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Post by boraddict on Dec 14, 2020 22:49:57 GMT -6
In reference to the 666 that Barb has mentioned. I find myself at a loss as to the correct interpretation of that verse (Rev. 13:18). I had concluded that the answer was found with the 266 that is now the number of the current papa along with 400 that represents an association to Christ. Like, 4 having multiple associations throughout scripture as a verifier that it is indeed scripture. Just a side note: The absence of the number 4 in Denver Snuffer's work was one of the verifiers to me that he was a false prophet. He is a lawyer in Salt Lake that is growing the offshoot LDS movement. So back to it, I had concluded that 400 was the number assigned to the early church and then 266 was the current papa and these two numbers together are 666. However, now it seems that some other interpretation exists. So let's say that some beast has the number 666. What beast is that beast? Is it the beast of Rev. 13:1, 11 or perhaps 17:3; or, is it some other head or crown or horn? Or perhaps the Rev. 13:18 beast is not in the Book of Revelation at all. Please consider that the 1st prerequisite of Rev. 13:18 is that the one having understanding should count the number of the beast. Secondly, the number of that beast is also the number of a man, and third, his number is 666. So first of all John is saying that his clue is a point of wisdom that a person must have an understanding that the man having the number of 666 directly corresponds to the number of the beast. John is not saying that the beast and man have any greater connection than this number. That is, the man having the number 666 does not necessarily associate himself with the beast that also has the number 666. It is just a point that they have this number in common. Perhaps, the number of the man is 666 but the number of the beast is not 666. The verse simply states that the number of the man is 666 but that someone with understanding should count the number of the beast. It implies that the number of the beast is known and can be counted; not that the number is in fact the same as the number of the man, if that number is really 666. So there is a beast with a number that is like a number that a man has. I do not think that the number of either is 666. Because, like so much of the Book of Revelation, it is metaphor, or type and shadow, or smile, etc. So the number 666 has some association but prior to that is the number of the beast that can be counted. So what beast that exists at this time has a number. Any guesses? And, as venge has pointed out to me and others, the beast is a government. |
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 8:27:16 GMT -6
In reference to the 666 that Barb has mentioned. I find myself at a loss as to the correct interpretation of that verse (Rev. 13:18). I had concluded that the answer was found with the 266 that is now the number of the current papa along with 400 that represents an association to Christ. Like, 4 having multiple associations throughout scripture as a verifier that it is indeed scripture. Just a side note: The absence of the number 4 in Denver Snuffer's work was one of the verifiers to me that he was a false prophet. He is a lawyer in Salt Lake that is growing the offshoot LDS movement. So back to it, I had concluded that 400 was the number assigned to the early church and then 266 was the current papa and these two numbers together are 666. However, now it seems that some other interpretation exists. So let's say that some beast has the number 666. What beast is that beast? Is it the beast of Rev. 13:1, 11 or perhaps 17:3; or, is it some other head or crown or horn? Or perhaps the Rev. 13:18 beast is not in the Book of Revelation at all. Please consider that the 1st prerequisite of Rev. 13:18 is that the one having understanding should count the number of the beast. Secondly, the number of that beast is also the number of a man, and third, his number is 666. So first of all John is saying that his clue is a point of wisdom that a person must have an understanding that the man having the number of 666 directly corresponds to the number of the beast. John is not saying that the beast and man have any greater connection than this number. That is, the man having the number 666 does not necessarily associate himself with the beast that also has the number 666. It is just a point that they have this number in common. Perhaps, the number of the man is 666 but the number of the beast is not 666. The verse simply states that the number of the man is 666 but that someone with understanding should count the number of the beast. It implies that the number of the beast is known and can be counted; not that the number is in fact the same as the number of the man, if that number is really 666. So there is a beast with a number that is like a number that a man has. I do not think that the number of either is 666. Because, like so much of the Book of Revelation, it is metaphor, or type and shadow, or smile, etc. So the number 666 has some association but prior to that is the number of the beast that can be counted. So what beast that exists at this time has a number. Any guesses? And, as venge has pointed out to me and others, the beast is a government. , I think it's important to understand that the word for "man" used here is anthrópos. It doesnt have to be a singular man or women, it can mean mankind. I believe it is mankind. Why is that? The False prophet sets up the mark for the beast of the sea. Daniel 7 says 4 beasts come out of the sea. The first was Babylon, the second Media-Persia and the third was Grecian. Later in that same chapter, we are