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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 21, 2020 9:23:33 GMT -6
mike , People aren't going to like my comment here.. Please know, that although I am going to suggest something here, keep in mind that I dont disregard the idea of things like the vaccine being a mark...I dont just disagree with something and then blind my eyes to its possibility. I debate my ownself on a regular basis... BUT, looking at the vision here where we are seeing a Sea beast and an Earth beast,,, do we literally see Sea monsters and earth monsters? No, I dont think so. WHy then is the term "buy and sell" to be literal exchange of money for goods? Jesus purchased us with His Blood.. what does that look like literal physical? For Himself personally, He was beaten and hung on a cross, and stabbed with a sword...blood and water came out of His heart. But how did that look literal physical for us? Buy and Sell to me is still associated with the "worship" of an image that is made from man is not of God. Yet too, again, John is seeing the AFTERMATH of a thing. Like he is seeing a group of followers of this image and they are designated to this. Just like he heard the number of the 144, he is seeing the group that is receiving this "mark,". These group bear their titles or designation.. Think of this: and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
4They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
are we to literally see this? How does a locust know who has the seal?
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Post by mike on Dec 21, 2020 10:30:07 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl this response is not a matter of me liking your reply or not. The problem I have with your reply is this right here: To me - you are inserting something here that the text does not say nor suggest, it is your personal interpretation which is dangerous sister. The text says buy or sell correct? Buy - agorazó: to buy in the marketplace, purchase 59 agorázō (from 58 /agorá, "the ancient marketplace, town-center") – properly, to make purchases in the marketplace ("agora"), i.e. as ownership transfers from seller to buyer. Sell - póleó: to exchange or barter, to sell sell, whatever is sold. Probably ultimately from pelomai (to be busy, to trade); to barter (as a pedlar), i.e. To sell -- sell, whatever is sold. Could it be that buying & selling also translates into a spiritual decision or commitment made from man? YES!! In the natural you commit yourself to the object of the affection by taking his name, mark or number of his name. PHYSICALLY! and in your heart, not exclusively in the heart where a spiritually dead person cannot understand. In essence, if your reply was to me you havent actually answered my question. How would a spiritually discerned person know the difference. This is quite clearly about buying and selling as this is what the text says. Edit - yes Jesus spiritually purchased us with His physical blood. Both in play here. Someone will take the mark physically, damning themself spiritually
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Post by boraddict on Dec 21, 2020 12:47:40 GMT -6
Just a side note: The "buying and selling" in the mark of the beast system replaces the "buying and selling" in the Babylonian system. We are currently under the Babylonian system of buying and selling and as such we are committing fornication with Babylon as are the kings and the inhabitants of the earth (Rev. 17:1-2). This means to fornicate with the mark of the beast system is to be unfaithful to God. That is, we are already unfaithful to God by fornicating with the Babylonian system (Rev. 18:2). However, the mark of the beast system is much worse; in that it requires the participants to literally supplant God (Rev. 13:15).
Thus, when the Babylonian system of finance is gone then we have two choices that are to worship the beast and by extension Satan, or to worship God. Right now the vast majority worship Babylon with very few exceptions. Yet at some point we will be called out so that we will not suffer her fate of destruction (Rev. 18:4).
By the way, the Babylonian system does not require that we supplant God; it's just that many do. So while the Babylonian system is not the best of choices it is still possible to live in this system of finance and follow God. However, in the mark of the beast system the option of participating and following God does not exist. No, in the mark of the beast system the participants must acknowledge the beast and by extension Satan as their God.
So the options are, have a relationship with God and live or die to eternal life; or, have a relationship with Satan and live and then die to eternal damnation. The Babylonian option will no longer exist during the 7 years of tribulation.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 21, 2020 12:47:48 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl this response is not a matter of me liking your reply or not. The problem I have with your reply is this right here: To me - you are inserting something here that the text does not say nor suggest, it is your personal interpretation which is dangerous sister. What am I inserting that it does not say? It seems to me this is what we do on this forum all the time. Often bringing in what other men have told us it means, too, but also saying IMHO, or I "see" it this way... We all are dangerous then. People insert a variety of thoughts into Dan 9:27 that I dont agree with..
