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Post by venge on Dec 13, 2020 9:26:45 GMT -6
I want to ask some of you in the Pre-TB community some questions that I do not understand. This isnt meant to be a pick and poke, argumentative topic. I want to stay away from that. This is a serious attempt to understand how these things penetrate religious articles on the internet and then wind up in Churches. I understand some of you may believe these things, have been taught or still are taught these things. I am not here to say you are wrong and I am right. I just want to know, where is the scriptural basis for it if it exists or are these things devised by man's mind?
Any scriptural help would be appreciated in the following discourse.
1. Church-age believers rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ
I realize Paul spoke on this, I don't need scripture showing this. We appear before the judgment seat of Christ for our reward. Now, some papers I have on my hand show that happens in Rev 4/5. There is no mention of a reward or judgment in Revelation 4 or 5. The only one I am familiar with is Rev 11 where we are said to be judged and rewarded. Why is the judgment and reward placed in Rev 4/5 by some people when it doesnt say so? If this is true, what is the judgment and reward in Rev 11 as it must be different. That part confuses me.
2. AntiChrist signs a Covenant with Israel
Does he sign it with Israel or does he sign it with many (unknown countries)? Which is it?
3. AntiChrist becomes a world leader
Now, I know there is one text that says "all will worship him" that do not have faith in Christ, but we also have reports that Jordan will escape him. We also know, tidings from the north and east will cause him anger and he will go with fury to destroy. If that is true, wouldnt he face opposition and not be ruling over everyone? How does the King of the North fight the King of the south, if the King of the North is ruler over all? Where is scripture that says he rules the globe without opposition?
4. Revived Roman Empire
The last Kingdom will be a Revived Roman Empire. This has also caused me to think how can that be. I have read some peopels statements here, but I wanted to present it anyway. If the 6th head was Rome, and there is a 7th head....and the 7th had to be slain before the beast is slain in order to be revived as an 8th....how does the 6th become the final beast? Not only that, but the 8th head is of the 7....not of the 6th alone. Its characteristics are made up of lion, bear and leopard.
5. The seals are in the Day of the Lord
Joel 2 said the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord. That same thing happens in Rev 6 with the 6th seal. I am trying to understand why some place the Day of the Lord at the seals when it seems to me, the DotL happens after them per Joel 2. Not only that, but the 5th seal asks God to avenge them....if the seals are the DotL (God's wrath)...why are they asking him to have wrath and his reply is to wait till others are killed first?
6. The bowls are before the Millennial reign
If Christ is shown to reign over all the Kingdoms of the world and he is sitting on his throne, wouldnt that be the start of his Millennial reign? Matthew also says that he must remove out of his kingdom all workers of iniquity. If so, how can the bowls happen before it?
7. The idea that the tribulation happens the entire duration of the Day of the Lord
Isnt tribulation and wrath 2 words with 2 different meanings? Can the DotL (God's wrath) be after tribulation while still maintaining a Pre-TB theory?
8. The seals are judgments
Is there scripture that says the seals are wrath or judgments. If so, what are they related to?
9. AntiChrist will lead Western Nations (US or Europe)
Is this scriptural?
10. Satan is cast out of Heaven at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.
I cant find this anywhere.
11. Part of the week is against the apostate Church, not true believers.
If that is so, and the apostate departs from truth..why are we told that those that didnt depart from truth (true believers that hold the commandments of God and faith in Christ Rev 12:17) are to be warred against by Satan in those 3.5 years?
12. The first Trumpet causes an ecological disaster
If 1/3rd trees are destroyed and ALL green grass wiped out, how is it no people die?
13. 2nd Trumpet question
If a giant mountain falls into the ocean, how is it no men die?
14. The 4th Trumpet
Didnt heaven depart as a scroll and roll away in the 6th seal? How is the heaven unrolled and back for this Trumpet?
15. The angels bound in the river Euphrates are fallen angels.
Where does scripture show they are fallen angels? Are we understanding this correctly?
