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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 20, 2020 12:14:09 GMT -6
This discussion cut off and moved from the fig tree thread. The video is located there - Nataliealso, I want to make clear that I'm not discounting anything. The parable of the fig tree is an excellent marker to see where we are in time. I totally agree. I was just learning that when Jesus gave this parable, it was to the jews about jews, not the church. We're all about the gospel of salvation(now) where the jews are all about the gospel of the Kingdom(future).
mike , no that was not. I was going over that part when I copied the URL. Sorry!!! , so you are suggesting that the jew enters the kingdom without salvation or apart from salvation or some other way? Are you saying salvation and Kingdom are two different things? What is the gospel of the Kingdom? what do you do with this: 23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 20, 2020 12:29:15 GMT -6
also, I want to make clear that I'm not discounting anything. The parable of the fig tree is an excellent marker to see where we are in time. I totally agree. I was just learning that when Jesus gave this parable, it was to the jews about jews, not the church. We're all about the gospel of salvation(now) where the jews are all about the gospel of the Kingdom(future).
mike , no that was not. I was going over that part when I copied the URL. Sorry!!! , so you are suggesting that the jew enters the kingdom without salvation or apart from salvation or some other way? Are you saying salvation and Kingdom are two different things? What is the gospel of the Kingdom? what do you do with this: 23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
by no means, barbiosheepgirl, that which you quoted in Galations is to the church! We are all one in Jesus Christ! even a Jew who comes to Christ today is part of the church, a descendant of Abraham, yes, but neither jew nor greek, etc, etc.. But the Kingdom of Heaven is coming to the Earth and it was promised to the nation of Israel. They are waiting for their King/Messiah. As Andy Woods points out, when the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the "deal" was postponed for the Kingdom to be established in their time. Just like making a business deal today, if one party offers X and the other party says no, then the first party revokes the offer until the second party can come to agree with the deal. In this case it's when the nation Israel says "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord". Matt. 23:39
Please take time to watch Andy's bible studies. He can explain it much better than me and he takes the time to give minute details.
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 20, 2020 12:41:24 GMT -6
Gospel of the Kingdom: Matt. 4:23, Matt. 9:35, Matt. 24:14, Mark 1:14, Mark 1:15, Luke 16:16 Gospel of Salvation: Eph. 1:13, Rom. 1:16, 2 Thess. 2:14, 1 Cor. 15:2
When they were preaching that the "Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" they meant 'here is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven, believe it!', Now that Jesus has risen, we preach 'believe in Jesus, He has risen and will return to establish His Kingdom'.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 15:50:06 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, If you don't get a chance to watch it, I am about half way through and he definitely is not teaching that they enter the Kingdom without salvation in Christ. It's just a matter of focus. The Jews were/are looking for the Messiah to come and reign in Israel - for the Kingdom to come (an earthly one). But to be part of that Kingdom they must believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Those that don't will not be in the Kingdom.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 15:51:27 GMT -6
When they were preaching that the "Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" they meant 'here is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven, believe it!', Now that Jesus has risen, we preach 'believe in Jesus, He has risen and will return to establish His Kingdom'. Such a great, succinct way of explaining it. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 20, 2020 21:54:50 GMT -6
yeah, and so to to all the heirs of His Promise, those who are IN Him...
I have heard preaching of two gospels before and I flat out disagree with the premise.
Gal 3:29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Heb 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Eph 2: 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, (parable of the mustard seed, leaven, )
Hebrews 8, 9
Heb 12:22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire.
James 2:5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
Romans 4:16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
1Cor 1: 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Rev 1...from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
All of these verses, even if the audience were "jews" they were Followers of the NEW Covenant. His Will to be done is for ALL, the same way. The same goal: a temple complete not made with hands in a glorious Kingdom, complete and called The Kingdom because THRU HIM it is made, not man. Men dont make the kingdom, Jesus makes the Kingdom and those who are In Christ are partakers of this Kingdom. You can wait all day long for a messiah to save you from your enemies, make you kings of this planet earth, but this thinking is exactly what Jesus was trying to correct (in the Gospel accounts) They will be granted that for which they are seeking, but it will be to their desolation.. It is determined, even unto the end.
If you are seeking a messiah other than Jesus, you are deceived (in unbelief) and apart from God (1 John) and will not be not part of the Stone Kingdom on earth as it currently is in Heaven right now.
And, once one comes to Faith In Christ they fit all those verses sited as salvation verses, be it a grafted wild olive branch, or a natural olive branch regrafted. There in lies the point, regrafting needs to be done for having been cut off it laid in waste, dried up for kindling for a fire.
Are you suggesting, that the 4 Gospels of Jesus Christ are NOT for the gentile? I find that to be dangerous path to travel..Jesus is not one way with one group of people and another way with another. One group though given the oracles of God, and were designated so the world would KNOW the Messiah was the Messiah, are not above another in transgressions or sins.
Those looking for the messiah, are they looking in Nazareth? Bethleham? looking for a pregnant virgin? Are they counting 7 and 62 and 1 weeks? If so, what was their starting point? Or are they going to start counting 490 years from the construction of the 3rd temple? Maybe they are in the count now, for it seems there is plans for a 3rd temple. When was that decreed?
I sympathize with Paul's frustration.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2020 22:05:32 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , neither stormy nor Andy Woods is teaching two ways to salvation. Maybe you should take time to watch the first half of the video (and reread the comments in this thread). Turn him up to 1.5 speed, and he's still easy to understand.
Edit: Let me see if I can explain it better real quickly - Gospel means Good News. There was the Good News of the Kingdom. When Jesus was here, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15) The Good News! The Messiah is here! He has a kingdom to set up in Israel; He will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem! Faith in Him will give you a place in His Kingdom. He hadn't died and paid for their sins yet, but He would because He is the Messiah. They were to believe in what they knew about Him at the time. Just like in the OT, they were to have faith in Him for salvation - nothing more, nothing less.
