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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 19:01:43 GMT -6
venge I think we've had this dialogue once before. Although I understand where you are coming from, I ask that you consider another perspective. Not that I am saying what you spell is wrong, I just think its incomplete The woman who knowingly poses in a magazine designed for pornography is as guilty as the man viewing it. But your question was: First what I meant by the letter of the law and spirit of it can be relatively easily seen in the behavior of Talmudic Jews. At one point in life I had been around enough of them to understand this. In order to ensure the women are not an object of obsession to other men, they wear long clothing so as to not show any part of their skin, and a wig to cover their head/hair which is their beauty. I suppose one could live that way to ensure they have done all that they can to prohibit someone elses possible lustful desires. But I would ask if that actually does it or not. Some women have a look that certain men may want regardless of how well they cover their bodies. It is the heart of that man that is the issue. Now to being on the beach or a pool whether it be local/town or neighbor etc. I hope I do not offend any of my sisters here, but I will say it flat out...I think hairy legs and armpits are not attractive. Ive seen some and they make me look the other way. So if I am in a situation like that, regardless of how much clothing is not there, the fact of the matter is I am not looking for more than the one second that I did before. But for other men it may be something they like. How do you handle such a thing in a case like that? It back to the individual again in my estimation. AND Nowadays we cant even say this is all about men - it could a woman attracted to a woman who calls herself a man (and has a hairy body!) As a brother, believer, disciple of Christ before I put on or remove any clothing I have to consider my motive. If I am dressing in a way that I want others to look at my flesh, I am in sin (period). That is for me and how I look at it. I have been to places where the women are dressing for attention. My approach to this is simply look the other way, ignore and focus my affection on things not of this earth. I do realize not everyone is at the same place as me in their walk. In fact years ago I may not have been able to say this or accomplish what I am saying. Things like this take time in the life of a believer to ascend to. , I understand very well. The struggle is real. I'll be honest, there has been many times I would see a female jogger in her 20's run by in a sports bra and yoga pants or spandex and all my coworkers, myself included, would eye them up and talk about it. I am not longer that guy and strive to look away. When coworkers ask me about the girl, I normally just dont respond or change the subject. But my initial response in years past was just like men of the world and it takes a long time and discipline (for many like myself) to be able to ignore and look away from beautiful women. We all have weak sins and strong sins. Our strong sins are the ones we struggle with and many times, our spouses dont even know; but we know them. Our weaker sins happen not so often and we may ignore them because, well, they dont effect us as much. For everyone that has a strong sin, that is some else's weaker sin, and your weak sin may be some one else's strong sin. Example: In years past, my strongest sin I fought was lusting after women. My weakest sin would probably be harming others or stealing or something like that. For someone else, they may struggle with trying not to steal (which I find easy)...but they may find looking away from lust easy and I used to struggle. So we all have the same sins, but one man struggles where another finds it easy to cope. And TBH, I feel like sins drift down the DNA line cause if you met my daughters lol, no they dont lust they are under 10...but some others things I work on (anger)...I see in them already and it scares me lol It takes a lifetime to fertilize your tree, to drink water and take care of it, to grow fruit to maturity. Its so easy to take a day off and then a week and the bugs and fungus get to your tree and destroy it. You have to constantly keep watch over it and its hard but doable. I think we all want fruit in abundance. We all want to see ourselves as overcomers. But the reality is, though its possible, its hard and we fail alot more then what we want. But I have surpassed many struggles, so if I can do it...I know anyone can with God. And as soon as you defeat one (its always there and never goes away), you want to tackle the next one which can take a week or a month or a few years before you get past it. For those reading this, this may not apply to you, but I got past pornography, lust, worldly music, rated R movies (really anything with nudity, cursing and if they say OMG), and a host of other things in my past life all because God pushed me. I am still working on anger...that is a hard one for me. And I'd like to be more a servant for others. But I hope in time itll come. If you are struggling with things, I can only say the first thing I did was throw it out in the trash. We are called to be Holy...unspotted. I cant be Holy listening to Metallica. I cant be unspotted watching the Game of Thrones. Let's be real with ourselves. |
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 19:16:34 GMT -6
Do you think 2Cor 5 can address this? It appesrs to me that when our soul/spirit leaves this body we depart and are with the Lord. The form is not crystal clear. I think with other verses we can find that either a body of some sort could be a possibilty so could a "ghost" non-body...my brain hurts
1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 20:39:05 GMT -6
Do you think 2Cor 5 can address this? It appesrs to me that when our soul/spirit leaves this body we depart and are with the Lord. The form is not crystal clear. I think with other verses we can find that either a body of some sort could be a possibilty so could a "ghost" non-body...my brain hurts
1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.I dont read that as others have been taught in Church. The context is what we did in our flesh; good or evil. If we live in our flesh (the body), we are absent from the Lord. But we who live in our fleshly bodies full of sin dont want to live in it. We want to abstain from sin, we recognize it as a blemish. We are ashamed to have it. That is why we'd rather be with the Lord and not the flesh. That is why I think we have the answer in verse 9. I don't see this as a physical thing. I see Paul talking to us as fighting against our fleshly desire. When we are home in the body, Paul says we are away from the Lord. If this is physical...are we away from God today? Doesnt he dwell within us? Dont we have access to the throne room for prayer? While we are in this body, we do have the Lord. But Paul says while in the body we are away from Him. The only way I am aware that we can be away from God is when we are in our flesh. |
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 21:15:04 GMT -6
Venge maybe we can move this to a new thread if this topic continues?
I can see how you may see that. It is inique and valuable to us to view ourselves in such a manner daily. Dying to self, living for Christ (Php 1:20-21)
Paul is laying out how glorious it is to have the treasure of the knowledge of God in Spirit in a fallible carnal abode. We cant take the glory for any of it.
2Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us...11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh...16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal
Verse 16 & 17 seems to transition from flesh to spirit, but still differentiates physical and spiritual. This context continues into chapter 5. The break from 4 to 5 isnt introducing a new topic but continuing:
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
And on from there it continues. I think your view has much merit, but I think what some us learned from great teachers, or on own (both through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) is the context, providing the reader the perspective of focusing on future glory
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Post by venge on Dec 16, 2020 7:40:10 GMT -6
Venge maybe we can move this to a new thread if this topic continues? I can see how you may see that. It is inique and valuable to us to view ourselves in such a manner daily. Dying to self, living for Christ (Php 1:20-21) Paul is laying out how glorious it is to have the treasure of the knowledge of God in Spirit in a fallible carnal abode. We cant take the glory for any of it. 2Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us...11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh...16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternalVerse 16 & 17 seems to transition from flesh to spirit, but still differentiates physical and spiritual. This context continues into chapter 5. The break from 4 to 5 isnt introducing a new topic but continuing:
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. And on from there it continues. I think your view has much merit, but I think what some us learned from great teachers, or on own (both through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) is the context, providing the reader the perspective of focusing on future glory No need, lets get back on track with my OP. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Mar 11, 2021 0:09:34 GMT -6
I want to ask some of you in the Pre-TB community some questions that I do not understand. This isnt meant to be a pick and poke, argumentative topic. I want to stay away from that. This is a serious attempt to understand how these things penetrate religious articles on the internet and then wind up in Churches. I understand some of you may believe these things, have been taught or still are taught these things. I am not here to say you are wrong and I am right. I just want to know, where is the scriptural basis for it if it exists or are these things devised by man's mind? Any scriptural help would be appreciated in the following discourse. Thank you for anyone that takes time to help me understand how some of these things questions come into Church and possibly, where they come from. Hello brother, felling better lately, have my Diabetes in check, my cancer is gone and I am felling much better, so I am on the prowl. LOL. For the Kingdom of the Lord !! The Apostle Paul called it a "Mystery" and that comes from the Greek word Musterion, which basically means this, "Secret by God's Silence"/God closes the mouth. The Rapture was never intended for Israel, of course, so there would not nor should there be a theme about it in the Old Testament, unless God wanted to confuse Israel, and God is not the author of confusion, as we all know. If Israel had repented the Kingdom would have come in the 70 AD period, there would have been no need for a Church Age. But of course God knew they wouldn't repent, Jesus said as much when speaking about John the Baptists doing the exact same thing Elijah will do during the end times, but yet they still rejected his word, and of course Jesus the Messiah. So, the Rapture is not per se for Israel, however they will be Messianic Jews in the Rapture, like Paul, Peter etc. But Israel (the Wheat) will be on earth until the very end with the Wicked tares, Jesus told us that, we can see it in Rev. 14, the 144,000 - ALL Israel or the Wheat, and those God gives his Wrath unto are the Wicked tares, who will be bundled up (in the grave), and BURNED (judged) at a later date. So, this is why the "Rapture" is not a theme of the bible which is all about Israel, Paul, the Apostle called unto the Gentile did tell us about it via Epistles, but the problem with Epistles is they were never meant to be Thus saith the Lord, thus we only get one side of the letters, we do not have all of the correspondence, if we knew what the Thessalonians asked Paul, then we would have a much clearer picture of what he was telling them in 2 Thess. 2:3, I think its very clear he is telling them not to worry, that the DEPARTURE [of the Church] would happen before the Day of the Lord God's Wrath AND before the Anti-Christ comes to power. One would have to admit, they letters to Paul would help define the answer, like are we going to be here for the Wrath of God Paul? Or are we going to Depart to Heaven? I mean..........that would be a key question, I am sure I can read between the lines, because Paul points towards something and it is the Gathering unto Christ Jesus in verse 1, but others have a problem discerning it, and that is understandable since the KJV turned it into a DEPARTING of the Faith even though nowhere in the whole chapter is Faith spoken of !! I think of course we can't Marry the Lamb without being Judged, and that happens in Heaven before we return with Jesus in Rev. 19, thus in Rev. 4:4 we are shown to have the CROWNS, WHITE RAIMENT, and to sit at Gods Throne. These are all rewards promised unto the OVERCOMERS in Rev. 2 and 3 via the 7 Churches (Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21) In Rev. 5:9-10 we see the Redeemed in Heaven before the Seals are opened. We see the the Judgment seat in Rev. 20:4 specifically says that only those who refused the Mark of the Beast live and reign on earth with Christ 1000 years, this is because I think the Church who married the Lamb then came back with Jesus will go back to heaven and IMHO, help build the New Jerusalem, thus when it descends, it is thus adorned as the Bride of Christ, meaning we adorn the New Jerusalem like a dress so to speak. Rev. 11 is not a real time event, it covers 1335 days the Two-witnesses Ministry who show up at the 1335, then after they die the 3rd Woe (7th Trump) is told of coming, and VICTORY, and that is because the Two-witnesses pray down al the plagues of God, just like Moses brought forth the 10 Commandments, visually at least. This is why we are told of the coming 3rd Woe/7th Trump, even after they die at the 2nd Woe. You are on the right track here. He doesn't so much SIGN a Peace Treaty with MANY [Countries] so much as he AFFIRMS it, the word used there, and I did a study on it years back, but I will just paraphrase my findings, the Hebrew word (GABOR) used seems to say he is INSOLENT in his manner and FORCES a reworked agreement, in other words he AFFIRMS what is already in place, but with his own spin on the agreements (covenants in Hebrew simply means agreements). So, the Anti-Christ comes on the scene, and