16. Only 3 beings are mentioned in Revelation
The beast (of the sea), the False prophet (beast of the earth) and Satan (the Dragon)
Rev 16:13 and Rev 19:20 are used to address these 3.
Why do people call AntiChrist the beast in reference to the beast of the sea (many articles will say: AntiChrist, False prophet and Satan) if the women rides the beast (presumably AntiChrist), the beast (presumably AntiChrist) has 10 horns (kings over it? Is he over them?), the beast (presumably AntiChrist) has 7 heads (7 kingdoms) though I thought he just has 1 Kingdom, the beast (presumably AntiChrist) once existed and will return (can Satan resurrect man? or can man resurrect before the resurrection?) I find this extremely difficult to understand this line of thought.
I am just looking for a scriptural rationality. This is not a Pre-TB vs another theory. This is just typical things I see in many Pre-TB affiliated churches though most of this really has no bearing on Pre-TB except question #1.
Thank you for anyone that takes time to help me understand how some of these things questions come into Church and possibly, where they come from.
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Post by venge on Dec 14, 2020 8:31:10 GMT -6
Ok,
I see no one has replied yet.
I came across papers in a church that had said many of these things. I am trying to understand where scripture states, for example, the AC will rule western nations. I don't personally recall anywhere that eludes to this..so for me, I don't understand why something that like is taught or shows up on teaching materials. Now, if there is a possible obscure verse that perhaps mentions Romans, the occupying Kingdom in Israel's time, a future people etc...and somehow it leads us to believe it may be Syrian, Egyptian, Roman or some other nation...please let me know. That is what I want to see.
We had a different thread where I had mentioned that when the rapture comes...where do we go. Many believe we go to heaven, but the text doesnt say that. This is another example of something taught, something believed by many...but there is not scripture that spells it out for us. I am not saying it wont happen that way. I am saying, I have yet to see a verse state it specifically. How do we get to these ideas? Every Church seems to have some, however small they are.
With Xmas approaching, some celebrate Xmas. Some do not. We know we can look at what Paul wrote concerning special days, sabbaths and new moons...at least that is my understanding.
We can talk about modesty. Should men and women wear clothing that covers their legs? If so, does that apply to swimsuits? If not...how is it ok for one and not the other. Where do we say its ok and its not ok. Modesty is a product of the culture you live in but modesty can also be half naked to some people. Obviously, we arnt going to find a paragraph that says wear this X amount if inches from your ankle. lol
But we do have verses on modesty and appropriateness as well as not to over sexualize ourselves where it could cause others to fall (sin) and lead to a poor testimony.
I hope some of you would reply if you can answer any of these. Perhaps you can only answer 1 of them, I'll take it. You don't need to be Pre-Tb. I dont care what theory you hold to. Perhaps the title was misleading and I was unsure how to interpret something that seems to be common in Pre-TB churches but is not really Pre-TB doctrine. I hope by writing this, you understand and will participate.
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Post by stormyknight on Dec 14, 2020 9:45:19 GMT -6
Ok, I see no one has replied yet. I came across papers in a church that had said many of these things. I am trying to understand where scripture states, for example, the AC will rule western nations. I don't personally recall anywhere that eludes to this..so for me, I don't understand why something that like is taught or shows up on teaching materials. Now, if there is a possible obscure verse that perhaps mentions Romans, the occupying Kingdom in Israel's time, a future people etc...and somehow it leads us to believe it may be Syrian, Egyptian, Roman or some other nation...please let me know. That is what I want to see. We had a different thread where I had mentioned that when the rapture comes...where do we go. Many believe we go to heaven, but the text doesnt say that. This is another example of something taught, something believed by many...but there is not scripture that spells it out for us. I am not saying it wont happen that way. I am saying, I have yet to see a verse state it specifically. How do we get to these ideas? Every Church seems to have some, however small they are. With Xmas approaching, some celebrate Xmas. Some do not. We know we can look at what Paul wrote concerning special days, sabbaths and new moons...at least that is my understanding. We can talk about modesty. Should men and women wear clothing that covers their legs? If so, does that apply to swimsuits? If not...how is it ok for one and not the other. Where do we say its ok and its not ok. Modesty is a product of the culture you live in but modesty can also be half naked to some people. Obviously, we arnt going to find a paragraph that says wear this X amount if inches from your ankle. lol But we do have verses on modesty and appropriateness as well as not to over sexualize ourselves where it could cause others to fall (sin) and lead to a poor testimony. I hope some of you would reply if you can answer any of these. Perhaps you can only answer 1 of them, I'll take it. You don't need to be Pre-Tb. I dont care what theory you hold to. Perhaps the title was misleading and I was unsure how to interpret something that seems to be common in Pre-TB churches but is not really Pre-TB doctrine. I hope by writing this, you understand and will participate. venge , I just saw this this morning. I've had to step back from getting on the internet on the weekends because my grandson, now 1yr, likes keyboards and mice and pounding on things. lol
There was a lot to process in your first post and for some of it, I am in the same boat with you, I just don't know where and how things fit. I have spent some considerable time studying and thinking about what we become. As you stated above, many believe we go to Heaven. What does the scripture say?
"Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is." 1 John 3:2
What is He like?
"“Truly, truly, I tell you, Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58 "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"" Exod. 3:14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col. 1:17
Notice the tense. "is" "am", all present tense, as in; when thinking about God, time has no meaning. Everything is "now".
Meaning: although we don't know "what we will be", we will be like Him and He is timeless and everywhere. Will we go to Heaven? Where is Heaven in a timeless place? We will be with Him and He is everywhere.
"“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me." John 17:20-23
I tried the timeline thing and I just couldn't see where everything fits as I don't know just who certain players are or my perception of who they are have come in to question lately. I've always thought the woman riding the beast is the Catholic church, but is she? IDK. She is definitely a harlot and the mother of harlots, which fits with the catholic and protestant churches, and she is drunk on the blood of the saints. The Spanish inquisition anyone? (just for one example) I think the thought that the beast is a world government comes from King Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue. All are world governments and the last one is destroyed by the return of Jesus(the rock not made by hands).
also; I think you're right about modesty being a cultural thing, but it all started back with Adam and Eve discovering they were naked and covering themselves with fig leaves. God made them naked, so modesty must be a construct of human nature, shame in the face of someone who loves us. But why would they be ashamed if that is the way God made them? Modesty must come from the presence of evil/darkness/satan. If one truly loves another, then what they look like does not matter, which goes back to "what we will be", what we will "see" will be the heart, not the outer shell.
"O LORD of Hosts, who examines the righteous, who sees the heart and mind,..." Jer. 20:12 "...we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is." 1 John 3:2
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Dec 14, 2020 13:39:14 GMT -6
Ok, I see no one has replied yet. I came across papers in a church that had said many of these things. I am trying to understand where scripture states, for example, the AC will rule western nations. I don't personally recall anywhere that eludes to this..so for me, I don't understand why something that like is taught or shows up on teaching materials. Now, if there is a possible obscure verse that perhaps mentions Romans, the occupying Kingdom in Israel's time, a future people etc...and somehow it leads us to believe it may be Syrian, Egyptian, Roman or some other nation...please let me know. That is what I want to see. We had a different thread where I had mentioned that when the rapture comes...where do we go. Many believe we go to heaven, but the text doesnt say that. This is another example of something taught, something believed by many...but there is not scripture that spells it out for us. I am not saying it wont happen that way. I am saying, I have yet to see a verse state it specifically. How do we get to these ideas? Every Church seems to have some, however small they are. With Xmas approaching, some celebrate Xmas. Some do not. We know we can look at what Paul wrote concerning special days, sabbaths and new moons...at least that is my understanding. We can talk about modesty. Should men and women wear clothing that covers their legs? If so, does that apply to swimsuits? If not...how is it ok for one and not the other. Where do we say its ok and its not ok. Modesty is a product of the culture you live in but modesty can also be half naked to some people. Obviously, we arnt going to find a paragraph that says wear this X amount if inches from your ankle. lol But we do have verses on modesty and appropriateness as well as not to over sexualize ourselves where it could cause others to fall (sin) and lead to a poor testimony. I hope some of you would reply if you can answer any of these. Perhaps you can only answer 1 of them, I'll take it. You don't need to be Pre-Tb. I dont care what theory you hold to. Perhaps the title was misleading and I was unsure how to interpret something that seems to be common in Pre-TB churches but is not really Pre-TB doctrine. I hope by writing this, you understand and will participate. I can't say I have an answer to most of your main questions in your first post, but I don't know if I understand your view on the second portion here in red above. I might be misinterpreting things, but I think that well spelled out in scripture. Matthew 23:9 (ESV)
