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Post by rt on Jul 12, 2020 18:37:58 GMT -6
So I had always considered the 1/3 of the stars of the following passage to be the initial fall of Satan and his angels. I think that's where many commentaries come to the conclusion that Satan caused 1/3 of the angels to fall with him and it was always what I was taught as well. But after careful consideration I have come to a different conclusion, tell me what you think...
This passage shows the tail of the dragon sweeping away a third of the stars and throwing them to earth, which stands in contrast to the passage in verse 9, where the dragon and his angels are thrown down to earth with his angels by Michael and his angels. It also implies that the 1/3 of stars being cast down by the tail of the dragon happens before the dragon stands before the woman to devour her child.
There are some similarities to the following passage from Daniel, and most commentaries believe that the verses in Daniel 8 were fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes who serves as a type of the Antichrist to come.
Many scholars say that the stars and host here are speaking of the Israelites themselves,
So are the 1/3 of the stars in Rev 12:4 also Israelites? In light of the twelve stars of the woman’s crown in verse Rev. 12:1, this is possible, with the understanding that the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
The casting down of these stars by the dragon fits with the timing of events laid out in the scripture:
Under Antiochus (the tail of the dragon?) as Daniel shows, the Israelites were cast down. He forced them to follow Hellenistic ways, and if they refused they were killed. This happened roughly 170 years before the birth of Christ.
Then the dragon stands before the woman about to give birth to devour her male child upon his delivery.
This initially was Satan’s attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth, when Herod slew the male children (Matthew 2:13-23) , then at His crucifixion, when the dragon thought he had gained victory in cutting off the life of the messiah, but he could not prevent His resurrection and His birth into the heavenly Kingdom. You see that it is the redemption of the child that Satan is trying to prevent. He could not stop the “Head” of the Child from being born into the heavenly kingdom, and He will not devour the “body” of the child, the body of Christ, also known as the Church from being born into the heavenly kingdom either. Just as Jesus was caught up, so will those who are part of the body of Christ be.
Just as in a natural birth, the baby is born typically head first, in this case Jesus, the head was born or "caught up" into the heavenly tabernacle when He was resurrected, then after the head is "born" the body of the child follows, which would correlate to the church. The time frame between the catching up of Jesus, the head and the catching up of His body, the church is the period we call the "Church Age" of the "Age of Grace".
Following the rapture or catching up of the child we see the woman fleeing
Though the passage seems to put the flight of the woman immediately after the catching up of the child when moving on to the rest of the chapter we are given more clarity, that the woman flees “after” the dragon is cast down to earth (Revelation 12:13-17).
So the timeline of Revelation 12 is as follows:
1. The tail of the dragon sweeps away 1/3 of the hosts (Israel under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes).
2. Satan stands before the woman (Israel) to devour her male child. Jesus the head plus the body of Christ.
3. Jesus is caught up to His throne (His resurrection), followed by the body of Christ who is also caught up (the rapture).
4. War breaks out in heaven between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels.
5. The dragon and his angels lose and are cast down to earth.(Midpoint of 70th week)
6. The dragon persecutes the woman.
7. The woman flees to a place of safety prepared for her by God.
8. The dragon becomes enraged and makes war with the rest of the woman’s children.(The great tribulation)
Though parts of this passage had a past fulfillment under Antiochus, according to Jesus, who lived after that happened, it will have a future one as well, when authority is given to the mouth of the beast or the “little horn” as Daniel calls him, when the Antichrist is indwelled by the beast from the pit and commits the abomination of desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Matthew 24:15), he will then turn against the “host” or “saints” and trample them down.
So I would suggest that the 1/3 of the stars here are the Israelites who were "trampled" under Antiochus . Daniel 8 gives us Daniel's vision of the goat with the large horn, followed by four horns. We are told that this goat represents the kingdom of Greece in Daniel 8: 21. In the next chapter (Roughly 12 years later from what I can gather) Daniel receives the 70 weeks prophecy. Which pertains to this passage in Revelation.