like Trump took three years to reach a deal with China, these kind of things are just not worked out overnight, it takes years in some cases, and we know Satan is a skillful and deceitful Demonic entity, he is not sitting around waiting, he has his plan not only in motion, but I say it has been in effect for at least 15-20 years. It is called the European Neighborhood Policy. It is am Agreement (treaties if you will) between the E.U. and every nation in the Mediterranean Sea Region, and it has tentacles, in that these nations all get money for "DOING CERATIAN THINGS RIGHT" kind of like the carrot and stick approach. This an be seem on Wikipedia, The E.U. has SIGNED AGREEMENTS with Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. And if you go on this page guess what the length of the agreements/deals are? They ran from 2007-2013 and from 2014 to 2020. This is the 7 Year Agreement's already in place, all the Anti-Christ will have to do when he comes to power is say, "THIS IS WHAT I DEMAND", you see, there are strings attached, the E.U. is passing out 15 Billion dollars to these nations, and Israel SO WANTS to be in the E.U. because their liberal leaders no doubt do not have the foresight to understand that the bible is not only true, but coming true each day. They don't need the money like the other nations, in their minds, they think of the United States and how Idaho is PROTECTED via their status as a state, they think of Hawaii, they say to themselves, if the E.U. allows us to join the European Union, no one will ever be able to bother us again, we will have a SUGAR DADDY PROTECTOR like Idaho an Hawaii !! This is why they have on blinders, they already play Soccer (Football) in the Euro Leagues, the Wiki page says Israel wants to join the E.U. They are in 7 YEAR SIGNED DEALS as we speak, thus al that needs to happen is The Rapture, then the Man of Son comes to power as the E.U. President, and something will happen (I think its the Gog ad Magog War), and Israel will be told by the E.U., we will be you protector, and as you see with these other Mediterranean Sea Region nations, they are at Peace with Israel (Israel will live in UNWALLED VILLIAGES) via the Abraham Accord Peace treaties of the Trump administration. So, it seems Israel and THE MANY are all in league with the European Union, God somehow wipes out the Armies of Russia, Turkey and Iran on the Mount of God, I do not have a clue how that happens, but it happens, maybe God does it supernaturally, or uses the Israeli Army, or maybe this is how the E.U. gains the regions FULL TRUST, either way, Israel and THE MANY (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia) all are deceived by this European Beast/Man of Sin. He will conquer not only Israel but the WHOLE REGION, Daniel 11:40-43 tells us that, it gives us ALL THE ACTION on a silver platter, it says he rolls through the COUNTRIES (Lebanon Syria) to get to Israel, then it says he is not allowed to conquer Moab, Ammon and Edom (and that just so happens to be Central and Southern Jordan, or the Mountain region of Petra and Bozrah, LOL, could this be any more evident? This is the Anti-Christ via the end times) then it says he will Conquer Egypt, Libya and I think it says Ethiopia, but back in the day that was much of North Africa. So, in other words, he conquers all of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline, plus the E.U creates a Nation on a map that look exactly like the Old Roman Empire in that it covers every square inch of the coastline. So the answer is BOTH. At that time Israel must be at peace with all of her neighbors. The Psalm 83 "WARS" took place from 1948-2009 or so, now via Iran, many of Israel's once foes see they have a common enemy, Iran. (by Proxy Russia and Turkey also) This is not necessarily the case. In Daniel Nebuchadnezzar was said to have conquered the WHOLE WORLD also, but we know he didn't do that. In these old testament texts they used words that spoke about the whole land (earth) being spoken of, I think in this case its speaking about conquering the WHOLE Mediterranean Sea Region, just like Rome did. The whole Western Hemisphere, IMHO, (the 1/3) will be in flames via the Rev. 8 Asteroid strike anyway. Russia, Iran and Turkey's Armies are null and void, the Americas are in CHAOS, and the Rapture (salt of the earth Christians) has taken place leaving the wicked running things. So, this EVIL MAN, has no foes in the Western World so to speak, its the E.U. and no other major power save maybe China, and they might be busy conquering in the Pacific Realm like Japan did when Germany was Blitzkrieging Europe in the 40s. I don't think he conquers the whole world, I think God's Judgments makes the World Powers that be much smaller and he probably just co-exists with China in his tyrant rule. Everyone confuses the 8th............there is no 8th Head or leader. The Scarlet Colored Beast is OF THE 7............AND IS AN 8TH. Now who can live that long? LOL, of course it has t be a Demonic Spirit. God gives us all the clues we need to figure this out via the DESCRIPTIONS of each Beast, but we are too busy seeing what we see as men do. The Scarlet Colored Beast is a DEMON who Satan placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region a long time ago, his goal was of course to DESTROY Israel, thus Apollyon is called the Destroyer. How do we know this is him? By reading Rev. 9, Apollyon is RELEASED from the Bottomless Pit AND he's called a King which solves all of the Riddles. In Rev. 12 we are told where the Red Dragon lives (no one gets this) via the SIGN IN HEAVEN, the sign is a CLUE telling us where Satan resides at, in Heaven, he comes before the Lord making accusations against us every day. Thus this 7 Headed Beast (the Seven Powers over Israel in the Mediterranean Sea Region whilst Israel was an entity) is shown as having SEVEN CROWNS on its 7 Heads, and this shows us who the Red Dragon is (as if we didn't know) because in Luke 4 we were told that Satan is over ALL THE KINGDOMS of the Whole World, so he is the King of Earth, so naturally, he is/was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome and he will be over the coming Anti-Christ Kingdom also. NEXT UP, we get Rev. 13, we see the CROWNS on the 10 Horns this time, because the Anti-Christ is over Europe (the 10 horns came up out of the FOURTH BEASTS HEAD, thus 10 (which is a stand in for completeness) means ALL of Europe at any moment in time, or the fulness of the E.U. however may nations that be. Thus his CROWNS are on the 10 Horns only, and he is one of the 7 Heads this Satan is OVER HIM.........That fits, we see in Rev. 13 that the Dragon gives him his Power !! Thus these CROWNS are used to DEFINE who is being spoke of in each situation, in juxtaposition to this 7 Headed Beast. FINALLY we have to go to Rev. 17 to find out who the Scarlet Colored Beast is. NOTICE: he has NO CROWNS via any description in Rev. 17 via the 7 Headed and 10 horned Beast, BUT.........he is called an 8th King !! WHY ? Because Apollyon is under Satan on this earth and in the Spirit realm via this earth, thus