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
John 14:2 ESV
In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ESV
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.Matthew 8:11 ESVI tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,Luke 23:43 ESVAnd he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”Revelation 2:7 ESVHe who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’It is of my opinion, which may be incorrect, that the combination of claims made of and by Christ Jesus would lead to the inevitable conclusion that we will see heaven. That being said, I have similar questions to what you already posted, and would be interested to see responses from people who have spent more time studying these topics. Thank you for posting. |
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Post by venge on Dec 14, 2020 21:11:00 GMT -6
stormyknight, I understand and thanks for replying. There are many little things I have heard and learned and I search scripture for evidence. Let's just say, there is alot I cannot find and wonder how they came to be. ksteven, You had posted this one verse: To be honest, I had thought about that. But, Christ isnt building for us brick and mortar buildings that we need to live in. One commentator puts it this way: So the Father's house has enough room for all to come in and Christ goes to prepare his receiving of us to him. It doesnt mean we live in heaven. We are to be where ever Christ is and when Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom for 1k years, we reign on earth...not heaven. (Rev 5:10) In the verse regarding our being in paradise, that is also a good one and I had thought about it. That paradise is actually New Jerusalem but let me start at the beggining. Now, lets fast forward to Revelation. Paradise was thought to be equal to the Garden of Eden and Abraham's Bosom. Now look at Rev 22:2 God's paradise was Eden and will be the New Jerusalem (his bride) in the millennial reign. That City will bare the Tree of Life which is in the middle of the paradise of God. Those who inherit all things and rule will Christ will be able to enter the city that is never shut; this paradise on earth. When the thief was on the cross, God promised him that he would see the New Jerusalem, he would be resurrected. Not that he would spend eternity in heaven. Remember, we reign with him on earth and we are always with him. Unless someone can explain it differently...Those were good verses though ksteven, Ecc. says the soul goes back to the one who gave it when we die...but we also do not resurrect till Christ appears and his Kingdom (2 Tim 4:1). I wonder about the 5th seal martyrs. They died and were just waiting and waiting under the alter of souls. They weren't resurrected. I had wondered if that is Abraham's bosom but then that is just a guess on part. Does Abrahams bosom function like Sheol? I suppose thats a different question I'd have to add and think about lol
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Dec 15, 2020 8:57:23 GMT -6
venge , I think I get more of what you are getting at. I don't believe that we have an eternity in heaven, no. What would be the purpose of a New Earth and New Jerusalem if we were to eternally reside in heaven? However, I do believe we are to go there for a time. Until the New Earth and New Jerusalem are made and filled. Even if you follow a pre-wrath view, where are we to be DURING the wrath? I don't believe our souls just sit in a suspended state waiting for the re-creation. Back to this one: Luke 23:43 ESV And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise.”That tells me that upon physical death, we are received to Christ in paradise. If that is not currently on earth, then where would that be now? 2,000 years ago? I also think of Philippians 3:20 (ESV) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,If our souls are received TO Christ upon physical death, and we wait for His return FROM heaven, then to be where He is is, at least for a time, to be IN heaven with Him. What is the meaning of citizenship in a place you will never be? And back to the throne room, where there is a great multitude. Where is the throne room? Again, I don't see us spending eternity in heaven, but for a time, we are there. That is my understanding at least.