told the 4th beast is the 4th Kingdom on the Earth. Kingdoms are full of mankind, the human race and peoples. The idea is, whoever has had "the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" is part of that Kingdom. They act as citizens of it. They are proud of it and what it accomplishes. It meets their needs regardless of how and who it destroys in order to do it. Its a nationalistic Kingdom because its to be worshiped as the greatest (who is like unto the beast? Who can make war with it?) This Kingdom is full of pride in herself. She says she sits as queen and will see no sorrow. Don't confuse her with Babylon, this Kingdom is a nation in complete spiritual darkness. Some things to think about. The word for beast is not just evil or wild, but a brutal nature. I believe we are looking for the brutal nature of mankind. A number can be a unit of measurement. It can also be a collection of many individuals; a numerous assemblage; a multitude; many. By this example, the number of the beast could be the numerous assemblage of mankind with a brutal nature. Basically, nations or populations that are like minded and give their energy and strength to that cause. Many people throughout time have rose because of protests and riots. These people had been elevated, but the governments that were created were created because of the like minded nature of the people. I am reminded of 2 things in this case: 1. These 10 individuals have some pull over the people where they reside. They could all be part of different nations. Either way, they all are like minded. They have enough followers and pull over the people to have them agree with their rhetoric and the people can take and do what they want with or without their nations approval. It is possible these peoples dont act on behalf of their nations Government. We cant rule that out. The 10 horns receive power as Kings; that is authority...but they have received no Kingdom yet. They only have their authority when the beast is active. They are part of the problem. 2. Now here is a tricky word play imo. Because its not specified which beast is which. We must look at the context. If the beast were a singular man, and not mankind, we'd have to explain that in Daniel 7 and these 2 verses. The 10 horns cannot sit on the AC and give their Kingdom to the AC. Most likely, the 10 horns sit on the beast (of the sea ie. 4th Kingdom) and give the Kingdom (the beast of the sea) to another beast. That beast, being the only other beast mentioned, is the False prophet (beast of the earth)(AC). We know through numbers, as you stated in your post, that 600, 60 and 6 (666) is the number of man/mankind. What is so brutal and wicked about this number? I'd suggest you read 1 Kings 10, 11 and 12 Solomon's Kingdom was rich. That isnt evil in itself. But how did the Kingdom use it? What evils were in the Kingdom? That Kingdom, lead by Solomon, was the richest and wisest in the known world. That Kingdom disobeyed God's command and brought horses out of Egypt That Kingdom had men marry as many women at they wanted. They turned their hearts away from God That Kingdom did trade with all nations and became rich because of it That Kingdom increased its military for war/defense That Kingdom had a high living standard as silver was like stones. That Kingdom had an abundance of things (trees, animals, plants) that did not naturally grow there That Kingdom had soo many strange women in it, they all brought all their strange Gods with them That Solomon, as King of that Kingdom, chastised the people with whips and his son chastises them with scorpions. That Kingdom laid heavy burdens on the people and on all nations to pay them tribute. What people want a large military, many idols and things, tariffs on other nations to make them pay, cruelty to its own peoples, a high living standard, one of the richest countries in the world, trade with the world, and an educational system that was one of the highest. Sounds like a Super power doesnt it? Solomon's Kingdom was the super power in his days and they sinned tremendously. Who is the super power today? What about tomorrow? |
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 8:56:05 GMT -6
boraddict, venge, Please keep the thread on the topic as you are veering from the original intent. You are free to discuss the topic of what the mark is in another thread
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2020 9:00:55 GMT -6
boraddict can you clarify this for me please? This statement is anti-Christ and a violation of forum rules (#1)! we have one God in three persons, not three gods. Please do not promote heresy of Latter Day Saints on the forum
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Post by boraddict on Dec 15, 2020 13:33:43 GMT -6
boraddict can you clarify this for me please? This statement is anti-Christ and a violation of forum rules (#1)! we have one God in three persons, not three gods. Please do not promote heresy of Latter Day Saints on the forum Oh, sorry about that. I should have worded it differently. We have one God and that is common knowledge. However, when considering the Godhead structure that is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, it has been stipulated to in the Book of Revelation to show a similar structure for the false god that is Satan. Thus, Satan is their father, the beast holds the position as their savior, and the great authority(Rev. 13:2) holds the third position that is the false prophet. So in fact they have one god that is Satan; however, John seems to be showing a delineation in the false godhead that is similar to that of the true Godhead: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. So it is not that we have three Gods but there is a Godhead structure that John is showing that is similar to. mike, that is so funny. I do not think the LDS have three Gods but they have thousands of Gods because they believe they become Gods. No, the reference that I was making was worded poorly. I should have said "we have a Godhead composted of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." In fact as I was writing I presumed the common knowledge and simply skipped to what I was pointing out to venge. We do not have three Gods but one.  |