he can have NO CROWN on any kingdom via this earth in the Spiritual realm. This earth is Satan's DOMAIN, just like he told Jesus in Luke 4. Apollyon is not a PHYSICAL BEING so he can't have a physical kingdom on this earth like Babylon, Persia (I think he was the Demon who resisted Michael for 21 days in Dan. 10) Greece etc. Thus he can be a Demonic strongman over a region, as many are, but that doesn't put him over Satan on this earth, he's still under SAtan, and he has no physical kingdom o this earth, thus he has NO CROWNS on any portion of the 7 Headed Beasts description of him !! BUT..........He is OF THE SEVEN............And is an 8th !! He was placed by Satan over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, he tried to use Pharaoh t kill Israel, he failed, he was over Assyria and toted off the 10 tribes, he was over Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, then God locked him into the Bottomless Pit for the duration of the Church Age, whilst Israel was as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years. And then at the 1st Woe Apollyon is released, he again is placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region to try and DESTROY Israel, but he will again fail, of course. He however is an 8th King, but not of this earth, thus he has NO CROWNS via the 7 Headed Beast but he is OF THE 7.............and is AN 8TH. He will then be allowed to kill the Two-witnesses. The Beast tat suffers the Mortal Wound is the FIGURATIVE 7 Headed Beast, it went away for 2000 some odd years with Apollyon. I think I explained this in the other Revelation thread TBH, no use in redoing that one. I think I will leave it here and finish later, getting a little long, these are probing questions that take a bit of time to answer in full. God Bless. |
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Post by venge on Mar 11, 2021 7:33:56 GMT -6
rondonmonson , Thank you for providing feedback. Let me reply to Question #1. I did not see a reply in there on the specifics of my question. Basically, if our judgment and reward is given to us in Rev 4/5, what is the judgment and reward given to all believers in Rev 11? Response to Question #2. But where does the Bible say the AC signs a covenant with Israel? Or any specifically named country? Response to Question #3. According to you, the AC will not rule over the whole world. So why do people still say that on various websites including Unsealed.org Response to Question #4. You are confusing. You said: First you said there is no 8th, then you say there is an 8th. I took a look at Revelation, and it says: So there is an 8th, which is the beast itself. If the 8th is of the 7, and its a number that progresses after 1-7 following the same order, what were the 7 previous? The 2 previous verses to this say: So the 8th, following the previously 7, is a beast that is made up of a mountain (kingdom) and a King. Following the same format as the previous 7 before it; as it is the 8th. Scripture also says, but the beast was not. He died and all 7 heads died with him for him to be "was and is not". That would have to mean that the beast with 7 heads was destroyed. If Rome was the 6th head, there would come another that would rise up after Rome and also be destroyed. That final 7th head would slay the beast and it would be "was and is not". As John is looking into future events, it appears that same beast who "was and is not" came back to life. One of the 7 heads that had the death wound wasnt fully fatal. That allowed the beast to still have life. Its not any of the 7 previous heads that has life, but the beast itself - which becomes the 8th Kingdom which also has a King who reigns over it just as the previous 7 all had.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 11, 2021 9:21:23 GMT -6
It seems that the riddle: "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17:8) has a parallel in: "the Lord which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Rev. 1:8).
In the comparison:
1) the beast that "was" relates to the Lord which "is"
2) the beast that "is not" relates to the Lord "which was"
3) the beast that "yet is" relates to the Lord "which is to come"
So if we consider the past, present, and future then 1 is the past, 2 is the present, and 3 is the future. Secondly, the topic seems to be "he that was/is alive" as follows:
1) the beast that was alive relates to the Lord that is alive
2) the beast that is not alive relates to the Lord which was alive
3) the beast that yet is alive relates to the Lord which is yet to come
So in the comparison:
1) the past wherein the beast was alive is to the Lord that is alive and in this comparison the topic must pertain to physical life; because, the Lord has victory over death and is alive therefore the beast was physically alive but died. Not that the beast has died yet, but prior to the application of the riddle here in Chapter 17 the beast will have died as alluded to in Rev. 13:3. So in the riddle of Rev. 17:8 the beast is physically dead. This dead beast is the beast of Rev. 13:1.
2) the present wherein the beast is not alive is to the Lord which was alive and this again pertains to the physical life. Lord Jesus was alive here upon the earth and likewise the beast in the riddle of Rev. 17:8 was alive but is not. This simply reaffirms that the beast was alive (1) and is physically dead and remains physically dead (2) as the central emphasis of the riddle; similar to the Lord was also alive but died the physical death. That is, the center of the riddle reaffirms that both have died the physical death. So the beast was alive (1) and remains dead (2) whereas the Lord is alive (1) but was dead (2). Again, the riddle of Chapter 17 has it's application after the rise of the beast as noted in Rev. 13:1 and not Rev. 17:3. Because, the reference to the death of the beast is in Chapter 13 at Rev. 13:3 and not in Chapter 17. Therefore the beast being referenced in the Chapter 17 riddle is the Verse 13:1 beast.
3) the future is the Rev. 17:3 beast whereas the past and present were the Rev. 13:1 beast. That is, after the rise of the beast (v. 13:1) he is then killed as stated in the riddle (1) and remains dead (2) and then the second beast (v. 17:3) rises to become the 8th (Rev. 17:11) in fulfillment of the riddle. So the beast that "is yet alive" (3) that is to the Lord that "is yet to come" (3) pertains to the second beast; because, the first beast was killed (1) and is not alive (2). In other words, the first beast does not come back to life nor does he resurrect; because, he does not have the power to do that kind of work; only the Lord has the power to bring back to life or resurrect. The beast of 13:1 is killed (1) and remains dead (2) and he is the 7th beast (Rev. 17:10) that remains for just a short period of time and is followed by the eighth beast (3). That is, the Lord does not call the Verse 13:1 beast back from the dead but he, as the 7th beast, is followed by the eighth that is the Verse 17:3 beast.
I have worked on the 17:8 riddle numerous times and this is the correct interpretation (IMO).