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Post by stormyknight on Dec 15, 2020 9:12:01 GMT -6
Mortals have to have a "where". A place to go to, to see. Not so with Immortals. God is everywhere. Heaven, the abode of God, is everywhere, but not physically. The Heaven that God lives in is not a where, it's a state of being. When we are with Jesus, we are in Heaven. Jesus had to prepare a place for us. Could that possibly be evicting certain citizens of Heaven before we arrive? Has Satan been removed from the throne room of God? Perhaps Jesus is still working on that, and when He is done then the door opens for us?
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 12:44:06 GMT -6
Giving this a shot Venge  I will try to refrain from my understanding of other views and only apply to Pre-Trib that I do have knowledge of. My knowledge of this is simply to that of the difference of the rapture timing. If the rapture is ahead of the Trib then so must the rewards/judgment - As you are likely aware 2Cor 5:10 is the basis for this but the comparison to it comes with Rev 20:11-15 where those not raptured are judged. At least that is my understanding. One judgement for believers ahead of the GWT, then those who do not at the GWT I believe this is Dan 9:27 - In double checking this I reviewed the Youngs Literal and found And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week the many here is the greek for 7227. rab - abundance. So it may not mean many countries after all, but covenant with abundance. Do we see many joining the Abraham accords with abundance (of trade, etc.) - perhaps. I also believe this is loosely tied to 1Thes 5:3 This concept is tied to the shadows & types of the past. We have seen this throughout history. I believe the concept is tied to Rev 13:8 I think you answered youre own question? I have heard many exclaim this is physical "Rome" and many point to the catholic church. I do not concur with that point exclusively, but see it as a piece of the puzzle. Not much from me here except that the rapture happens before the Trib and the Trib = day of the Lord. Some see the full 7 yrs as wrath or wrath-like. Same as above - everything destructive comes after the rapture SKIPPING 7-8 as they follow the same rationale. Links back to the Revived Roman empire If the last 7 years is split into 3.5 & 3.5 Satan enters the man of sin when he commits the AoD Good question - could be that of some form of blight only affecting greenery. There are many types of fungus that could cause this and do no harm to people. Also trees are often people in the bible First it does not say no men die, the focus is the sea life and ships. However I could say that this could be volcanic in nature and some of that beneath the water boiling. Also to consider is ships are destroyed and they carry men. And another concept here is the word 'sea' - It may not mean every ocean on the planet but rather something like the Red Sea or Mediterranean Not sure as the verse does not say heaven rolled back in this trumpet. and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night.Preface - I had never heard this discussed in this context of Pre-T. remember that much of what was taught was dont worry about this stuff you wont be here. For me - Them being bound for this hour would give me an indicator that they are not Gods "good" angels rather those reserved for judgment. Preceding is the opening of the bottomless pit...just food for thought  Not sure how this would align to the topic of the thread. Not related to Pre-Trib I would say that even though the woman rides the beast (system) the many horns we read of are rulers within that system, until the one concurs 3 of them consolidating his powers. But thats a whole other thread |
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 12:50:29 GMT -6
I think this is not only related to Pre-Trib. The idea is attributed to (my understanding of it) that when He appears we shall be like Him. 1 John 3:2 & 2 Cor 5:8 - at the rapture we are changed to immortal and caught up in the air. 1Thes 4:17 - I also think that we could be splitting hairs saying its heaven and air. What is certain is the change and that we will be with Him and like Him. Being with Him is heaven brother. Jesus is heaven and those who despise Him despise heaven.
Some of this has to do with considering others first. However we shouldnt get too legalistic about it either. If I went to the Jersey shore and wore board shorts with no shirt it would be expected as there are so many there dressed similarly. Same with women, they will dress in bikinis and one-piece for the most part. However in contrast if I go to a pool party where I know the attendees, I should consider that my dress could affect someone ahead of being there.
