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Post by venge on Mar 15, 2021 13:30:39 GMT -6
venge , mike , Agree, venge , I understand that no everyone holds that view. I was editing the post, and in that version, I tried to explain the part about the temple/ and red heifer that I think you might agree makes more sense. Not that you change your mind, but I think it sheds a lot more light on why people get excited when they hear updates and news about the 3rd temple or red heifer. *The red heifer is far far more imporant, and really what we should be watching. And yes, Mike, I do agree, that no doubt, sadly, there will be some people who think a Muslim/Jewish/Christian multi-faith temple is a good idea. I said let's pretend that we will be here, - what I should have said was, "Even if we all agree for this conversation that we will be here for the first half ..." Blessings, brothers. , If the red heifer is something we all should watch for, why didnt Christ or Paul teach that? |
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Post by boraddict on Mar 15, 2021 14:42:21 GMT -6
As you may know, the animal in scripture that represents the Savior is the 3 year old heifer (Gen. 15:9) that is often called an ox (Ezek. 1:10) or a calf and so forth.
It is for this reason that the children of Israel made the golden calf to represent the God of Israel; and got a spanking for it.
They do not realize that the sacrifice of their God has already been done; that Christ, represented in scripture as the heifer, has already been put upon the cross.
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Post by venge on Mar 15, 2021 18:56:26 GMT -6
I’m not aware of Christ symbolizing the heifer of Gen 15:9
I checked commentaries and no one suggested that. I don’t know why you think that bora
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Post by Natalie on Mar 15, 2021 19:01:52 GMT -6
This isn't about the verse in Genesis, but it's about the significance of the red heifer as it relates to Christ.
So, perhaps a different verse than the one in Genesis would make the point better.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 15, 2021 20:47:27 GMT -6
The Genesis verse (Gen. 15:9) was to show one example of the heifer in representation of Christ. Chapter 15 is about a covenant between Christ and Abraham wherein Abraham was instructed to place several animals and birds to represent several individuals. An easy one to identify is the goat that is rebellious Israel. When Israel is not in rebellion it is the sheep that in this chapter is a ram. So the covenant includes Christ, rebellious Israel, non rebellious Israel, and the Holy Ghost (the dove) and lastly the pigeon that I think are the angels. The dove is quite easy to identify because when Jesus was baptized the Holy Ghost was represented as the dove.
Basically, the Savior is represented throughout scripture as a heifer, or ox, or cow, or calf, etc. Please notice in Rev. 4:7 that the Savior is represented as a ox (compare to Ezek. 1:10). In both verses the Father is represented as the lion, the third beast is the man that is the angel, and the fourth is the eagle that is John. Each of these four individuals are stated in Rev. 1:1. Of course this is my opinion, but the analysis is pretty solid.
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 16, 2021 7:43:00 GMT -6
boraddict , Hello friend, I can definitely see your point and Natalie's about how the red heifer is symbolic of Christ and his redemptive work, and I would say that there are also some very interesting points regarding the animals, which would be a fascinating study. While it's not exactly clear what they might symbolize - we know that nothing in scripture is just random, or by chance. Two things to note. One is the thing about the pigeon. In many languages, there is literally only one word, because they are the same animal, maybe even same genus, if not same species. The reason that we have two words is due to the different roots for dove/pigeon that came into English from other languages, such as German, Latin and Greek. Dove is related to the name for the bird in one language, and pigeon is simply a root from another language, but it's the same bird. ----------------------- I would disagree with you re the goats representing rebellious Israel. Goats are also fully clean and acceptable for the Passover sacrifice [Korban Pesach] the highest command in Judaism, along with circumcision. Both yearling lambs and yearling goats were used and both were accepted, as long as all the other requirements were met = male, one year old, perfect, no blemishes or defects, etc - and this was clearly a picture of Christ, our perfect, spotless Pascal sacrifice. Also, we see even in the New Testment, that 2 goats were used at Day of Atonement, when the lots were drawn, and one was sacrificed and the other was sent free out into the wilderness to become the scapegoat.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 16, 2021 7:43:31 GMT -6
I thought I'd make a new thread for the discussion of the symbolism of the red heifer.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 16, 2021 7:57:44 GMT -6
My understanding of the living creatures in Rev 4:7, is that they are similar (or the same) as the creatures in Ezekiel. So, each creature has four faces. As they stand around the throne, John sees the four different faces as they face the throne in worship. An interesting thing that I had read is that tradition says that each tribe's banner had an image on it. The four tribes closest to the tabernacle (in the wilderness) had the images of an ox, a lion, an eagle, and a man. It was an earthly representation of the scene around God's throne. I've also heard that the four gospels can be represented by the four faces. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that each gospel portrays Christ in a way that can be represented by one of the faces. So, for example, in Mark, Jesus is shown as the servant, the ox. I can't remember which the others are. 