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Mar 11, 2021 14:58:14 GMT -6
rondonmonson , Thank you for providing feedback. Let me reply to Question #1. I did not see a reply in there on the specifics of my question. Basically, if our judgment and reward is given to us in Rev 4/5, what is the judgment and reward given to all believers in Rev 11? Response to Question #2. But where does the Bible say the AC signs a covenant with Israel? Or any specifically named country? Response to Question #3. According to you, the AC will not rule over the whole world. So why do people still say that on various websites including Unsealed.org Response to Question #4. You are confusing. You said: First you said there is no 8th, then you say there is an 8th. I took a look at Revelation, and it says: So there is an 8th, which is the beast itself. If the 8th is of the 7, and its a number that progresses after 1-7 following the same order, what were the 7 previous? The 2 previous verses to this say: So the 8th, following the previously 7, is a beast that is made up of a mountain (kingdom) and a King. Following the same format as the previous 7 before it; as it is the 8th. Scripture also says, but the beast was not. He died and all 7 heads died with him for him to be "was and is not". That would have to mean that the beast with 7 heads was destroyed. If Rome was the 6th head, there would come another that would rise up after Rome and also be destroyed. That final 7th head would slay the beast and it would be "was and is not". As John is looking into future events, it appears that same beast who "was and is not" came back to life. One of the 7 heads that had the death wound wasnt fully fatal. That allowed the beast to still have life. Its not any of the 7 previous heads that has life, but the beast itself - which becomes the 8th Kingdom which also has a King who reigns over it just as the previous 7 all had. Rev. 4 and 5 = the Rewards of the Raptured Church, this is why they are shown to have Crowns and Raiment's on and sit amidst God's Throne. The Old Testament Saints AND the Martyrs of the 70th week tribulation period are both raised after Jesus returns with his Church (us) on White Horses, see Rev. 20:4, that is the Rev. 11 Judgment. Just like Rev. 16:9, Rev. 11 Wrath given to God's enemies, Rev. 14:17-20s Winepress of God's Wrath via the sickle that is thrust in and the Rev. 19 Marriage Feast Judgment of the Wicked, are ..........."ALL THE EXACT SAME EVENT"............So, of course we are Judged and found with the blood covering so that we Marry the Lamb. Israel already married to God, long ago. They will e judged at the end, along with the 5 Virgins who tarried and missed the wedding. The wicked will be judged 1000 years later. Notice it only says the Prophets and Righteous will be judged in Rev. 11:18, but the Wicked will be DESTROYED. It doesn't say, but we know the Wicked will be judged at the 2nd Resurrection, 1000 years later. (#2) Daniel 9:27 says HE (then prince that will come) will sign a Covenant (Agreement) with MANY. Not just one, but MANY. We can see thus theme run its course in all of Daniel. Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes(Jesus); but he shall be broken without hand(By the spoken word of the Sword). Dan. 9:27 And he(A.C.) shall confirm the covenant with MANYY for one week(7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause(he bullies the Jewish High Priest into STOPPING Jesus Worship in the Temple after Israel REPENTS) the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(The High Priest/False Prophet then places the AoD, the Image of the E.U. President in the Temple), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind(Anti-Christ), with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries(THE MANY), and shall overflow and pass over(He goes through Syria and Lebanon, maybe even Northern Jordan to get to Israel, of course, SEE NEXT VERSE tat affirms this thought process). 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land(Israel), and MANY countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon (Central and southern Jordan or the Petra/Bozrah Mountainous area). 42 He(A.C.) shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. So, THE MANY is a theme that runs through Daniel, one has to dig it out however. It is not just Israel that signs an Agreement (Covenant) it is the E.U. and MANY NATIONS, thus they miss the fact that the E.U. and Israel have a Treaties for 7 years as we speak. (#3) I don't say he WILL NOT per se. I point out that in other verses the bible says the SAME EXACT THINGS about other Kings when the verses cited are simply talking about the WHOLE EARTH (Ground) being spoken of. FOR INSTANCE, SEE BELOW:Dan. 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. We see above that both Nebuchadnezzar AND Greece were said to have ruled over ALL THE EARTH, the verse about Greece seems to indicate this a little stronger than the verse about Nebuchadnezzar, but nevertheless, the point is ALL THE EARTH in this instance is of course not the WHOOE WORLD, not even China and India were ruled in full by Greece. So, in this instance, ALL THE EARTH means all the Ground being referenced. BUT........that doesn't mean the Anti0Christ will no rule ALL THE EARTH, I just don't think he will myself personally, I think he will rule Europe and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Scriptures I point out above show that the WHOLE WORLD/Earth, doesn't always have to mean the entire world. So, either can be a reasonable point of view, tbh. If we take into account that 1/3 of the earth is going to be in flames, I don't think anyone will be seeking to RULE that portion of the world which is ablaze tbh. (#4) There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a Head and a King. In the 7 Headed Beast imagery we see 7 Nations/Powers or 6 Nation Powers and a MAN POWER in conjunction with the European Union, who rule over or have Dominion over Israel AND the Mediterranean Sea Region, the reason I think the Fourth Beast is said to conquer the WHOLE EARTH (Land being spoken of) is that Rome and the Anti-Christ Beast both conquer every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Region, whereas the other Beasts were more Eastern Centric so to speak, but that is just my thought process. So, we have ONLY SEVEN HEADS that rule over Israel, you wouldn't call Satan an 8th Head would you? Even though is is shown to be a Beast who rules over the 7 Heads via his 7 crowns, thus he is a sorta "KING" also right? But he's not a 9th or an 8th head either, and neither is the Scarlet Colored Beast Apollyon. Just like Satan is a king over this earth in that this earth is his kingdom, Luke 4 tells us that, likewise the Bottomless Pit is Apollyon's Kingdom. But the Bottomless Pit Kingdom has nothing to do with the 7 Headed Beast that has rule over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region does it? No more than the United States even