This is letter of the law and spirit of it. The onus is on me to not lust after another mans wife, not the wife to worry about me lusting after her. However she should be modest in her apparel - tough one here venge
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 14:38:29 GMT -6
venge , I think I get more of what you are getting at. I don't believe that we have an eternity in heaven, no. What would be the purpose of a New Earth and New Jerusalem if we were to eternally reside in heaven? However, I do believe we are to go there for a time. Until the New Earth and New Jerusalem are made and filled. Even if you follow a pre-wrath view, where are we to be DURING the wrath? I don't believe our souls just sit in a suspended state waiting for the re-creation. Back to this one: Luke 23:43 ESV And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise.”That tells me that upon physical death, we are received to Christ in paradise. If that is not currently on earth, then where would that be now? 2,000 years ago? I also think of Philippians 3:20 (ESV) But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,If our souls are received TO Christ upon physical death, and we wait for His return FROM heaven, then to be where He is is, at least for a time, to be IN heaven with Him. What is the meaning of citizenship in a place you will never be? And back to the throne room, where there is a great multitude. Where is the throne room? Again, I don't see us spending eternity in heaven, but for a time, we are there. That is my understanding at least. , I am not pre Wrath. My understanding, which may differ from your own, is that when Christ appears in his Kingdom we are changed. The wrath doesnt effect us because we are immortal and are with him. Just like the 144k are sealed, those in Christ are sealed from wrath. We dont need to leave earth to be safe from wrath if we are changed when it comes. Where is the comma? There are no commas in that sentence. It could be: And he said to him, Truly I say to you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise. OR And he said to him Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. We don't know if he meant he was telling him "he'd be in paradise" or "that very day" based upon his faith. If we accept that very day, how is he in the garden of God and not resurrected? That would mean everyone goes to paradise upon death. But we don't see that in the 5th seal martyrs. The book of Job doesnt tell us that when a man dies. Paradise was likened to Abraham's bosom and Christ says in Matthew 8 So he likens the eternal future Kingdom with paradise where there will be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all our brothers and sisters...and the thief on the cross. Its the spiritual sense. While we are here, we are to abide by the laws and customs of God. Not how the world acts. Are you referring to the throne room from Rev 7? I'm a little confused on what youre referring to. |
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 14:40:33 GMT -6
Mortals have to have a "where". A place to go to, to see. Not so with Immortals. God is everywhere. Heaven, the abode of God, is everywhere, but not physically. The Heaven that God lives in is not a where, it's a state of being. When we are with Jesus, we are in Heaven. Jesus had to prepare a place for us. Could that possibly be evicting certain citizens of Heaven before we arrive? Has Satan been removed from the throne room of God? Perhaps Jesus is still working on that, and when He is done then the door opens for us? I dont know if he evicts people from heaven. I am not familiar with any scripture that talks about eviction. Of course, we read that Satan is removed from heaven. |
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 14:55:16 GMT -6
I think this is not only related to Pre-Trib. The idea is attributed to (my understanding of it) that when He appears we shall be like Him. 1 John 3:2 & 2 Cor 5:8 - at the rapture we are changed to immortal and caught up in the air. 1Thes 4:17 - I also think that we could be splitting hairs saying its heaven and air. What is certain is the change and that we will be with Him and like Him. Being with Him is heaven brother. Jesus is heaven and those who despise Him despise heaven. Some of this has to do with considering others first. However we shouldnt get too legalistic about it either. If I went to the Jersey shore and wore board shorts with no shirt it would be expected as there are so many there dressed similarly. Same with women, they will dress in bikinis and one-piece for the most part. However in contrast if I go to a pool party where I know the attendees, I should consider that my dress could affect someone ahead of being there. This is letter of the law and spirit of it. The onus is on me to not lust after another mans wife, not the wife to worry about me lusting after her. However she should be modest in her apparel - tough one here venge , I agree with you Mike. Personally, I am not concerned with going to heaven. I only want to please him and knowing that wherever he is, I am too. Again, I agree with you to a part Mike. First and foremost, the person should be responsible for him/herself from sinful acts. I should not stare at a women in a bikini thinking lustful thoughts. On the same hand, though I am responsible for my own sin, the women who is immodest and causes another to sin..is she not guilty of her own sin? How about this, if a man buys a pornographic magazine..he is about to commit lust. He sins. Now, the women that poses naked, knowing full well that men will look, does she not sin too? Now, though the man does sin, does the women also pose as a stumbling block for the man as well? Remember, he still sins...but I am talking about the women in this response. Eve took the apple and sinned. Adam ate and sinned. Adam blames Eve for giving him the apple. Eve then blames the serpent lol. Everyone point your finger at the next guy So God punishes the first guy, the serpent. Then he punishes Eve and lastly Adam. But if the snake beguilded her to commit a sin, couldnt I say...Lord, that women is half naked...I couldnt resist but to look at her and think lude thoughts. I would have sinned, but wouldnt she have sinned to if she wore it to entice me or other men in order to look sexy and appealing? |