Then we have what we know today as the Gospel - The Good News that Jesus, Messiah, died for our sins and rose again on the third day. He's coming again and will bring that Kingdom to earth. You can be part of it spiritually today, but in the near future it will be a physical kingdom in Jerusalem where He will sit on David's throne just as promised. But that physical kingdom got postponed because the majority rejected Him (the leaders especially). But that was all in the plan so many more will come to Him.
It's still the Good News that all you need is faith in Messiah.
(I'm going to try and move this discussion to a separate thread.)
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Post by Natalie on Nov 21, 2020 10:37:41 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , you said "Are you suggesting, that the 4 Gospels of Jesus Christ are NOT for the gentile?" I know I am answering for stormyknight , but it's something that has been rolling around in my head for the past couple of months. The whole Bible is for Jews and Gentiles. But, the whole Bible was not written to Jews and Gentiles. Each book or letter has a specific audience. Even within the Gospels there are different audiences. Sometimes Jesus is speaking to the public, sometimes to Gentiles, sometimes to the leaders, sometimes to His closest disciples. We need to consider the audience when we consider application. In thinking of Matthew - It is clearly written to the Jews. It is packed full of their OT to show that Jesus is their Messiah. In contrast, the book of John has much more directed to the Church (like John 13-17). So, while we can apply much of Matthew to our lives, it is not directed to Gentiles. Like the book of Hebrews - clearly a Jewish book. Directed to Jews. Full of OT. Yet we (Gentiles) read it because we get truth from it. If a Jew were to pick up a NT today, where would they start reading? Matthew. And if they are seeking the truth, then all sorts of light bulbs should go on for them. (2 Corinthians 3:16) In contrast, think of a Gentile who has no background in the OT. Would they miss some of the meaning? Probably. Should they read it? YES! but they should realize that some of it is not necessarily for them. Just like the Church should realize the same thing. Is Matthew 24 speaking of or to the Church? (not directly) That's one of the questions answered in the video. The whole OT is the same. We must remember that not all of it is for us to apply to our lives, but we can get truth from it. We see who God is and what His plan is and how He wants us to live. I started a thread on 1 Peter because of this very topic. We can apply much of 1 Peter to our lives, but I counted at least 20 references/allusions to the OT in that short book. It's very Jewish. (Not too mention, Peter tells us the audience is Jewish believers)
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2020 15:18:54 GMT -6
I think you create for yourself a stumbling block when you separate God’s children into groups
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Post by Natalie on Nov 21, 2020 15:50:39 GMT -6
Well, I could very well say that I think you create a stumbling block if you don't understand the differences.
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Post by mike on Nov 21, 2020 18:51:07 GMT -6
Why must we insist on this or that. I see both points being made and see no issue with both at the same time.
It is a matter of perspective.
God made us spiritual beings, living in a physical world. Even forever we are distinguishable as people groups (Rev 5:9, Rev 13:7, Rev 14:6)
They are all one, yet distinct. Its both my brother & sister. And it may not only be both but all three, four.
The Lord is opening eyes everywhere! He is truly coming soon.
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 23, 2020 10:18:14 GMT -6
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem," This is a spiritual city, the city of the Living God.
and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, all spiritual beings
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, the church, having been made anew into spirit beings
and to God, the judge of all, God is spirit
and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Old Testament prophets and spiritual leaders? All now spirit beings
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, Definitely spirit
and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." Heb.12:22 The sprinkled blood is what makes all this possible as Jesus had to die in order that we may live.
I realize we all know this stuff, but how often do we think about it? I mean really visualize it? The Jews were/are expecting a physical earthly Kingdom which God promised them. They will receive it. Israel will be the head of all nations in the millennium.
BUT! As the book of Hebrews points out, "you" the Jews, will have come to Mount Zion and it will be a spiritual city. Can they see it? I don't know. I can only assume one could at least feel it's presence. Remember though, that one must be born again;
"Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” " John 3:3
But as 'born again' children of God;
"Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12
Why is this? Isn't it because we are still flesh? This is what the Jews in the first century would have witnessed if they had accepted Jesus as their Messiah and King. But they were thinking in human terms of a human kingdom;
"“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isa. 55:8-9
They just couldn't comprehend it all. But, now that we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us, we "see" in part.
Now, what's the deal with the Jews and Gentiles?
" I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek." Rom. 1:16
Jesus came to the nation of Israel first and gave them the good news of the Kingdom of God. They rejected it. So, then on to the Greek!(Gentile). To the Jews it was the Kingdom that He promised with Him as King, to the Gentiles it is the promise of salvation if only we believe that He is the King.
Once we believe, then we are no longer Jew or Gentile or slave or free or whatever;
"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
"Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12
Are we separate groups? As humans on this earth, yes, but there is only one path to salvation and that is Jesus Christ! Once we believe, we are one group, neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, OR EVEN MALE OR FEMALE!!
So really, there is only one Gospel, or Good News, and that is of Salvation. To the Jews in the first century, Jesus taught in words that Jews understood and they understood a kingdom view. Once we understood that Jesus rose from the dead, the real kicker to the passion week, we realize there is more to the picture than just an earthly kingdom or nation of Israel. That Jesus is who He says He is. We believe and are accepted of God and given the Holy Spirit, marked and sealed.
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Post by venge on Nov 23, 2020 14:27:55 GMT -6
Well, I could very well say that I think you create a stumbling block if you don't understand the differences. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God
That includes anyone, Jew or not. All part of the same family, all as sons of God. Moses, Noah, Issac, Paul and me. Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me (Christ Jesus).Perhaps you dont understand what I am saying because of the way I worded it? |
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