though it has been a World Power for 50 years has any part in BEASTING over that area, thus we are not an 8th Head. The Ottoman Empire was not an 8th Head because Israel was as Dead Men's Bones when they ruled the area, and Israel was not a Nation under British rule either, thus there are only 7 Heads that RULE over Israel AND the Mediterranean Sea Region (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece.........WHO HAD ALL FALLEN when John wrote Revelation...........Rome who still WAS.......And the coming Anti-Christ who will Conquer Israel and THE MANY as I show above to become the Mediterranean Sea Region BEAST RULER once again. Thus the 7 Head Beast which has been dormant for nigh 2000 years will be brought to life again, The Mortal Wound is HEALED. Neither Satan nor Apollyon are physical human being running a Kingdom on this earth per se, so when we speak about physical kingdoms over Israel, we have to stay within the "Physical Realm", we can't say Apollyon is an 8th Kingdom Head and thus Satan is a 9th Kingdom Head. They BOTH are kings, Satan over the whole earth and Apollyon over the Bottomless Pit, but neither one is a PHYSICAL HEAD (Earthly Kingdom) over the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel. Thus Apollyon can be OF THE 7 (just like Satan is) and be an 8th King WITHOUT being an 8th Head (Physical Earthly Kingdom over the Region). Beasts simply means one who has Dominion or Power to rule over, thus one could say Satan is an 8th Power and Apollyon is a 9th power in the Spirit World over the region, but there are only 7 PHYSICAL HEADS. This is the riddle, God made it a complex riddle on purpose, remember, Daniel had no clue what he was being told, God wanted all these things SEALED UP until these end times, so He gave us these deep riddles that can only be understood NOW and via the holy spirits revealing these deep truths to those God sees as seeking His truths via prayer and studies, like Daniel in Daniel 9 was shown by Gabriel things to come because he was a praying man. So, BEASTS or POWERS can be Physical and Spiritual, there are only 7 Heads on this Physical 7 Headed Beast, but there are Spiritual Forces that rule also. WE KNOW THIS INTUITVLY, yet we over analyze this, IMHO. Out of the THREE BEASTS shown unto us in Revelation, in Rev. 12, 13 and 17, TWO are Demonic in Nature and ONE is Physical in nature, thus only the Anti-Christ is ONE OF THE HEADS...........The other two are Demonic Spiritual Powers. Satan is over the whole earth in the Spiritual realm, and Apollyon has been appointed to be over Israel AND the whole Mediterranean Sea Region in the Spiritual world also. The 7 Headed Beast is ALL PHYSICAL in its DESCRIPTION. Satan and Apollyon are Spirit Entities, who can be OVER the 7, but cant be an 8th because they are not a Physical Human Being leading a Nation. The 8th is not a Mountain, NOTICE, there are only 7 Mountains, not 8. The bible simply speaks about a Mortal Wound to the Figurative Seven Headed Beast, it went away for nigh 2000 years when it had only 6 Heads (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and lastly Rome thus the WOUND), the coming Anti-Christ will make this FIGURATIVE BEAST come back into being(Heals the WOUND), over the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel when he conquers the Region, after the Rapture, at the 1260 Event. Apollyon WAS..............IS NOT.............YET IS. |
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Post by venge on Mar 11, 2021 19:08:08 GMT -6
rondonmonson , You still did not answer my questions. I will repost them. Question #1. I did not see a reply in there on the specifics of my question. Basically, if our judgment and reward is given to us in Rev 4/5, what is the judgment and reward given to all believers in Rev 11? You gave me the reason why you believe Rev 4/5 is the rapture, but you did not answer my question that is the judgment and reward. What is the judgment and reward in Rev 11? Only 1 reward and judgment exist and it is only mentioned in Rev 11, not Rev 4 or 5. How can there be 2 bema seats and 2 rewards? If you place the bema and reward in Rev 4, why did John put it in Rev 11? Response to Question #2. But where does the Bible say the AC signs a covenant with Israel? Or any specifically named country?Judging by your reply, it doesnt exist. It just says "many". Then why do people say he signs an agreement with Israel if the Bible doesnt state that. If the wording doesnt exist, let is stricken it from our minds. I will reply to question 3 and 4 tomorrow.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Mar 11, 2021 21:30:30 GMT -6
rondonmonson , You still did not answer my questions. I will repost them. Question #1. I did not see a reply in there on the specifics of my question. Basically, if our judgment and reward is given to us in Rev 4/5, what is the judgment and reward given to all believers in Rev 11? You gave me the reason why you believe Rev 4/5 is the rapture, but you did not answer my question that is the judgment and reward. What is the judgment and reward in Rev 11? Only 1 reward and judgment exist and it is only mentioned in Rev 11, not Rev 4 or 5. How can there be 2 bema seats and 2 rewards? If you place the bema and reward in Rev 4, why did John put it in Rev 11? Response to Question #2. But where does the Bible say the AC signs a covenant with Israel? Or any specifically named country?Judging by your reply, it doesnt exist. It just says "many". Then why do people say he signs an agreement with Israel if the Bible doesnt state that. If the wording doesnt exist, let is stricken it from our minds. I will reply to question 3 and 4 tomorrow. (#1) I answered it, it seems you do not understand my point in full. There is a Rapture, then a Marriage to Jesus during the 70th week while the 70th week happens. Then the Church comes back with Jesus (see Rev. 19, its very clear) who will defeat Satan, the Anti-Christ and all his minions at that point in time, Jesus will save they 3-5 million Jews in the Petra/Bozrah area (144,000), he will of course raise those Old Testament Jewish Saints at the very end AND all of the Martyrs of the 70th week, they are the ones that get Judged at that time (Rev. 20:4). This EXPLAINS how the Church Saints come back with Jesus in Rev. 19 and the Tribulation Martyrs who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast get Judged later in Rev. 20:4.IMHO, people try to hold on to the very end to old understandings, even when faced with facts that disprove those points. We are humans after all, and we gained the Sin Nature from Adam and Eve. We tend to not listen well, and talk too much.....IN GENERAL......Its a fault of 90 percent or more of human beings, probably 100 percent start out that way. It is what it is. (#2) In showed you the exact verses, that is all I can do brother. The bible is not going to spell out names and dates. I showed you who the MANY are via the Bible and explained that the HE in Rev. 9:27 is the Little Horn. The He is not Jesus Christ. |