Let me state it another way then, to take the 'me' out of it:
Throughout the book of revelation there are phrases, groupings, descriptions. Many take them literal physical, and many take the spiritual vision that it is, see a situation to what it means/represents in the physical not always being A equals A: A in the visions does not equal A on earth, but rather A equals a, or A equals 1, etc etc... Psalms are really good at revealing these things, so does Isaiah, and so too, are many of the prophecies of Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel etc...
If many are saying the beast of the sea is not godzilla but a system of man, and/or leaders and governments, then why is "buy and sell" to be taken literally? That is all I am asking. The text says buy or sell correct? The text also says a beast rising up out of the Sea, it also says the earth followed after the beast... Or, will the land start moving around to pursue this beast? I have no snarky attitud here. I am taking another place in the Rev scriptures to illustrate a point. The phrase "follow after the beast", what is that a picture of? we are to "follow" Christ. What does that mean? Follow in the Christian example is Seek as in Believe or have Faith in His Truth... not physcially walking with our feet seeking a vision of Christ.
Buy - agorazó: to buy in the marketplace, purchase 59 agorázō (from 58 /agorá, "the ancient marketplace, town-center") – properly, to make purchases in the marketplace ("agora"), i.e. as ownership transfers from seller to buyer. Sell - póleó: to exchange or barter, to sell sell, whatever is sold. Probably ultimately from pelomai (to be busy, to trade); to barter (as a pedlar), i.e. To sell -- sell, whatever is sold. Could it be that buying & selling also translates into a spiritual decision or commitment made from man? YES!! In the natural you commit yourself to the object of the affection by taking his name, mark or number of his name. PHYSICALLY! and in your heart, not exclusively in the heart where a spiritually dead person cannot understand. In essence, if your reply was to me you havent actually answered my question. How would a spiritually discerned person know the difference. This is quite clearly about buying and selling as this is what the text says. Who are the spiritually discerned? The Saints of verse 13:7? They are having a war with the sea beast, not part of the crowd deceived by the earth dwellers and their creation that affects the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves.
I really thought I did answer our question because you asked, how would one know if it is not a physical mark... I answered with questions. I asked, why does it mean literal physical buy/sell, when we also have a group that are "sealed" and are not harmed, etc... how will we know those? I then also said, this mark thing looks to be designated to a specific grouping of peoples, and the Saint and Bond-servants are not in this group. MAYBE, just maybe, this is what is revealed to the saints and to the bond-servants before we are gathered to Him... It does say, our gathering together does not happen except for the apostacy happens first and the man of lawlessness revealed. Is it at all possible that ch 13 is a picture of said Apostacy and the MoL ?Edit - yes Jesus spiritually purchased us with His physical blood. Both in play here. Someone will take the mark physically, damning themself spiritually |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 21, 2020 12:49:12 GMT -6
YES!
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Post by mike on Dec 21, 2020 14:12:03 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl Are you assuming I took what someone else had taught and placed it in my reply? What I did was read the text, providing the greek words and their meaning. What you are doing is saying "because we dont see a strange looking beast come up from the earth or the sea, we can also take whats written and think it means something that it doesnt say" - this is why I say its dangerous. Where do you end taking whats literal as something to interpret otherwise? There is no limit to doing this. I know from prior discussions that you are not one to favor Exegesis or eisegesis - simply put read the text for what it says, and not what it does not say. OR read the text for what it does not say, assuming thats what it says. When the text says what it says, thats what it means. If we dont handle the word that way we can do all sort of damage. Can we now alter something like: Acts 1:9 and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.This is what I think Acts 1 could say Jesus disappeared into a cloud of people, that covered the mountainside. There were so many people that we couldnt see Him any longer. While they looked up the mountain trying to locate Him, two men in white tuxedos came out of the crowd and said dont look up the mountain youre wasting time, he's coming back down the hill through the crowd just like you saw Him go up there.