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Dec 15, 2020 15:44:44 GMT -6
I am not pre Wrath. My understanding, which may differ from your own, is that when Christ appears in his Kingdom we are changed. The wrath doesnt effect us because we are immortal and are with him. Just like the 144k are sealed, those in Christ are sealed from wrath. We dont need to leave earth to be safe from wrath if we are changed when it comes.Where is the comma? There are no commas in that sentence. It could be: And he said to him, Truly I say to you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise. OR And he said to him Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. We don't know if he meant he was telling him "he'd be in paradise" or "that very day" based upon his faith. If we accept that very day, how is he in the garden of God and not resurrected? That would mean everyone goes to paradise upon death. But we don't see that in the 5th seal martyrs. The book of Job doesnt tell us that when a man dies. Paradise was likened to Abraham's bosom and Christ says in Matthew 8 So he likens the eternal future Kingdom with paradise where there will be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all our brothers and sisters...and the thief on the cross. Its the spiritual sense. While we are here, we are to abide by the laws and customs of God. Not how the world acts. Are you referring to the throne room from Rev 7? I'm a little confused on what youre referring to. I would like to first clarify, I wasn't placing you in the pre-wrath camp, but just using that as a position for my example. With that said, I would like to know, what the effect of the rapture would be if we are present for God's wrath, but merely unaffected by it. Are we floating in the clouds watching, and then just come back down after? or do we actually go somewhere else in our new immortal bodies during that event? Or are we just changed and then set down to watch from ground level? Im confused on your view there. Not criticizing or assuming, just curious. As for the throne room, yes I am speaking of Rev 7, where the multitude stand before the throne: 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.Is John then seeing a future event, post trib, post wrath, post millennial kingdom, ON New Earth, IN New Jerusalem? Or where are these robed peoples, if the throne room is in heaven? As for the rest of your response, I see what your are saying, and can't argue against it. But it is food for thought for me and I'll have to do more reading on my own part. PS. I appreciate this thread. It is similar to my thread about post trib views, but the opposite. There alot of questions I have, but don't even know I have until someone else asks them. Thank you. |
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 15:46:33 GMT -6
venge I think we've had this dialogue once before. Although I understand where you are coming from, I ask that you consider another perspective. Not that I am saying what you spell is wrong, I just think its incomplete The woman who knowingly poses in a magazine designed for pornography is as guilty as the man viewing it. But your question was: First what I meant by the letter of the law and spirit of it can be relatively easily seen in the behavior of Talmudic Jews. At one point in life I had been around enough of them to understand this. In order to ensure the women are not an object of obsession to other men, they wear long clothing so as to not show any part of their skin, and a wig to cover their head/hair which is their beauty. I suppose one could live that way to ensure they have done all that they can to prohibit someone elses possible lustful desires. But I would ask if that actually does it or not. Some women have a look that certain men may want regardless of how well they cover their bodies. It is the heart of that man that is the issue. Now to being on the beach or a pool whether it be local/town or neighbor etc. I hope I do not offend any of my sisters here, but I will say it flat out...I think hairy legs and armpits are not attractive. Ive seen some and they make me look the other way. So if I am in a situation like that, regardless of how much clothing is not there, the fact of the matter is I am not looking for more than the one second that I did before. But for other men it may be something they like. How do you handle such a thing in a case like that? It back to the individual again in my estimation. AND Nowadays we cant even say this is all about men - it could a woman attracted to a woman who calls herself a man (and has a hairy body!) As a brother, believer, disciple of Christ before I put on or remove any clothing I have to consider my motive. If I am dressing in a way that I want others to look at my flesh, I am in sin (period). That is for me and how I look at it. I have been to places where the women are dressing for attention. My approach to this is simply look the other way, ignore and focus my affection on things not of this earth. I do realize not everyone is at the same place as me in their walk. In fact years ago I may not have been able to say this or accomplish what I am saying. Things like this take time in the life of a believer to ascend to.
