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Post by yardstick on Jul 13, 2020 19:09:04 GMT -6
Hi rt , I like your observation of Rev. 9:15. I have always had the understanding that a tail is an illegal government and the link in this 2nd woe of Chapter 9 applies to the false godhead of Rev. 16:12-14. This wicked godhead gathers everyone to the great battle and it seems reasonable that they would engage in killing saints as you have suggested. I am going to look at this further; great find, thanks. Bora, The tail that sweeps 1/3rd is falsehood taught to the people under the guise of light. The falsehood was believed by 1/3rd of the people and caused them to fall as sin does to a man. I have to say, I like this. There is a clear indication of a definition of the tail. It also helps clarify that there can certainly be more than a single interpretation that fits. We have discussed this before here, where we have noticed that there may be multiple understandings (like layers) to scripture passages. |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 13, 2020 19:49:52 GMT -6
This little horn is slain. In rev 13 it is not a horn that is healed but head. I am on my phone and walking and will find my notes later. Hi Barb, where do you see the little horn as slain. The Chapter 13 head; I like that. Venge, we need some clarification  . |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 13, 2020 19:52:01 GMT -6
Amen, man of non-metric measurement
Amen, rt.
Question rt, since I am reviewing some of your insights, but also came about Dan 7 (and 8) independently over my morning coffee only to find you posting later in the day. Is Dan 7 and 8 a similar template to Rev where there is a broader prophecy, then a more detailed prophecy?
Earlier I mentioned the horn and head thing. Let me put two verses out here, one from Daniel and one from Rev..
Dan 7:24‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Rev 13:3I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast [ a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.]
The reason I ask is because Dan 7 takes this horrible beast and says this which makes me think this is applying to our current (last 40 years or so).
25‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
It seems to me from Daniel 7 passages that this "little horn" being different from the previous horns and subdues the 3, leads to the next kingdom, the EVERLASTING one. We are either in this struggle or about to be in it. Plus, we have this court scene. Seems to me some form of Return of Christ's return because we are told His return is about "judgement."
But do you see that in Rev it is a HEAD that is healed from a fatal wound, NOT a little horn. And, even so, those who marvel are still marveling at the Sea beast, not this "healed" head. Are these passages the same event or are they about something else?
Daniel 8 being the visions of the Ram and Goat we do get interpretation. We are told Media/Persia and we are told Greece.
nice to be in dialogue on this as physical events are unfolding all around..
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 13, 2020 19:55:34 GMT -6
boraddict , here is the little horn slain: Dan 7 8“While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
11“Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast(forth beast)was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
26‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
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Post by venge on Jul 14, 2020 7:04:15 GMT -6
Also, how do you reconcile Rev 1:19? Common theological opinion is that chapters 1:1-1:19 are historic, 2-4 are present, and 5-end are future. If this is true, how does Antiochus et al, from above fit as a prophecy of the future, when Revelation 12 was written after? Lastly, note Daniel 8:10 as quoted above: Are you making the distinction that the host are angels, and the stars are Israel? Or the other way around? There are many places in scripture where angels are equated to or represented by stars (including Rev 1:20) Okay yardstick, so as far as Rev 1:19 goes, I do not believe that what John is being told to write pertains necessarily to future events, though it includes those, but rather it pertains to the revelation itself. John is instructed to write down everything he sees and send it to the seven churches: • Verse 19- the things that you have seen, which are and what will take place- all pertain to the revelation itself, what John had seen to that point; verses 1-17. • What he was seeing; verses 18-20. • And what he would see after that point, which would comprise all the rest of the revelation. Not all that John would write down concerned future events as I believe some commentators wrongly assume, it merely pertains to what John would be shown concerning Christ’s return to earth, some things described may have occurred in the past but are relevant to His second coming in the future and are included in the revelation. Therefore when John is told to write what would “take place after these things”, he was being told to write down what would follow concerning the revelation itself, what he “sees”. I have explained this before somewhere here on this site, but for the sake of understanding