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Post by venge on Dec 15, 2020 15:05:20 GMT -6
boraddict can you clarify this for me please? This statement is anti-Christ and a violation of forum rules (#1)! we have one God in three persons, not three gods. Please do not promote heresy of Latter Day Saints on the forum Oh, sorry about that. I should have worded it differently. We have one God and that is common knowledge. However, when considering the Godhead structure that is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, it has been stipulated to in the Book of Revelation to show a similar structure for the false god that is Satan. Thus, Satan is their father, the beast holds the position as their savior, and the great authority(Rev. 13:2) holds the third position that is the false prophet. So in fact they have one god that is Satan; however, John seems to be showing a delineation in the false godhead that is similar to that of the true Godhead: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. So it is not that we have three Gods but there is a Godhead structure that John is showing that is similar to. mike , that is so funny. I do not think the LDS have three Gods but they have thousands of Gods because they believe they become Gods. No, the reference that I was making was worded poorly. I should have said "we have a Godhead composted of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." In fact as I was writing I presumed the common knowledge and simply skipped to what I was pointing out to venge. We do not have three Gods but one. True we arnt Gods in the sense they say. mike, I just wanted to reply to her questions. Not to change the subject. Let's get back to" what does it mean to take the mark?" |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 17, 2020 0:19:13 GMT -6
The mark is mentioned at Rev. 13:16, 14:9, 16:2. Please notice that these references are in sequence the first being that the mark was caused by the beast, the second is a warning to not take the mark, and the third is the punishment for taking the mark. Please notice in this third reference that punishment is poured upon the earth and then sores came upon those who had taken the mark.
Please notice that the beast causes fire (missiles) to come down upon the earth (Rev. 13:13).
I would also call you attention to the point that Rev. 13 has only 4 verses devoted to the 1st beast and 14 verses devoted to the 2nd beast. It is this 2nd beast that causes the fire to come down from heaven and then at Rev. 13:14 the language begins to expand upon the deception caused by this 2nd beast. However, the deception began back at Rev. 13:3 with the 1st beast having been wounded but lived. That is, the chapter is set in a chiasmus as follows:
Rev. 13:1-4, the results of the deception by the 2nd beast
Rev. 13:5-10, the 2nd beast against God
Rev. 13:11-18, the deception by the 2nd beast
Thus, the correct order of the Chapter 13 verses would be: the center and emphasis of the chapter that is the war against God (vv. 5-10) followed by the deception (vv. 11-18) and the results of the deception (vv. 1-4).
Since the warfare part of the deception begins with missiles coming down (Rev. 13:13) and then at Chapter 16 we see the results of the bowl being poured out, then it is reasonable that the missiles are the 1st bowl of Chapter 16 (Rev. 16:2). That is, the judgment of God upon those who take the mark begins before they take the mark. Thus, when they take the mark then sores develop because of the missiles that came down from heaven. Is this nuclear radiation in the food that they purchase? Just a thought.
At any rate, it seems to suggest that the mark occurs after the 2nd beast strikes a nuclear war. And this takes place after the deception that the 1st beast is yet alive (IMO).
Post Script: The war is set in Chapter 12 and it appears that the saints with whom the 2nd beast is waging war are protected from the nuclear radiation at Rev. 12:14, 14:1.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 17, 2020 11:26:51 GMT -6
gonna hold to what Mike said the title of this thread should have been: "what does it mean to RECEIVE the mark?" This is different than taking the mark, isn't it?
Also, the earth beast CAUSES that list of people TO BE GIVEN it... Look at both words for "causes" and "to be given" and the context, to me, is that it is NOT something possible to refuse, and there is a specific list of people that are the target.
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I am raising a question here. I am breaking down all these verses of ch 13...
Is this mark group the same group as the earth dwellers that are deceived?
the beast of the earth is, or does, the following:
1)He exercises all the authority of the first beast (the sea one) in his presence.
2)he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
3)He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
4)And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
those who dwell on the earth (not those of the sea) make the image to the sea beast
5)And it was given to him (the earth beast) to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
a whole other topic...