I am all for trying to understand something deeper and investigating the meaning, and I have somewhat agreed to the concept of the mark also being a spiritual condition. It is after all going to be something you take along with devotion to the beast. But to say (and maybe you didnt say) that the mark is completely invisible and only has to do with a matter of faith/heart/belief, etc wouldnt be what the text says. I apologize if this is not the point you tried to make. The beast of the sea/earth/locusts - the writers using this imagery ascribe characteristics of these to reflect the kingdoms they represent. We are well over 2000 years removed from much of this writing style and often make mistakes in understanding due to it. So do we rely exclusively on others for our understanding? Probably shouldnt. Should we use the knowledge that teachers before have been given by God and provided to us to help us further our own studies and understanding? Yes I say. So my question was if there are people (and there are A LOT) that do not have the spirit of God they are spiritually discerned (blind), how would one being blind be able to perceive/discern another with a mark or without a mark since the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit. Saints would not be blind provided they are not apostate. You (yes you specifically - based on conversations) can readily see that many people on our TVs, neighborhoods, etc do not have the spirit of God making them discerned. Take any of the highly popular governors making regular appearances on TV for an example. If you were in a crowd of people how would that man (i'm thinking of my own or the one next door) know that I had or didnt have an invisible mark?
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Post by venge on Dec 21, 2020 17:00:18 GMT -6
1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.In light of this thread and others like it I ask a question I do not think I have seen yet. Much of the dialogue has to with the mark, name or number of the name of the beast. For the Christian this mark being something not seen is quite possibly discerned as those who have the spirit, the Holy Ghost teaches things of the spirit. But not so with the natural man. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.If the mark is something that is exclusively spiritual and not something that be seen in the natural, how will the spiritually discerned know it? For example the text says in Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. If I walk into a grocery store at the same time as an unbeliever both with marks that are spirit only and not discernable to the natural man, how will the person who is charged with selling the merchandise have ability to discern that I have no mark, number or number of his name? That person could be a believer also with no mark, or unbeliever having a mark. How does this person distinguish between the two? Am I being naïve? That depends on the system created by the AC to tell what is required in order to buy/sell. Because we dont know the system, it poses a dilemma. I can understand that some may see a system in place that is physical. A system can also be in place that is spiritual. Will you have to sacrifice in order to buy/sell? Will you have to worship the beast in some manner in order to buy/sell? Those would constitute a spiritual mark. Failure to think through possibilities, and put all our hope in our eyes is truly limiting. We have some facts, God's word is spiritual. We are fighting a spiritual battle. Our race for the crown is a spiritual race. The AC comes with false signs and wonders meant to deceive; acting as a false messiah? He could be using a spiritual message. Just some things to contemplate. Buying and selling of itself isnt a sin. So the mark must have to do with worship in some degree. Worshipping another, idolizing, lifting one up...all over God is a spiritual issue. Can the mark be such that 2 people walk in to buy something, 1 a Christian and 1 an unbeliever, and others can tell because of what they need to do (worship the AC) in order to purchase? That would stand out like a sore thumb and require no physical thing. |
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Post by mike on Dec 21, 2020 19:08:12 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirlI went back and re-read your post. I wanted to make sure I was following you correctly. I now see that I glazed over this jumping from people arent going to....into the "is it possible the rmark..."resulting in my response being directed to the rest of the post. Missing this piece caused me to react incorrectly, to which I apologize. I was not reading/operating in grace. venge - what you pose makes the non-visible mark (tatoo, chip, etc) makes this much more plausible to me. Bowing your will, giving your dedication heart and hands to a cause accomoanied by a genuflect of sorts, identifiable to all helps me understand better. Thankk you
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 21, 2020 21:21:55 GMT -6
well thank God, because I was mentally frustrated with you all day. and, Apology accepted.
I was about to throw my hands up in the air on your then next post to me, and ask myself why am I being singled out for seeking a meaning of something when so many others jump thru hoops (IMHO) about the covenant with many as a "peace" treaty when it doesnt talk about peace at all
So many (and the reason I found this forum) had to do with rev 12:1 and Sept 23, 2017... Talk about taking that verse about the woman and making it into something else than what it says... YET< in all my heart and soul I "see" that 12:1 is referring to a part in the Mazzaroth that also indicates a season of the year, and includes wandering stars that made a pattern so super rare it fit the description in rev 12:1, it caught the attention of many watchers.
If people are saying that verse is fulfilled via stars in the sky, then for sure I can put forth a question as to the "literalness" of the term buy/sell..