and because I can't begin to know where I put it, I will repeat it here let's say the revelation is a movie. John is told to write down everything he sees that happens in the movie. He is first shown the beginning of the movie then told to write it down what he had seen, then he is shown more of the movie and while he is watching he is reminded again to write it down what he was seeing, then he is told to write down what he sees after those things, when he is taken to a different location to watch the rest of the movie. SOme of the events in the movie are present to John's time (the letters to the churches) some of the things occured in John's past (the Lamb entering as if slain AKA the resurrection of Christ) and most of what John would see are future events. This being said, I do not think that Antiochus fits into future events, only in that he serves as a type and pattern for the Antichrist. I believe that John was given a timeline which included events from his past (Daniel/ Antiochus) in order to give context to the vision he was being shown in Revelation 12. He is shown this because in the future, events will be very similar. Jesus Himself points to the prophecies of Daniel in regard to the future Abomination of Desolation. Which is a pivitol point in the 70 weeks prophecy, a prophecy which speaks of the restoration of the nation of Israel. This event is what will begin the great tribulation and the persecution of the woman and the rest of her children. This is why Israel flees to the wilderness, and what begins the restoration process. I undertsnad what the common theological opinion is, trust me I have studied many views over the last 15 or so years. I just happen to disagree with them. You can decide for yourself, I will completely understand if you disagree, you are more than free to do so and I won't think less of you if you do. Okay lastly Daniel 8:10 What I am saying is that the hosts and stars are both Israel. So we are given an interpretation in scripture. We don't have to guess : The word "hosts" in Hebrew refers to armies or soldiers, while "stars" can mean "youths" or "progeny". This is shown in the interpretation Daniel is given, "mighty men" could be soldiers and the "holy people" is clearly a referece to the faithful among the nation of Israel. Angels are sometimes referred to as stars, then sometimes scripture means stars, as in the star of the night sky. All three of these types of "stars"are used in the revelation so it is understandable that some would come to the conclusion that the stars here are angelic entities. Amen RT. Though John is told to write the things that are future....is everything from that point on future? I say no! Why? Not just the facts that you point out in why the seals are opened (at least seals 1-4, possibly the 5th), but in order to show future events...God must explain to the readers what it all means. If I were to say, I will show yardstick the future...there will be 7 Trumpets followed by 7 Bowls.... Yardstick will say...Trumpets? for what? Well...before I get to the Trumpets, I have to explain who are saved from them....so then I need to explain the 7th seal. Wait if I explain the 7th seal..I need to explain the other 6...ok, let me do that too. So now I explain to him the 7 seals and the 7 Trumpets (Future) and the 7 bowls (Future), but he now asks if there were 7 seals, what were they on? So now I explain the seals were opened and they were on a scroll. Well who opened them? How did he get the scroll? Who had the scroll before he received it? All of it past events made to explain a transition of events to explain the future event God is about to show John. So when it was said in Revelation 4:1 Those things were future events but also past events. God doesn't do that halfway. He must explain what has happened in order to explain the future. This is precisely why we see God sitting on the throne and not Christ. God commands the red horse, white horse, dappled horse etc ...and its not till Christ comes in after he is slain (past event) that John witnesses, that he gets the scroll and with it, the ability to control the white horse, red horse, black horse that God previously commanded. The transition is no different than a ruler like Pharaoh transition rulership to his son. With it, he inherits the military, the people and the land to do what he wants with it. It is difficult to understand and I get it. ALL OF US here have been taught 1 model when we first entered a Church. That model has been engrained into our being. It is ALWAYS fresh and always explained to us a certain way. So sometimes its hard to look at an object and see its back is not the as its front. Why is it said that this particular book is understood by the wise? Are not all books understood by the wise? Perhaps that was just a saying of respect or perhaps a saying showing grace - IDK. But this book deserves very careful reading and interpretation. |
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Post by venge on Jul 14, 2020 7:30:31 GMT -6
