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Post by gregt on Jun 4, 2017 19:56:19 GMT -6
This verse is probably the chief reason given for the pre trib rapture:
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Disregarding the fact that 1 Thessalonians 3:3 and 4 clearly states that we are appointed to tribulation, clearly making a distinction between tribulation and wrath...
Why is it that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 does not apply to the left behind saved? What I am getting at is that the pre trib rapture theory still has saved people facing the wrath of God.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 4, 2017 20:15:40 GMT -6
The direct audience of I Thessalonians was to believers in the church age, and they are clearly saved from the Wrath of God, and are also clearly involved in tribulations, lower-case t, at all times. The people who will be saved during the Tribulation, big-T, are of a different age than we are, and some of the rules will have changed--namely, they were not saved from the Wrath of the Tribulation period.
BUT. . . .
There is also the question of whether wrath, big or little W, MUST refer to the Tribulation period, or whether that wrath could also or alternatively be referring to the Lake of Fire. In which case, ALL believers are saved from the Lake of Fire, and the wrath of God's ultimate punishment there.
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Post by gregt on Jun 4, 2017 20:53:11 GMT -6
When you say they are under different rules do you mean like a different covenant?
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 4, 2017 21:24:36 GMT -6
When you say they are under different rules do you mean like a different covenant? It remains to be seen whether God will make an additional covenant with them. Clearly, their salvation is by the same methodology as ours (and that has been the same method since Adam, believing on the Redeemer for Salvation). There are many many covenants in the Bible, and God has often made them with people or groups of people during times of transition from one era to another. Covenants in the Bible include, and this may not be all of them: Creation Covenant Marriage Covenant (every married couple who covenants their marriage with God) Adamic Covenant Noaich Covenant Abrahamic Covenant Mosaic Covenant Palestinian Covenant Davidic Covenant New Covenant Most of these are made at a time of transition from one age to another. The Davidic Covenant may not be, the Palestinian Covenant may not be. But there were changes even for those two. Will God make another covenant for the people saved in the Tribulation period? I do not know, but it would not surprise me. The Two Witnesses will be on the scene and will clearly be able to speak for God. But one clear difference between Tribulation Saints and Church-Age Saints is, that the Church Saints skip the Tribulation time on earth, and the Tribulation Saints obviously have to endure it. Though some of the judgments will not directly affect them, such as the plague of demonic locusts. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 4, 2017 21:34:08 GMT -6
Also, regarding wrath, I reread Revelation 4-6, and confirmed what I thought was the case--the word "wrath" is not encountered until the 6th seal is opened. Which to me implies that the first 5 seals are not considered the Wrath of God. Which also means, that I Thessalonians 5:9 is fully compatible with a 5th/6th seal Rapture event, as regarding the "wrath" issue.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 4, 2017 21:37:58 GMT -6
This verse is also telling, I do believe. . .
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
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Post by gregt on Jun 4, 2017 21:51:31 GMT -6
Whoa Jim! You do realize that the pre trib rapture is predicated on the wrath in 1 Thess. 5:9 being the same as the Great Tribulation. You seriously sound like a pre wrath advocate with that one post.
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Post by whatif on Jun 4, 2017 22:00:09 GMT -6
Also, regarding wrath, I reread Revelation 4-6, and confirmed what I thought was the case--the word "wrath" is not encountered until the 6th seal is opened. Which to me implies that the first 5 seals are not considered the Wrath of God. That is my thought, as well, watchmanjim. |
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Post by whatif on Jun 4, 2017 22:02:33 GMT -6
My thought, gregt, is that the 7-year tribulation period would quite possibly start at the trumpet judgments--that the opening of the seals may very well be before the 7 years starts. It seems to me the opening of the seals is more of a revealing of what will be happening in the lead-up to God's judgment. A conqueror goes out to conquer, a great war begins, a terrible economic disaster occurs, and a multi-faceted period of death occurs around the world. Persecution of believers is rampant. This is quite possibly foretelling events that will be occurring, but events that are not in themselves part of the wrath judgment.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 4, 2017 22:27:28 GMT -6
Whoa Jim! You do realize that the pre trib rapture is predicated on the wrath in 1 Thess. 5:9 being the same as the Great Tribulation. You seriously sound like a pre wrath advocate with that one post. I was always taught that the Great Tribulation was the last 3.5 years of the (entire 7-year) Tribulation. What I believe is that we are taken out Pre-Wrath, yes, and that that wrath begins in the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation. However, there is no compulsory reason I see why the 7 seals must be included within the 7 years of the Tribulation, although that idea has been widely held and taught, and was what I believed too until recently. I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE. However, this timeline of the Rapture occurring around the 6th Seal makes sense to me, though again, I do not know for sure. Pre-wrath means "before wrath." It could mean immediately before the wrath, several years before the wrath, or any other amount of time before the wrath. So yes, I am pre-wrath-- the question we originally had was whether the 7 seals were officially part of the wrath or not. |
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Post by gregt on Jun 4, 2017 22:48:43 GMT -6
Okay, I think you have the seven seals starting earlier than what I was thinking.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 4, 2017 23:24:06 GMT -6
Again, I'm not sure when they start. But the timeline rt has been sharing has put seals 1-5 prior to the Rapture, though we have also debated: Prior by how long a time? So, my recent hunch I shared was that maybe the first seal was opened with Trump's mission to the Middle East and Europe. If so--watch out, because that means the second seal will be right around the corner.
But this is a hunch, and not provable fact.
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Post by rt on Jun 20, 2017 19:48:44 GMT -6
When I think of wrath associated with the end times, I think of the obvious: the bowl judgments that have God's wrath added to them and poured out on the wicked. I do not see that what happens at the opening of the sixth seal is wrath itself, only people on earth suggesting that wrath has come, I talk about this more in my thread on a revised pre trib rapture view. I do not believe that those who come to Christ during the first half of the 70th week will suffer God's wrath.
Here we see in Rev. 14, that those who worship the beast drink of the wine of the wrath of God. So we see who the wrath is aimed at:
In chapter 15 we see that the seven plagues "finish" the wrath of God, here we see what the instrument of God's wrath is (the seven plagues)
But before that wrath is poured out we see a vision of those who triumphed over the beast standing on the "sea of glass" mixed with fire, here we see those delivered from wrath.
I believe these to be the tribulation saints. John sees their future resurrection. Earlier in chapter 14 we have a proclamation:
These are those same saints, who will die as martyrs. Their death is a blessing, they rest from their labor, but they also are kept from God's wrath by dying before the wrath of God is poured out on the rest of mankind. The 144,000 are also spared the wrath as God protects them (The woman of Rev 12, who flees into the wilderness). We see them in Chapter 14, standing victorious with the Lamb on Mount Zion. (You will note that this is on earth not in heaven, the 144,000 are mortals preserved through the 70th week)
Lastly we see that with the final bowl poured out, the wrath of God is finished. I think the bowls will occur very near the end of the 70th week, and may occur over a short period of time, as the plagues that fell upon Egypt did before Israel was delivered. (There is a lot of correlation between the two events)
Those saved during the first half of the 70th week, will die as martyrs before God's wrath is poured out on His enemies, their death will be their means of deliverance. While the 144,000 will be protected supernaturally by God in the "wilderness". Yes they will endure the difficulties brought upon the earth when the trumpeters blast their judgments, those judgments are not God's wrath, they are a means of chastisement, which I believe will cause many to repent and come to faith as the two witnesses testify, and the 144,000 also. (Remember they are sealed before the trumpets sound.) I believe that the 1/3 of people killed when the armies of the sixth trumpet carry out their deed, will in fact be the tribulation saints.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
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