6)And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
which results in that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
The reason why I think that these Mark recipients are a specific group is because of how the groups are named in the vision of the Sea beast:
3I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;
4they (the earth) worshiped the dragon... why?
because he (dragon) gave his authority to the beast (of the sea);
and they (the earth) worshiped the beast (of the Sea), saying, “Who is like the beast (of the Sea), and who is able to wage war with him?”
5There was given to him (the sea beast)
A)a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and
B)authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
the mouth has a purpose, to blasphemy God's Name and God's Tabernacle:
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
NOTICE: we have a group here: God's Tabernacle. it is defined as those who dwell in heaven...
And not only is the earth amazed and follow after the sea beast, but...
7It was also given to him (the Sea beast) to
A)make war with the saints and to overcome them,
and B)authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
war is made with the saints, and we have this sea beast receiving authority or rule over this group: every tribe, people, tongue and nation...
C)8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
***** Are we seeing a definition here again? Those whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb are called "those who dwell on the earth" ****
9If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
This verse 9 here is the root of this thread. I THINK it is telling us that this event of the Vision is set in stone, and this IS what it IS, not to change or be changed. And what John is seeing is result, not the future action. Hang in there with me...
Look at it this example, I paint this picture: and he causes all the fans of the Vikings to receive purple and gold shirts.
The Viking fans are already in existence. They are not Packer fans, nor ever will be. And these Viking fans are given these shirt which is the only way they are go in and out of the First Bank building, they are made up of a variety of folks. Oh, but there are also NFL goers, They worship the sport in general. These people create the merchandise for the Viking fans...
My point is that this event of the receiving of the Mark is just that. An EVENT that happens, and it is partaken by these certain groups of people.
The "WARNING" in ch14... I dont think it is a true warning, like If you do this this will happen...No, I think it is saying: This group, the mark recipients and worshippers of the image, go to wrath, whereas the the other group, the 144K as an example, follow the Lamb whereever He goes..
Why does any of this matter? BECAUSE I think this what Paul has been trying to tell us all along. WE persevere and have the Blessed Hope, and that anything else of the Sea or the Earth is not a "threat" to us. Those who are not Sealed, those who are written in the Book of Life, are not partakers of the Bowls...
What it means to Receive the Mark is not something that a Follower of Christ Receives. We RECEIVE the Blood and the Testimony of the Word..we don't RECEIVE the Mark You who hold the testimony of the Word are NOT described as earth dwellers in the Vision, nor are you a tongue or tribe or nation... Even tho tongue tribes and nations come to heal, they are destined to heal during the 1000 yr reign.
Breaking down ch 13 shows the targetted people of mankind. Think of John as diagramming a sentence. Those of you who graduated highschool before the 90's would know what diagramming is (I'm making a joke here). The object of the mark is NOT the saints, it is all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves,
The saints and the Tabernacle are recipients of war, and blasphemy connected with the Sea beast...
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Post by venge on Dec 18, 2020 8:54:30 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, Are you suggesting that there is a separation between the 2 groups (earth and those in faith) and the group in faith is not forced to take it? If there is any separation though, on something that is forced, wouldnt that pose a dilemma? Break it down to me kindergarten style lol, I am really tired this week.
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 18, 2020 10:02:19 GMT -6
I am asking this entire forum, right now. What does it mean to "take the Mark?" Tell me your opinion and why you have that opinion. We need to examine this before we get all tangled up in things that we think are this and that and then are not, misleading the many. This thread is NOT about identifying what is the mark... it is about: 1)WHAT does it MEAN to take it. 2)WHY is this an issue? 3)Why would a person "take the mark?" and, 4)is a born-again (Spirit-filled/annointed) Follower of Christ able to "take the Mark?" Hello Fellow watchmen, I am going to throw my 2 cents in, barbiosheepgirl , since you asked for people's opinions. ;-) I'm going to try to approach it from a simple, straight forward perspective - and I'm glad that you chose to not have it be about what the mark is or is not. 1. What does it mean to take it. ? In order to even start the dialogue, it's important to have a basic framework / common understanding. In other words, if you take or get something abstract, like love, faith, etc, then it fundamentally impacts and changes the questions above. So I'll try to keep my post to an understanding that it's not an invisible abstract thing like fear, or worship. To take the mark, means to receive or get it, just as in to take medicine or take a vaccine, or get a tattoo. Accept, receive, get something. "They got a full price offer on the house in the first day, but the sellers were demanding, so they didn't take it. "Wayne doesn't take any prescription drugs or even over the counter medicines. His wife is a homeopathic doctor and they only take herbal remedies." The most common, normal use of the word is the one that fits here. **This is important because it directly relates to the 2nd question. Why is this an issue. 