This little horn is slain. In rev 13 it is not a horn that is healed but head. I am on my phone and walking and will find my notes later. Hi Barb, where do you see the little horn as slain. The Chapter 13 head; I like that. Venge, we need some clarification . As barbiosheepgirl pointed out, the horn is slain but the head is healed. Also notice, its head that is healed is "one of its heads". A man doesn't have many heads so lets rule out a man of sin coming back to life with many heads. This particular head is of the beast with 7 heads. All 7 heads are slain. 5 were slain by the time John was shown Revelation. One existed and 1 was his future. The healing of the head that was slain becomes the 8th head. So, it is one of the 7 heads that was thought to be killed but comes back AS IF it were healed. 5 of the 7 heads were all known Kingdoms and each of these Kingdoms was ruled by a man. Men serve as heads of state to a degree, the spokesman for that nation. The nation itself also serves as a head of itself in how it represents itself almost as if it has life of its own. America is not a living being yet it does breathe, its known, it has certain qualities found not in other nations. It description matches its peoples and culture. Yet, America is not an actual living organism. Much like the image that causes men to die as if it were alive and breathed air. Its a model for Obey and do what we say or die. The nation cannot say that for its not a living organism, but the inhabitants of that nation and what it turns into can. A Nation for example like absolute monarchy, the King could make a decree saying you will love this country and do what we say or you will be punished. Failure to do those things, though you may disagree, they may go against your religious faith....you do them or get punished. It would be as if the nation itself, who you refuse to worship, is punishing you - but its not. Its the people of that nation. Daniel specifies that the heads of the first 3 beast of the sea are all kingdoms ruled by a man. I'd assume by that, the resurrected 8th head is no different. Its resurrection implying old laws, old culture or old way of governance not used today, could be used or something to that fact. If we were to bring back Nazi type laws and call it something else....we would be resurrecting something dead and using it to destroy. All of this is bought in falsehood from a speaker within this kingdom. The head (kingdom) comes back, which was formally slain and reintroduced into society. Within this kingdom, it will have a speaker (the mouth speaking great things). A kingdom doesn't become a great orator on its own. 2 beasts, one of the sea and one of the earth. Remember that verse boraddict that I posted about the one who teaches falsehood is the tail? We will have a beast of the earth, known as the false prophet, emerge. It is he that teaches falsehood and leads this kingdom into the gutter. |
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Post by rt on Jul 14, 2020 9:18:35 GMT -6
Amen, man of non-metric measurement Amen, rt. Question rt, since I am reviewing some of your insights, but also came about Dan 7 (and 8) independently over my morning coffee only to find you posting later in the day. Is Dan 7 and 8 a similar template to Rev where there is a broader prophecy, then a more detailed prophecy? Earlier I mentioned the horn and head thing. Let me put two verses out here, one from Daniel and one from Rev.. Dan 7:24‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Rev 13:3I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast [ a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.] The reason I ask is because Dan 7 takes this horrible beast and says this which makes me think this is applying to our current (last 40 years or so). 25‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’It seems to me from Daniel 7 passages that this "little horn" being different from the previous horns and subdues the 3, leads to the next kingdom, the EVERLASTING one. We are either in this struggle or about to be in it. Plus, we have this court scene. Seems to me some form of Return of Christ's return because we are told His return is about "judgement." But do you see that in Rev it is a HEAD that is healed from a fatal wound, NOT a little horn. And, even so, those who marvel are still marveling at the Sea beast, not this "healed" head. Are these passages the same event or are they about something else? Daniel 8 being the visions of the Ram and Goat we do get interpretation. We are told Media/Persia and we are told Greece. nice to be in dialogue on this as physical events are unfolding all around.. Lots to chew on here, I will give it some thought and get back to you when I have time. |
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Post by venge on Jul 14, 2020 16:01:14 GMT -6
You know why they followed after the beast and not the head right? The head just functions as the rising of an old kingdom. But the kingdom was previously slain because of its wickedness. The people are glorifying wickedness in this risen kingdom instead or rejecting it. That is “following” the beast. Christ kingdom isn’t here yet, but we look forward to it with a new heaven and new earth.
What did it mean to be pleased to live in Babylon? Roman? Grecian?
Knowing all the atrocities happening, did people turn a blind eye, did they participate or did they rebuke it, removing themselves from all wickedness?