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 21, 2020 22:04:23 GMT -6
mike, Hey my dear brother, Your point or your question is the same exact thing I've said several times in several different threads. It's definitely spiritual, but the fact that it will be used to determine who can buy or who can sell. Guess what happens when you can't buy food from any store. You have to either grow it, steal it, or trade something else of value for it. I'm certain that some will try to live off the grid for a while, bartering and trading, much like you would see at a rural farmer's market. The issue here is that non-Christians are not able to discern Spiritual things. How could they tell who has the Mark, if it's some internal, or heart thing, or in one's mind. ?? They can't. And you can only enforce - [punish] for what is able to be tested, measured or observed. Even Christians with the gift of discernment often mis-read or mis-interpret someone's actions, or words or they think they are sensing something, but it turns out to not be the case. We have tests to determine exactly how much alcohol is in someone's blood. We can test to see positively in someone has used drugs in the last 48 hours. We have radar guns to determine exactly how fast a person was driving, and we use fingerprints and DNA to test and see if someone's hair, skin or blood was on a victim, weapon, or at a crime scene. But you can't test for lust, or a thought. Without a way to see/ prove who has the Mark, - it is impossible to enforce it. I've said before that i do think it could be something that is not visable to the naked eye. You might not be able to see a micro-dot tattoo on someone's hand with Luciferase particle ink, but it can sure be seen with a scanner. In other words - it's objective, it's real, and it can be easily tested, as easily as face-recognition is used to pick out a person in a disguise in a crowd of people. I also think it's not coincidence that the ideal space for the maximum effectiveness of facial recognition software is for people about 6 feet apart. Hmmm. Let that just percolate for a bit. hmmmmm.
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Post by venge on Dec 22, 2020 8:43:11 GMT -6
mike , Hey my dear brother, Your point or your question is the same exact thing I've said several times in several different threads. It's definitely spiritual, but the fact that it will be used to determine who can buy or who can sell. Guess what happens when you can't buy food from any store. You have to either grow it, steal it, or trade something else of value for it. I'm certain that some will try to live off the grid for a while, bartering and trading, much like you would see at a rural farmer's market. The issue here is that non-Christians are not able to discern Spiritual things. How could they tell who has the Mark, if it's some internal, or heart thing, or in one's mind. ?? They can't. And you can only enforce - [punish] for what is able to be tested, measured or observed. Even Christians with the gift of discernment often mis-read or mis-interpret someone's actions, or words or they think they are sensing something, but it turns out to not be the case. We have tests to determine exactly how much alcohol is in someone's blood. We can test to see positively in someone has used drugs in the last 48 hours. We have radar guns to determine exactly how fast a person was driving, and we use fingerprints and DNA to test and see if someone's hair, skin or blood was on a victim, weapon, or at a crime scene. But you can't test for lust, or a thought. Without a way to see/ prove who has the Mark, - it is impossible to enforce it. I've said before that i do think it could be something that is not visable to the naked eye. You might not be able to see a micro-dot tattoo on someone's hand with Luciferase particle ink, but it can sure be seen with a scanner. In other words - it's objective, it's real, and it can be easily tested, as easily as face-recognition is used to pick out a person in a disguise in a crowd of people. I also think it's not coincidence that the ideal space for the maximum effectiveness of facial recognition software is for people about 6 feet apart. Hmmm. Let that just percolate for a bit. hmmmmm. , I wanted to copy what you said that him home for me. And that is what i think about. I do contemplate the possibilities; it can be physical or spiritual though I lean more towards a spiritual mark for many reasons. As you rightly stated, un-believers cannot see spiritual things. They are in darkness, but we are supposed to be in the light and being in that light, we can discern. Do we know for sure that anyone who has the mark recognizes it on someone else? What I am asking is, if the issue is buying and selling, and let's assume that an unbeliever in darkness has the mark and doesnt know it because they follow the world (earth dwellers as barbiosheepgirl pointed out). Could a believer be prevented from buying/selling if doing so would compromise ones faith (receiving a mark stating they worship the beast over God)? The object is the mark which symbolizes fealty to the beast. But the object can be actionable and not physical such as bowing down/prostrating oneself, verbal agreement, written agreement, sacrifice as examples. I even wonder, I'd assume believers would rebel against any physical or spiritual mark and yet, they would need to buy/sell. The other issue, we are not told the specifics of what buy/sell is. Does it encompass everything possible? Is it only those thing that were in Mystery Babylon? Are we talking about the things man lusts after or basic necessities? The other issue in understanding what the mark is, is why does the AC create it and when does he create it? I think these go hand in hand and that they further explain the relationship to him. |
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Post by venge on Dec 22, 2020 9:20:39 GMT -6
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