2. Why is this an issue. It's a huge issue because of the implications - eternal consequences of taking / receiving the mark. It's not simply a matter of taking a pill, or taking a vaccine, or "getting" a simple RFID microchip. These are already in use, in Norway and the US, and there are some clear and positive benefits. Interestingly enough, those who are strongly opposed to getting a microchip, are also those who see the connection to the mark of the Beast. Use it to buy/sell, have it be connected to one's bank account, can be tracked, always being tracked every moment of every day, and you can't turn it off. But unlike a vaccine - [which is itself very very controversial, even among non-religious people around the world] this is directly and inseparably linked to worshiping the beast. That is why I agree with venge and others that the current Covid vaccine itself is NOT The Mark. It doesn't stop anyone from worshiping God, or does it require anyone who takes it to declare allegiance to anything or anyone. It also doesn't fit the very explicit description in Rev that it will be in your right hand or your forehead. It is however, very clearly setting the stage for the mark, and there is already talk of Covid passports, and without it, you can't travel on international airlines, and it's only a matter of time before it goes industry wide to include domestic flights. An article in the news today, talked about how this will likely create two totally separate groups of people, **much like the whole social credit system already in place in China, where your credit score is affected by who you hang out with, and directly affects your ability to get a job. The biggest thing about the Mark, - why it's an issue, is that taking it [getting the Mark] makes a person eternally damned. There's no going back, turning it off, or paying some guy in a seedy back ally to cut it out like a RFID chip, in the movies. ***This point is important, because of the fact that people will not be tricked - like thinking they are just getting a vaccine, and it turns out that they got the Mark of the beast.. But it's easy to see how the anarchy will be so intense, and the pressure so great, that people will literally fear that they will starve to death, can't buy or sell without it. It's also important to at least point out the obvious that most Christians believe that we will be raptured long before the MARK is here and forced on people, but the fact that we can see the incremental steps tell us just how close we are.  Again, just for the sake of a common understanding -- framework for the dialogue, let's pretend that all tens of millions of people who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture are wrong, and we see the AC revealed and the Abomination of Desolation at the mid point, and we're still here.  [Here again - one's position on pre-trib vs pre-wrath directly changes the way they answer this.] 3. Why would a person take the Mark? The meaning of the question, changes dramatically depending on where that person sees the rapture on the timeline. For this moment - we're all pretending that the rapture happens at the end - so all Christians go through the tribulation. In this case, people who are new Christians, - not mature in their faith, and don't know scripture, and haven't been taught about the permanent effects. - They would take it out of sheer desperation. Already told that they will lose their job, - stores and businesses will have already declared that they won't sell to anyone without the Mark, and without it, they can't use public transportation. - THey would take it, not believing it's permanent. Some may be fooled into thinking that they can take the Mark outwardly, but inwardly still worship God -- just like the masses of Christians who are deceived by false teaching, - the most amazing irony is they are told and believe that apostasy really means something else - so we have millions of people who are lukewarm and sound asleep - preferring to have "comfort theology" over scripture. Just think about it - regardless of how your own position on apostasy and what it means, when people - Let's say Jack and Jill Churchgoer have surrounded themselves in an echo chamber - every one telling them Garden path questions, with misleading terms, - that it's impossible to ever "misplace your faith" - every rational person over age 10 can see why the same people would easily believe that taking the Mark couldn't separate me from God. "After all, my Lutheran pastor told me that nothing can separate me from the Love of God." Hmmmm. Let that percolate for a minute. 4. Is a born again Follower of Christ able to take the Mark.?*** Garden path question. This is the easiest question of them all. Absolutely. Why would they not be?? Were Peter and Judas listed as being part of the 12 apostles chosen by Christ?? Yes or No? The answer is YES, both of them were listed and explicitly stated by Christ as being chosen apostles.
Did Peter or Judas, or anyone else ever follow Christ and then turn away? Yes, many. Church of Laodicea, Simon in Acts, Paul said specifically that some of the people in Galatia had fallen from grace, and that in the last days many would depart from the faith, etc, etc.