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Post by rt on Jul 16, 2020 14:03:37 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, Okay going to try to tackle your questions, here goes: The short answer I think is yes, sort of. I think Daniel 7 is a more overarching look at the four kingdoms, focusing on the final kingdom. While Daniel 8 focuses in on only one of the kindoms, that of Greece. In Daniel 7 the kindom that correlates to Daniel 8 is the third kingdom, the Leopard with four wings and four heads, the kingdom of Greece which in Daniel 8 is depicted as a Goat whose horn was broken off and four horns grew up in its place, and the little horn (a fifth) IMO represents Antiochus IV. So as I look at these various passages, I am inclined to conclude firstly that the beast of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7, and it's "little horn" that subdues three other horns is not the same as the "little horn" of the goat in Daniel 7, however the Character of these two kings is very similar. I think that is the point. That the final "little horn" will be very similar to the "little horn" of Greece. The little horn of Daniel 7 I believe is a description of the Antichrist or the "mouth" of the beast in Revelation 13. So yes leading to the return of Christ. Yes, I do see that, and I admit I am somewhat confused by it and do not truly understand it all. The description of the beast in Revelation 13 ecompasses the same imagery used in Daniel 7 to describe the four beasts that end in the return of Christ. Leopard, bear, lion with 7 heads, the beast of Daniel 7 also add up to seven heads. One of a lion, one of a bear, and four heads of the leopard and the final head bearing the teeth of iron. If we look to that imagery we can deduce that these same kindoms also match the succesion of kingdoms in Nebechudnazzer's dream of the collosus from Daniel 2. Golden head = Babylon, Silver = Medo Persia, Bronze = Greece, Iron = Rome, Iron and clay = final kingdom. Daniel's vision seems to depict the two final kingdoms, the legs and feet as one. As you point out, Revelation 13 depicts the heads of the beast, singular. This beast seems to be an amalgum of the beasts in Daniel 7 as I pointed out already. These "heads" have blasphemous names written on them, and they have 10 horns with crowns. With one of its heads fatally wounded, and then revived. Is this a nation that is revived? A nation that was destroyed and that is now rising up from its ashes to resume its standing in the world. Or is it a leader of men who appears to have been ressurected from the dead? It appears that the world is enamoured by this beast because it was dead and was healed. This revived "head" is given a "mouth". This to me at least would represent the antichrist. He is not one of the horns. But again we aren't left in the dark Revelation 17:1- 13 talks about the scarlet beast with 7 heads and ten horns, which I believe is the same beast from Revelation 13 described in more detail. Here we do get an interpretation concerning the beast So the seven heads are seven mountains (nations?) and seven kings (of those nations?) The beast which was and is not (who received the fatal head wound) is also an 8th king who was one of the seven. The ten horns are 10 other kings without a kigdom, but who recieve authority as kings with the beast So the head that is wounded is a nation and a king, a person, in Revelation 17 that would be the beast who was and is not, who according to verse 11 is also the 8th king. He was one of the seven (who was), then was not (fatally wounded) and will come again ( healed) as one of 8th. This is why the earth marvels in wonder because he was wounded fatally and comes back to life from the abyss somehow altered. The word "different" in the passage above and the one below, means "changed" or "altered" in the Hebrew according to Strong's. These passages all describe the Antichrist, who in Daniel's vision in chapter 7 is the little horn who usurps three others Perhaps Daniel gives us more perspective on how this little horn becomes one of the heads? We can presume that the final kindom only has one head in Daniel's vision, not many. One head with 10 horns. Out of that head (Rome) an 11th horn arises after uprooting 3 of the others. So that horn becomes a king of a nation presumably rome, one of the nations represented by the heads on the beast in Revelation 13 and 17, the one that recieves the fatal would and is healed. So what Daniel sees is the broad picture. That combines the final two kingdoms of Nebbuchadnezzer"s dream, the legs and toes. What John sees is the final picture focusing on the "feet". So the 11th horn becomes the fatally wounded head and the 8th king? I am not sure, just trying to logically put it together. Tying Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17 together is a tough one for me. In the end at least as far as I am concerned I don't need to fully understand it all. This is just me guessing. I may or may not be heading in the right direction here. If I am, then we might be able to look at the Roman empire or the extention of it that exists today and find a king or leader who rose to power by uprooting three of it's previous kings. That King would become one of the seven heads, who will be fatally wounded and come back to life to be the 8th king who we know as the antichrist. Then again maybe not  Thanks for the questions which get me digging into the word!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 18, 2020 17:54:51 GMT -6
In light of the brazenlaver thread, I am wondering here about this bolded verse above being the media. It is tough for me to say such a thing because people can get very itchy about it. But what "nation" that was made desolate, fatally wounded by all accounts (spiritually, and physcially) by 70 ad, temple destroyed etc., and now is again? (enter 1948)
this one thinking in modern day terms again gets me asking, how can kings be called kings but do not have kingdoms, but receive authority as kings? Looking at the various strongholds of the deep state we are looking at fed reserve, SEE I A, Ef Be EYE, etc.. and looking at the undercovering of the Ukraine stuff, this tells me some very important entities have been given a status as kings so as to gather the world into one. I am using this thread and the one brazen laver has active. no time to link it.. its under the prophecy discussion.
The only place were we see the actual word antichrist is in 1 John. All the rest of the scriptures we draw a conclusion that this is ac or that is ac. By definition this is what is Antichrist according to the scriptures:
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
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