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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 20, 2020 7:16:02 GMT -6
Rev 4
1After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”
2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.
Rev 17
1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”
3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.
Someone tell me at what point in the Vision was John not in the Spirit so that he would have to be carried away again by it when shown the judgement of the great harlot?
and, too, there are times when he is seeing heaven opened... if John went thru the open door in rev 4:1, how is it he sees heaven open at other times such as in rev 19:11?
Just sorting out locations of where John is in the Vision of the great Revealing..
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Post by venge on Sept 20, 2020 9:12:33 GMT -6
Much like Ezekiel 1 1. In the spirit 2. Heavens were opened 3. Saw visions Ezekiel and John were not the only ones to be “in the spirit” when given a symbolic vision. Ezekiel, Daniel and Paul were not pulled out by force to avoid wrath in their scenarios. There has never been a correlation between seeing visions in the spirit and the resurrection of the dead preceding the rapture either from my understanding. Paul was caught up to the third heaven, if he was raptured - he’d be changed, yet he wasn’t. He was martyred and he wasn’t close to the DotL to need to be taken. Edit: Just found something interesting barbiosheepgirl , God constantly uses prophets throughout the Bible to make himself known "in a vision" speaking to them in "a dream." To answer your question, except the very beginning of Ch 1, John is always in the spirit as he gives the description. The change from Rev 1 to Rev 4 was to see more things, but he never leaves the spirit. The change in Rev 17 appears to be from the spirit in God's throne, to the spirit in the wilderness. He is still in the spirit, but the location of the vision has changed. A door to heaven opens relates to the heavens being opened. These are opened many times in scripture. Stephen saw the heavens opened, John the Baptist saw it opened for Christ etc... You pose a good question for Rev 19 though... |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 20, 2020 19:09:47 GMT -6
0h, oops, I forgot about this part too:
This is before the letters to the churches (if that is the true timeframe) when this is written by John:
Rev 1
9I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
So again, this is interesting. Three times he is either confirming he is in the spirit when certain things happen, or, he is in and out of the Spirit (assuming then, some of this vision is a dream?),
and why make these claims more than once? Why do that?
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Post by venge on Sept 20, 2020 22:18:16 GMT -6
0h, oops, I forgot about this part too: This is before the letters to the churches (if that is the true timeframe) when this is written by John: Rev 1
9I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”So again, this is interesting. Three times he is either confirming he is in the spirit when certain things happen, or, he is in and out of the Spirit (assuming then, some of this vision is a dream?), and why make these claims more than once? Why do that? Obviously, he wasn’t raptured 3 times each. It also doesn’t make sense he’d be raptured and still be in the spirit and yet placed back on earth afterwards. He never receives white linen when in the throne room, so those who think he’s raptured...where is his crown and white clothing in the vision? Isn’t it possible that John tells us he’s in the spirit multiple times to drive home a simple point? It’s a vision and visions are understood by not seeing with your eye. But hey...I’m probably wrong. I don’t have a YouTube channel and I don’t fit the status quo ☹️ |
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Post by mike on Sept 21, 2020 8:02:27 GMT -6
I think Venge has it right
I know of no other vision when I read through the bible that are seen with human eyes. Although angels seem to be seen by natural eyes.
Dan 2:1, Dan 3:25, Dan 4:5, 10, 13, Dan 5:5, Dan 7:1 - among many others!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 21, 2020 9:07:33 GMT -6
Just for the record, I was not implying a rapture = in the spirit. What seems to be with the Vision of the Unveiling is how the vision lines up or stacks up upon itself like layers. I say this in regard to Rev 7 namely because John hears the Sealed, then he sees a multitude.. Yet later in Rev 14 there seems to me more detail of the same thing. So when I came across "carried away in the Spirit", it was as if a cluster of reference points were put together for me.
It is very possible that John was in and out of the Spirit. And, that sometimes he does see something physical. Ive tried to "see" that in the writings, but haven't yet, then again I am me not John, and may be blind still until it gets revealed to me to understand it.
I am well aware of the issue/controversy among watchers of the order of events, because at ch 4 he writes "after these things" after writing about the letters.
Looking at this part of the vision causes me to question how this Hebrew told the account, even though written in the Greek, his style would have been that of his tradition, no? But too, John, being in the Spirit, will not see things as they are on earth, but rather in Heaven's time sequence..
So I look at the key things (overviews) and what if this is how it really played out:
9I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day: (colon placed here, meaning the title of this whole visions is "I was in the SPirit on the Lord's day when Jesus revealed to me His Plan")
I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”
2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.
ALSO
he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness;
(and I saw this, yadda yadda about the harlot)
His intro and conclusion say the same things. Makes me want to line them up.
and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
6And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
7“And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
10And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11“Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. 20“As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
I could go on lining up a progression of events, but maybe this makes my point.
I dont expect anyone to agree with me. Yet the question still remains: why does he need to say at least three times "in the Sprit" when he says it in the beginning? For me these are markers that line up somehow. This help place in linear order what John was "seeing" in circular/4 dimensional order...
-blessings!
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Post by venge on Sept 21, 2020 18:08:02 GMT -6
I see what you’re getting at.
And...I don’t know lol
I see them broken up, but I’m not sure I’m right.
1. Spiritual condition of the churches
2. things in heaven
3. things in the gentile nations
That’s a question I’ve never heard anyone ask. Have you googled it?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 21, 2020 18:46:50 GMT -6
If I could google Jesus'answrrs how glorious a day that would be!
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Post by stormyknight on Nov 23, 2020 15:46:57 GMT -6
Maybe this could help. When you dream in your sleep, are you there, 'wherever', physically? No, you are there in spirit. I made a list awhile back of verses that refer to the spirit in Man.
The spirit of Man
“The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, searching out his inmost being.” Prov. 20:27
“An oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:” Zech. 12:1
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7
“But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.” Job 32:8
“Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Thess. 5:23
“Why spend money on that which is not bread, and your labor on that which does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of foods.” Isa. 55:2
“the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Eccl. 12:7b
“When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.” Psalm 146:4
“Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:” Zech. 12:1
“While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59
“All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth?” Eccl. 3:20-21
John and Daniel and Paul and everyone else who witnessed things in the spirit just were not there physically in person. I would contend that, no, they were not raptured.
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