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Mar 11, 2021 23:33:11 GMT -6
I want to ask some of you in the Pre-TB community some questions that I do not understand. This isnt meant to be a pick and poke, argumentative topic. I want to stay away from that. This is a serious attempt to understand how these things penetrate religious articles on the internet and then wind up in Churches. I understand some of you may believe these things, have been taught or still are taught these things. I am not here to say you are wrong and I am right. I just want to know, where is the scriptural basis for it if it exists or are these things devised by man's mind? Any scriptural help would be appreciated in the following discourse. FINISHING OFF THE ABOVE........OR BELOW: Rev. 1 is Jesus in Eternity AND the things which the Disciples had SEEN...........Rev. 2 and 3 are the Church Age WHICH ARE..........Everything after Rev. 4 are the things that will be HEREAFTER. Rev. 4 and 5 are the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened, so before the 1260 middle of the week event. Rev. 6 is Jesus opening the Seals, IMHO, just after the 1290 and just before the 1260 event, I know its just before the 1260, In cant prove its just after the 1290, BUT.....The Jews Fleeing Judea (144,000) in Rev. 7 kind of proves that to be the case, we are being given "PANORAMIC SNAPSHOTS" of the 7 Years of Jacobs Troubles on earth, and what is going on at they same interval in Heaven fir 7 years. Its flashpoints of two episodic events that cover the same time period. We see the 3-5 million Jews fleeing to the Mountains in Rev. 7, AND we see the Church Age Saints who cam out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age tribulation, IN HEAVEN, in Rev. 7:9-16. Then we FLASH BACK DOWN to earth to see the First Judgments on earth (Trumps). Rev. 8, 9, 15&16 are the COMPLETE JUDGMENTS of God's Wrath on this earth which cover the 42 months of God's Wrath. So, Rev. 16 ends it all, look at what the Angel says, IT IS DONE !! It is now over. These four chapters complete God's Wrath. Thus, Revelation 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citation Chapters that all happen at or at about the same time as those four chapters. The exceptions being Rev. 14 and 19 cover 7 years in full. Rev. 11 starts out 75 das before the 1260 event (Trumpet Judgments begin in Rev. 8) and in Rev. 19, some of the events happen after Jesus' return and defeat of Satan, by mere days maybe it overlaps the millennial reign, MAYBE, its not 100 percent there, Jesus could Judge the Anti-Christ and False Prophet on the same day he kills them and then cast them into hell, if so, Rev. 19 wouldn't extend into the New Millennium at all. The 7th Trump is the 7 Bowls seen in Rev. 16, the 3rd Woe is the 7 bowl Vials also. Read Rev. 8:13, it clearly says the last three trumps ARE the Three Woes. In other words, the Rev. 11 Trump IS the 7 Bowls, but we do not get the DETAILS of the Bowl Judgments unto Rev. 16. Just like we hear about the 2nd Woe also in Rev. 11 but get NO DETAILS there either, we have to turn to Rev. 9 to get the Details of the 2nd Woe, because Rev. 11 is not about the Judgments per se, its about the 1260 days of the Two-witnesses ministry on this earth, in full. Nothing more, nothing less, thus it is not in Chronological order at all. It starts 75 days before Rev. 8 at the 1335 event, which is 1335 days BEFORE the 2nd Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS. Backing up, Rev. 10 is a flashforward to the very end and says after the 7 THUNDERS (Trumps IMHO) that time (as we know it) will be no more. Rev. 12 and 13 both start at the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments, Satan goes after the fleeing Woman, and the Anti-Christ becomes THE BEAST by attacking Jerusalem when the Asteroid strikes (DOTL/1260). So, these both cover 1260 days starting with the 1260 event. Rev. 14 is "THE HARVEST" chapter. The Church is seen as Raptured in a FLASHBACK in verse 14, otherwise we see both the Wheat and the Wicked Tares will be harvested at the VERY END, and Jesus stated in a parable that the Wheat and the Tares would grow together until the very end. So we see THREE HARVESTS in Rev. 14. Rev. 17 and 18 go hand in hand, both also start with the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments. The Harlot is ALL False Religion of all time, but in Rev. 17 God says He is go9ng to JUDGE the Harlot, and in Rev. 17:16 we see she is killed off. In Rev. 17:17 we see God says he placed it in their hearts to DO HIS WILL. Thus, like Pharaoh, the Anti-Christ does God will via his own wicked heart. He so desires to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD he kills off Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. all other religions, and thus he JUDGES the other False Religions for God !! Jesus will wipe out Beast Worship upon his return. Amen. In Rev. 18 we see the Judgment of this evil, wicked World, not ONE CITY named Babylon, nor New York, nor Jerusalem etc. but God Judges this whole Wicked System He calls Babylon the Great in Rev. 16:19. We know who are defeated in Rev. 16:19 by looking back to the 6th Vial and those whom thus participated in the Armageddon War, it says the THREE DEMON SPIRITS Gathered the Kings of the WHOLEV WORLD to Battle against God, and as we see in Rev. 16:19, Jesus puts a hurting on those cowards once and for all, then God calls them Babylon the Great. We know Babel means CONFUSION, so Babylon is Satan's Dark Kingdom in this world, where he so confuses mankind that they do a very strange thing, they fight against their own loving Creator !! You can't get any more confused or deceived than that my friends. The whole Rev. 18 description surrounds this world getting pelted by God's Judgments over a 42 month period of time. When it says in verse 2 that Babylon has become a dwelling place for Demons, well, that just shows the timing I am speaking about (the 1260 middle of the week/Rev. 8 Trumps) is spot on. When is Satan cast down unto earth? In the middle of the week, we see that referenced in Rev. 12, he chases the Woman for 1260m days !! Thus Rev. 18:2 is only describing this earth as now being the home (Babylon) of Satan and his Demons, and even Apollyon I might add has been freed. In Rev. 18:4, this, IMHO, is God telling the Jews to Flee Judea (Rev. 7), lest they partake in Babylon (Wicked Worlds) sin, and thus partake in her Plagues also !! All the prose about the Rich Merchants is basically God describing mankind's state of mind in his STUNNING RECOGNITION that his dear world (Babylon) has now fallen to pieces via God's Judgments over this 42 month period of time. The Asteroid that hits will destroy 1/3 of the worlds trees, seas and drinking waters, blot out the Sun and Moons lights, the Anti-Christ murders 1/4 of all mankind (2 billion people) and thus the MERCHANTS HATE THAT don't they? In spirit. God knows their