boraddict , how did you come to the conclusion that one of the creatures/faces represents John? And why the eagle and not the man? |
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Post by mike on Mar 16, 2021 9:11:57 GMT -6
My understanding of the living creatures in Rev 4:7, is that they are similar (or the same) as the creatures in Ezekiel. So, each creature has four faces. As they stand around the throne, John sees the four different faces as they face the throne in worship. An interesting thing that I had read is that tradition says that each tribe's banner had an image on it. The four tribes closest to the tabernacle (in the wilderness) had the images of an ox, a lion, an eagle, and a man. It was an earthly representation of the scene around God's throne. I've also heard that the four gospels can be represented by the four faces. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that each gospel portrays Christ in a way that can be represented by one of the faces. So, for example, in Mark, Jesus is shown as the servant, the ox. I can't remember which the others are.
boraddict , how did you come to the conclusion that one of the creatures/faces represents John? And why the eagle and not the man? I think we can derive this from Numbers 2 Notes/commentary from Albert Barnes |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 16, 2021 9:40:19 GMT -6
Thanks for looking that up, Mike!
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Post by boraddict on Mar 16, 2021 12:17:25 GMT -6
My understanding of the living creatures in Rev 4:7, is that they are similar (or the same) as the creatures in Ezekiel. So, each creature has four faces. As they stand around the throne, John sees the four different faces as they face the throne in worship. An interesting thing that I had read is that tradition says that each tribe's banner had an image on it. The four tribes closest to the tabernacle (in the wilderness) had the images of an ox, a lion, an eagle, and a man. It was an earthly representation of the scene around God's throne. I've also heard that the four gospels can be represented by the four faces. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that each gospel portrays Christ in a way that can be represented by one of the faces. So, for example, in Mark, Jesus is shown as the servant, the ox. I can't remember which the others are.
boraddict , how did you come to the conclusion that one of the creatures/faces represents John? And why the eagle and not the man? The eagle in scripture represents the saints of God and I concluded this sometime ago although I do not remember exactly how I did that. So please consider that the eagle in Rev. 12:14 is Christ and secondly that the saints, represented as the woman, is given two wings of this great eagle (Christ). His two wings are either the angel and John that have given us the Book of Revelation or the two witnesses from Chapter 11. In either case, the wings of the eagle represent servants of God in this verse. So in the above verse while it is quite clear that the eagle represents the Savior, his wings represent his two servants if not more (IMO). Next, please consider Matt. 24:27 wherein the "Son of Man" comes from the east. This verse helps us understand where the Savior is located when people say that he is in the desert and so forth (Matt. 24:23-26). That is, when people are looking for the Savior and say that he is here or there; he tells us in Verse 27 that we should know that he comes from the east. Also, that the eagles (Matt. 24:28 KJV) will be gathered to the carcase. As odd as that sounds, the Savior is referring to himself or something associated with himself as a carcase; and saying that the eagles will be gathered to that location. Thus, in this verse (24:28) the eagles are the saints of God. Following are those verses in their chiasmus form: Matt. 24:21-22, the tribulation and the days shortened Matt. 24:23-26, some say that Christ is in the desert Matt. 24:27, Christ will come from the east
Matt. 24:28, the eagles will be gathered to the carcase Matt. 24:29, after the tribulation the heavens are shaken Please notice that the above verses are telling us that Christ comes from the east and then Matt. 24:30 describes his coming and the gathering of his elect (Matt. 24:31). So it appears that the above verses have an association with Rev. 6 that while Rev. 6 is taking place then the people are looking for Christ (explained above) to which he tells us that the eagles will be gathered to the carcase as explained in Matt. 24:31 and Rev. 7. That is, it appears to me that the above verses (24:21-29) pertain to Rev. 6 followed by Verses 24:30-31 that link to Rev. 7. Also I would like to mention that the number 4 seems to be a number that is a verifier to us so that we know the message is from Christ. So there are not really 4 corners (Rev. 7:1-3) or 4 angels, but that the message is confirmed by the number 4; like 4 gospels and so forth. Likewise, the 4 beasts in Rev. 4 are not really 4 beasts but 4 individuals to signify again that the message contained is from Christ. These four individuals are outlined in Rev. 1:1. So in Ezekiel where the confirmation number is set to harmonize with the 4 in Revelation then the following exits: Ezek. 1:10 KJV As for the likeness of their faces they 4 had 1) the face of a manand 2) the face of a lion (on the right side) and they 4 had 3) the face of an ox (on the left side) they 4 also had 4) the face of an eagle(left side) 4, 3, 2, 1 (right side) (left side) eagle, ox, lion, man (right side) (left side) John, Lord Jesus, The Father, the angel (right side) Please notice that Lord Jesus (ox) is at the "right hand" of The Father (lion) Also, the angel that is "man" is to the left of the Father, and the "eagle" that is John is to the right of the Savior. This is all in sync with Rev. 1:1. John is at the right hand of the Savior and this is supported in that the eagles are the saints of God are at the right hand of the Savior. |
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