If you are pre-tribulation rapture view, then all born again Christians would already be raptured anyway, - they would all be gone. Who is left?? Jews and those who come to Christ after the rapture- Brand new, baby Christians. Many who had been brought up in church, heard the truth, but didn't believe it. Others who had been members of church for decades, told they were Christians, only to find out they missed the rapture, and their false teacher/ pastor will still be there. Just imagine the anarchy, and false teaching on earth when all the Christian pastors are taken - just think about the Pastors who are left. Horrible thought. So you can imagine the false teaching that these guys will be teaching. --- the result is people who are weak, new believers without shepherds/ pastors to guide them, in a world of utter terror and chaos, with false teachers and fear of being beheaded if they don't take the Mark. J D Farag said it so well. "If a person doesn't have the courage/ character to live for Christ now- what makes them think they would have the courage to die for Christ after the rapture"?? [Those who missed the rapture because they didn't believe, but think that they can just become a Christian after the rapture.] that's my take. Blessings, |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 18, 2020 12:54:53 GMT -6
And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, 'If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
"let oneself" be marked or stamped with
I did a little more looking here. The 3rd Angel proclaiming from midheaven uses a term for "receive" that is not the same regarding the receiving of mark in Rev 13. This ch 14 verse reads as if there is a choice by the recipient because of the accepting part... ok, so that defines that situation.
lambano' (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
But the receiving of the mark in ch 13 is not the same word
And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads,
causes: poieó this word seems to imply the same "causes one" to do something "makes one do something", like an influence it seems to me.
to be given: dosin
It is from didomi. And dosin is only used in the verse of Rev 13:16. I could not find the exact verse under the definition of didomi. I can only conclude it is give in the sense of putting on or placing, not giving as in giving a gift...
so, let me give a huge controversial example:
Ash Wednesday. From my catholic roots, it is a mark placed on the forehead that represents the start of a period of time of fasting or refraining from or giving up doing things for a period of time til Easter. The congregant allows the priest to mark their forehead with ash. Its a visible thing that represents something not really tangible, which is giving up something for God, and is form of works. This is a catholic thing, not a baptist thing for example. SO, the persons receiving this mark are a group of people. They are catholics. DO lutherans this? And this mark is associated with a group of people. JOhn sees that there is this group that receive this mark for "buying and selling." not gonna touch that rabbit trail yet.
In the Vision we are seeing phrases or names to describe people, but its a grouping because John is seeing the completed picture and how these groups are affected by the Revealing/Truth/Word of God..
Those who dwell on earth
Those who dwell in heaven
Peoples, tongues tribes and nations (often used as a cluster group)
Saints
Bond-servants.
A bond-servant is not a recipient of the mark, otherwise the Vision would have said so. Bond-servants are not "peoples"... If there is to be destruction or judgement etc in whatever form you can imagine, why is this comment made Rev 7
2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
followed by this:
3Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
but getting to the mark thing: I think it is an activity being described as those who are worshipping the image of the beast made by the "earth" If a person is worshipping the Lord God Almighty, they are NOT in this group. They are not receiving the mark of man. They are most liking Sealed bond-servants or men sealed on the forehead by God, not marked by the image makers of the earth..
I think we are seeing some of the results of those who are following lies. Are these people already marked with the number of a man and not God?
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Post by mike on Dec 18, 2020 13:11:40 GMT -6
disciple4life - wazzup! I read through your post and had some thoughts my friend #3 - really the whole piece you wrote up but to keep my reply short I quote only: And truly we see this happening all over the "christendom" world. From the pope spouting out his nonsense to other articles about Lutheran pastors performing homosexual marriages, the new Progressive Methodist movement (read that blasphemy please) among many other 'religious' leaders fulfilling John 10:12! I am sickened by it all and must remind myself that He is coming soon and this is foretold to happen first. I dont agree with JD on this topic as he speaks of it as doctrinal, however I agree with the way you presented it. I also think that either way any new believer is going to have a tough time remaining faithful. Living through the trib with other christians (pre-wrath, late or post trib) or watching them leave in a pre-trib rapture will not fare well for them at all. With all of the deception in the world today its no wonder Jesus said "deceive the elect if that were possible" Praise God its not possible if we remain in faith
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 18, 2020 13:38:11 GMT -6
And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, 'If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,"let oneself" be marked or stamped with - [D4L's reply in Red, to specific points, for clarity. ]It's a choice, but with huge effects both ways. It's not like anyone gets the MARK, but really just thinks they are getting a COVID vaccine, or doesn't realize that they must worship the beast. It's mandatory!. No one is exempt - the verse you cite below here makes it unmistakably clear, it's ALL - like the Christ gave himself a ransom for ALL. Poor, rich, slave, freeman, powerful and servants, men and women, Jew & Gentile. He is making is crystal clear that it's not like an option to just politely decline, like some refuse to wear a mask. Most times, no one even says anything.