hearts, they TRUSTED in money, not in God, so God is showing their hearts desire to be FOLLY with His prose. I don't think God's has a pen out quoting people, He just knows their hearts. I don't think God quotes anyone in Rev. 6 where it says these men cry out about the Lambs Wrath, we just see their hearts which God KNOWS. Likewise God isn't quoting the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal who cry out for vengeance, any more than He was quoting Abel whose blood cried out to God, it is Just God KNOWING ALL THINGS at all times, knowing their hearts desires. The reason I go into this, we do not recognize God all we should, as living in AL TIME at once, thus we get many TIMING ISSUES WRONG, because we say WOOOOOO MAN, those people under the Altar at the 5th Seal wanted Vengeance, thus they are already dead by Seal #5, when in reality, the SEALS DO NOTHING, thus no one has died yet, we do not take into account God lives in ALL TIMES AT ONCE and can thus make that pronouncement before they even die !! And thus we can't see that the Seals are NOT ACTIONABLE, because we se an ACTION here by God. (Or think we do, LOL). So, we see God says in Rev. 18:8 that Babylon will be destroyed and judged in ONE DAY, and in Rev. 18:10 we see that Babylon will be judged in ONE HOUR. So, again we jump to conclusions that we shouldn't. Both show us that Go's Judgments are 42 months. We know the DOTL is nor ONE DAY but a Judgment of 42 months, we can see that via many actions. Then in Rev. 17:12 we see that the Kings serve ONE HOUR with the Beast, and we know the Beast rules for 42 months or 1260m days, so both of these are clues that Babylon is destroyed over a 42 month period of time. Rev. 19 of course covers all 7 years like Rev. 14 does. Rev. 20, 21 and 22 are the 1000 year reign and New Jerusalem/Ever after. The last thing I said before I started answering this question tonight was......I AM GOING TO BE BRIEF TONIGHT.......   Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATIONS on this earth, so even though PEOPLE have taken over the 70th week via the term TRIBULATION, I have learned how to delineate all the different subtexts. The Church Age is some 2000 odd years of Tribulation. The 70th week is 7 years of Tribulation, even though the church has been raptured, other will come unto Christ and will have to endure this 7 year period of time. Lastly, there will be a 3.5 year period of time that is known as Jacobs Troubles which will be GREATER than the other two periods troubles as per its INTENSITY, but not GREATER in length than the Church Ages 2000 some odd year period of time, as in 2000>7. So, WRATH has its own TROUBLES, I mean Israel/144,000 (3-5 million Jews) will be living in the Mountains for 3.5 years. To those modern day peoples used o air condition, LOL, tat will be troubles. No Steak and Fast Foods, they will probably get some sort of Mana from Heaven, and/or some Lambchops etc. The Wrath of God starts at the 1260 via the Trumpet Judgments, and the Anti-Christ uses this CHAOS to go forth conquering on the same day. I think I answered this in full in the other thread tbh. NO........The Seals are not Judgments, they are Prophetic utterances by Jesus. He leads the E.U., there may not even be any semblance of the United States by that time, the Rapture will take away Americas soul, then the Asteroid STRIKES !! Rev. 12, he chases the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days. Believe it or not, Rev. 12:17 PROVES the Pre Trib Rapture 100 percent. If people will just open their eyes to God's truths. A remnant is what? A small part of something that is LEFT......isn't that right? So, if I can prove that this REMNANT can't be Jews, and thus it can only be Gentiles (Gentile Church) and its called a REMNANT wouldn't that mean the Church is not on this earth? (ANSWER YES...........if I can prove it can not be Jews) Here goes. In Rev. 12 we see that Satan TURNS from trying to go after the Woman (Israel) when he understands God is protecting her, thus he gets ANGRY and goes after the REMNANT of HER SEED, which have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ. (DO YOU SEE IT? Its there). The above proves the Remnant con only be the Gentile Church. The 1/3 who Repent (Zechariah 13:8-9) Flee Judea we see God PROTECTS in Rev. 12, so this Remnant Satan goes after cant be them, because he cant get at them and gets angry. The 2/3 of the Jews who refuse to REPENT (Zechariah 13:8-9) also can't be this so called Remnant, because the scriptures are pretty clear, they have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ, so it can't be the 2/3 which God says will PERISH or DIE in Zechariah 13:8-9. So, who does that leave to be "THE REMNANT" ? Lets see, who is the Remnant (Church not in Heaven during the tribulation period) of HER (Israel's) SEED (Jesus is her SEED so says Paul in Galatians 3:16, and he said not unto SEEDS as of MANY but as of ONE which is Christ Jesus !! So, the REMNANT of Jesus' Church is and can only be the Gentile Church who come unto Christ Jesus AFTER the Rapture. There can be NO REMNANT Jews via those REV. 12 verses, there is a Remnant (1/3) of Jews who survive, but the Rev. 12 passage SOECIFICALLY shows they are not the Remnant being spoken about in that particular case !! I hear Angels singing Amen. Agreed, people do indeed die. The 1/4 that the Anti-Christ kills happen over the whole 42 month period of time. But God's Wrath lasts 42 months in length also. The First Four Trumps are all ONE EVENT, then Apollon is released at the 1st Woe, and the 200 Million Angelic Army starts slaying 1/3 of all the people who have partaken in Beat Worship, that is where God's Wrath kills Wicked men. Notice how they do it........Have you ever noticed how they kill? Rev. 9:18 By these three was the t hird part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. So, I think you are on the right track asking this question. People do of course die. The First Four Trumps are ONE EVENT, so it happens, then comes the Three Woes starting almost at the same time as the First Four Trumps, but the Three Woes are stretched out, for instance Woe number 1 we know lasts for 5 months. Sometimes God leaves things unsaid, else he would be like me and write down way to much, LOL. God isn't going to give us everything brother. Just enough that we understand it all. The Seals are NOT ACTIABLE....They do nothing, they are Prophesying about what is to come later on. The Heaven being rolled up like a book is a Metaphor for, IMHO, Satan being kicked out of Heaven. These Angels bring PLGUES from God, so I think they are BOUND to a Time, Place, Year and Month (A DATE) in that Region. Thus they will indeed be there on that date to bring their plagues. I think I explained all this in my Apollyon Post. I kept most of them shorter. But on things I am very interested in, I can go on fir days if I do not check myself. Have a blessed evening my friend. |
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