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 18:43:55 GMT -6
I am not pre Wrath. My understanding, which may differ from your own, is that when Christ appears in his Kingdom we are changed. The wrath doesnt effect us because we are immortal and are with him. Just like the 144k are sealed, those in Christ are sealed from wrath. We dont need to leave earth to be safe from wrath if we are changed when it comes.Where is the comma? There are no commas in that sentence. It could be: And he said to him, Truly I say to you TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise. OR And he said to him Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise. We don't know if he meant he was telling him "he'd be in paradise" or "that very day" based upon his faith. If we accept that very day, how is he in the garden of God and not resurrected? That would mean everyone goes to paradise upon death. But we don't see that in the 5th seal martyrs. The book of Job doesnt tell us that when a man dies. Paradise was likened to Abraham's bosom and Christ says in Matthew 8 So he likens the eternal future Kingdom with paradise where there will be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all our brothers and sisters...and the thief on the cross. Its the spiritual sense. While we are here, we are to abide by the laws and customs of God. Not how the world acts. Are you referring to the throne room from Rev 7? I'm a little confused on what youre referring to. I would like to first clarify, I wasn't placing you in the pre-wrath camp, but just using that as a position for my example. With that said, I would like to know, what the effect of the rapture would be if we are present for God's wrath, but merely unaffected by it. Are we floating in the clouds watching, and then just come back down after? or do we actually go somewhere else in our new immortal bodies during that event? Or are we just changed and then set down to watch from ground level? Im confused on your view there. Not criticizing or assuming, just curious. As for the throne room, yes I am speaking of Rev 7, where the multitude stand before the throne: 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.Is John then seeing a future event, post trib, post wrath, post millennial kingdom, ON New Earth, IN New Jerusalem? Or where are these robed peoples, if the throne room is in heaven? As for the rest of your response, I see what your are saying, and can't argue against it. But it is food for thought for me and I'll have to do more reading on my own part. PS. I appreciate this thread. It is similar to my thread about post trib views, but the opposite. There alot of questions I have, but don't even know I have until someone else asks them. Thank you. I see Rev 7 as John seeing a future event not on earth or the New Jerusalem. I think the robed multitude is symbolic of all those that died and are accepted. I dont view that as a literal event but as a literal feature and outcome of that time. Revelation is symbols, the picture should represent what God said to the 5th seal Martyrs. Wait till your fellow men are slain as you are before he avenges them. I dont see a resurrection there, no bema seat there, no last trumpet, no arch angel, no appearing of Christ, no Kingdom etc... Is it our souls walking around in Heaven? Some may think that and I cannot say it is or its not. I don't believe it is, but that doesnt make me right. The thing is, our souls go back to God and then wait for the resurrection of life or the 2nd death. Is there consciousness in our souls without a body to house it? Or if no man has ascended to heaven but the son of man, why would we ascend till he appears in the clouds? The dead in Christ rise first at his appearing. It doesnt say then depart heaven or that they descend from heaven like Christ does. Just that they rise up... The Lord does come with his saints, but that can be when the resurrection happens in order to rend judgment on the nations. It doesnt have to mean we come from heaven with him. What effect does the rapture have on us during wrath? We are to judge the nations arnt we? And we rule Christ Kingdom with him as coheirs. |
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I will try to refrain from my understanding of other views and only apply to Pre-Trib that I do have knowledge of.