters on pre-1st seal vs pre-wrath Isaiah 12-13-14 Jeremiah 50-51 Psalm 18 Habakkuk 2-3 Zechariah 2-5 Revelation 4-21 Joel 2 Matthew 24 Mark 13 Luke 21 |
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 7, 2021 9:23:38 GMT -6
One more suspect of 2 raptures (1. Pre-1st Seal; 2. Pre-Wrath)
Jeremiah 46 - Destruction/Overthrow of "the nations" (Jeremiah 46:1) by the anti-christ (Nebuchadnezzar).
Jeremiah 46:27 (1. Pre-1st Seal Rapture = Isaiah 11:10 = 2 Samuel 2:2-3)
27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jeremiah 46:28 (2. Pre-Wrath Rapture - Trib Saints/Remnant = Isaiah 11:11-12 = 2 Samuel 2:4)
28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the Lord: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 17, 2021 12:12:16 GMT -6
Notes:
Pre-1st Seal Rapture (entire household):
Noah and his ENTIRE HOUSEHOLD were told to go into the ark 7 days (7 years) ...BEFORE.... the flood (God's Wrath) came. Genesis 7:1-5
Slow Judgement for 40 days/nights
Pre-Wrath Rapture (remnant):
Lot and his household (2 daughters, wife turned to salt) were rescued with a warning (Mark of Beast) on THE SAME DAY that Sodom was destroyed.
Luke 17:29-30
Fast Judgement for 1 Day
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