That's why It matters - because the choice is non-refundable, no exchanges, no re-do's, no cancellation clause. And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads,
causes: poieó this word seems to imply the same "causes one" to do something "makes one do something", like an influence it seems to me. to be given: dosin It is from didomi. And dosin is only used in the verse of Rev 13:16. I could not find the exact verse under the definition of didomi. I can only conclude it is give in the sense of putting on or placing, not giving as in giving a gift... so, let me give a huge controversial example: Ash Wednesday. From my catholic roots, it is a mark placed on the forehead that represents the start of a period of time of fasting or refraining from or giving up doing things for a period of time til Easter. The congregant allows the priest to mark their forehead with ash. Its a visible thing that represents something not really tangible, which is giving up something for God, and is form of works. This is a catholic thing, not a baptist thing for example. SO, the persons receiving this mark are a group of people. They are catholics. DO lutherans this? And this mark is associated with a group of people. JOhn sees that there is this group that receive this mark for "buying and selling." not gonna touch that rabbit trail yet. I have lived and worked for almost 13 years in a very Catholic culture. - Poland 99% cultural Catholics, about 20-20% practicing. This ash thing is practiced in the US by multiple groups, Catholic and Protestant - Lutheran, Methodists, Anglicans and Episcopalians. But I should add that this Mark is real and it's visible. It's also very interesting that people put this ash either on their forehead, or on the back of their hand. Way beyond creepy. For all the symbolism - it's the public display of piety by the pharisees, that Christ blasted. In the Vision we are seeing phrases or names to describe people, but its a grouping because John is seeing the completed picture and how these groups are affected by the Revealing/Truth/Word of God.. Those who dwell on earth Those who dwell in heaven Peoples, tongues tribes and nations (often used as a cluster group) Saints Bond-servants. A bond-servant is not a recipient of the mark, otherwise the Vision would have said so. Bond-servants are not "peoples"... If there is to be destruction or judgement etc in whatever form you can imagine, why is this comment made Rev 7 2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
followed by this: 3Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. but getting to the mark thing: I think it is an activity being described as those who are worshipping the image of the beast made by the "earth" If a person is worshipping the Lord God Almighty, they are NOT in this group. They are not receiving the mark of man. They are most liking Sealed bond-servants or men sealed on the forehead by God, not marked by the image makers of the earth.. I think we are seeing some of the results of those who are following lies. Are these people already marked with the number of a man and not God? I don't want to infer anything, but it seems like you are saying that Born again Christians cannot - [don't have the ability to take the mark]? Maybe I'm missing something/ misunderstanding. ?? From my post above - I went totally opposite from what most believe and what I actually believe, taking the hypothetical stance that the rapture happens at the end, so Christians would still be here. This might seem nitpicky, but it has often been said that Christians will be gone already - doesn't apply to Born-again Christians. The Mark is in the 2nd half of Daniel's week - Anti-Christ is revealed, has to have the logistics and technology in place to actually enforce this radical plan. ***Again, it's not like the mask, where you can just go 20 miles into the rural areas, and virtually no enforcement of Draconian mask mandates and closures. As for those left behind, -- let's use my nephews all raised in church for at least 20 years, - totally rebellious and far from God - make no profession of faith at all. They mock and are hostile to faith. So then the rapture happens, and Crazy Aunt Clara and grandma Marcy was right- [strangely missing, by the way]. So they become Christians. They still have a choice to take the Mark or Not. But not taking it, means they either starve to death, or are beheaded. Imho - I think it's interesting, but doesn't apply to us. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 18, 2020 20:10:00 GMT -6
let me get more caught up and address multiple people: d4L first: I make no deliniation of time of this is that, and here this and when it will, in regards to Revelation. I rest my heart UNINHIBITED by other mens' interpretation of pre or post or whatever regarding the Revealing of Christ to the whole world. This 2nd Advent and Reign will have tribulation for some and wrath/gnashing of teeth as lies are exposed, for others... In fact, I make it a rule that its the Lord (Holy Spirit) and I together in reading Revelation. I do not add other "books" to tell me what it means. I take the elements of the Vision and seek their individual meanings/examples within the Scriptures. Its like taking a single piece of a puzzle, holding up the picture of the puzzle to find that tiny piece that's in my hand to find where it fits in the big picture. So I have no rules saying I must fit Revelation into a missing 70th week scenario. I let Revelation tell me where big key events are like a rapture. Not me placing the rapture where I think it should be. Thus, every verse in Revelation is for study for past, present and future end times. I never assume certain verses are for those "left behind", because, what if that thinking is incorrect... Tell me who completely understood Isaiah 53 before it was fulfilled? This is not a personal attack, this is the way I try to avoid being placed in a theory box for pre, mid post trib etc etc...The 70th week to me has never proven itself to exist in the Book of Revelation so I quit trying to fit it there. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ boraddict , you said earlier that there is a consecutiveness about the mark... ch 13, then 14 then i think, 16... Why would a warning, if that is what ch 14 is, come AFTER the Mark event? I am suggesting this is more proof that the chapters are a handicap. Take the chapter breaks away and read the Vision by key words/matching layers. ch 14 to me is an overview much like ch 12. It is not always a chaiasm. Not every thing written in Revealtion can be made into a chiasm imho. I am not saying you are incorrect. I just don't see the things you are seeing when you place them in your chiasms. Yet, you are given a talent that is not the same talent as mine. That may be why I dont always reply to what you say. I did take your verse references on the Mark and checked them out and read what you wrote and took it to heart. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ venge , yes I am saying exactly what you asked me. We have The Sea (beast), I consider this a secular/a-religious mode of the world/ a-theistic... If you notice they are the ones that want to wage war with the Saints, and where it says a couple of key things, namely "this is the perseverence of the Saints..." The world loves the darkness and hates the Light... The Earth, to me, how I have come to see it is those who are of religious mind. I can not tell you if it includes all religions. This group is not waging war with the Saints but seems to impose a bunch of rules. ALso, seems to be the "creator" of things to worship, giving 'life' to it. The Earth and the Sea are two GENERAL groups. And then we have more descriptions of people. The groups are defined various ways and play out accordingly. The bond-servant is NOT the same description as the term "those who dwell on the earth".. There is a pattern that I am seeing in the vision and I am trying to explain it but seem to be failing. I used football fans to make my point, then I think I made a better point with those who receive the ash on their forehead at Ash Wednesday. And disciple4life , I did not know they could chose their hand instead of forehead. To me this is fitting exactly what it means to "Receive the Mark". A "good" catholic or what ever church goer practices Ash Wednesday will wear this mark and it is this mark that makes them FEEL like they are worthy. Its like a physical satisfaction/proof of worship. YET, John is told WHO does this because he is seeing a future event that hasn't happened on earht, but sees it from heaven's TIME. It is set in stone, so he "sees" who does this and why. It is NOT those who Follow the Lamb or have Faith as a Saint does. It appears to me the mark receivers already are suckedinto the lie of this manmade religious beast based on the groovy things of the secular beast.. Same with this Mark of Rev 13... It is not some vaccine, which I had to have proof of various vaccines traveling abroad years ago... it is not about stuff like this, nor DNA altering things. It is something to do with worship, like what mike , alluded to in the start of this thread. The Earthly beast is a picture of an event or thing or belief system that men of religious slant created and gave life to because it came about from appeasing the Secular (Sea) world. It is a way to "avoid" "persecution" which the Saints receive by standing in truth. It is a way to combine the world with "God" because man has no faith that the Lord can and will do ALL things. They really dont believe Jesus died for all, that Sin has been atoned for, that we have had the Most Holy annointed etc...(all the things listed in Daniel 9:24) |
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Post by venge on Dec 18, 2020 20:38:58 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, I have thought about this today and this is what I think. The statue that Nebuchadnezzar set up is given to us because of this future mark. We learn a great deal from it. If the people fell down to worship it, I'd assume that they are marked. Any that worshipped were spared their lives. When Shadrach, Meshak and Abed-Nego didnt, they did not get the mark as it were. I'm still thinking back to the basics. All these people either worship the beast, its name or its number and thereby are marked. So the false prophet causes anyone who does those 3 things to get marked. I'm not seeing it as "the mark" that is the issue...but what gives you the mark is the issue. If you don't worship the beast, its name or its number...I don't believe you can be marked. In Daniel, we see: This would be all the people, great, rich, poor, slave etc... The ones who worshipped lived, the others died. I believe they are our example. When the mark comes, believers need to be like them. We may get thrown into a fiery furnace or extreme persecution...but we are reminded that the son of God was with them in that fire...and he will be with us in ours.
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[Here again - one's position on pre-trib vs pre-wrath directly changes the way they answer this.]