I also think that this pattern will be repeated, during the great tribulation, I believe that the Antichrist will trample the "host" as he is given authority over the saints for 42 months. I believe these are those who will come to faith in Christ during the tribulation and will be killed for refusing the Mark of the beast. I believe that the 1/3 of mankind who are killed by the armies of the sixth trumpet are in fact the tribulation martyrs. (Revelation 9:15) The passage in Rev. 9 seems to indicate that those who are killed repent, because those who are not killed we are told , do not repent. These would make up the "rest of her children" in Revelation 12:17.
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Post by yardstick on Jul 12, 2020 22:25:43 GMT -6
... I also think that this pattern will be repeated, during the great tribulation, I believe that the Antichrist will trample the "host" as he is given authority over the saints for 42 months. I believe these are those who will come to faith in Christ during the tribulation and will be killed for refusing the Mark of the beast. I believe that the 1/3 of mankind who are killed by the armies of the sixth trumpet are in fact the tribulation martyrs. (Revelation 9:15) The passage in Rev. 9 seems to indicate that those who are killed repent, because those who are not killed we are told , do not repent. These would make up the "rest of her children" in Revelation 12:17. , Can you explain how the (presumably) trib saints who are shown already martyred at the 5th seal, are also the same as you have described from the 6th trumpet? Are you making the assumption that the seals and trumpets and bowls are occurring concurrently? |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 12, 2020 22:32:10 GMT -6
... There are some similarities to the following passage from Daniel, and most commentaries believe that the verses in Daniel 8 were fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes who serves as a type of the Antichrist to come. Many scholars say that the stars and host here are speaking of the Israelites themselves, So are the 1/3 of the stars in Rev 12:4 also Israelites? In light of the twelve stars of the woman’s crown in verse Rev. 12:1, this is possible, with the understanding that the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The casting down of these stars by the dragon fits with the timing of events laid out in the scripture: Under Antiochus (the tail of the dragon?) as Daniel shows, the Israelites were cast down. He forced them to follow Hellenistic ways, and if they refused they were killed. This happened roughly 170 years before the birth of Christ. Then the dragon stands before the woman about to give birth to devour her male child upon his delivery.
This initially was Satan’s attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth, when Herod slew the male children (Matthew 2:13-23) , then at His crucifixion, when the dragon thought he had gained victory in cutting off the life of the messiah, but he could not prevent His resurrection and His birth into the heavenly Kingdom. You see that it is the redemption of the child that Satan is trying to prevent. He could not stop the “Head” of the Child from being born into the heavenly kingdom, and He will not devour the “body” of the child, the body of Christ, also known as the Church from being born into the heavenly kingdom either. Just as Jesus was caught up, so will those who are part of the body of Christ be.
Just as in a natural birth, the baby is born typically head first, in this case Jesus, the head was born or "caught up" into the heavenly tabernacle when He was resurrected, then after the head is "born" the body of the child follows, which would correlate to the church. The time frame between the catching up of Jesus, the head and the catching up of His body, the church is the period we call the "Church Age" of the "Age of Grace". Following the rapture or catching up of the child we see the woman fleeing Though the passage seems to put the flight of the woman immediately after the catching up of the child when moving on to the rest of the chapter we are given more clarity, that the woman flees “after” the dragon is cast down to earth (Revelation 12:13-17). So the timeline of Revelation 12 is as follows: 1. The tail of the dragon sweeps away 1/3 of the hosts (Israel under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes). 2. Satan stands before the woman (Israel) to devour her male child. Jesus the head plus the body of Christ. 3. Jesus is caught up to His throne (His resurrection), followed by the body of Christ who is also caught up (the rapture). 4. War breaks out in heaven between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels. 5. The dragon and his angels lose and are cast down to earth.(Midpoint of 70th week) 6. The dragon persecutes the woman. 7. The woman flees to a place of safety prepared for her by God. 8. The dragon becomes enraged and makes war with the rest of the woman’s children.(The great tribulation) Though parts of this passage had a past fulfillment under Antiochus, according to Jesus, who lived after that happened, it will have a future one as well, when authority is given to the mouth of the beast or the “little horn” as Daniel calls him, when the Antichrist is indwelled by the beast from the pit and commits the abomination of desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Matthew 24:15), he will then turn against the “host” or “saints” and trample them down. So I would suggest that the 1/3 of the stars here are the Israelites who were "trampled" under Antiochus . Daniel 8 gives us Daniel's vision of the goat with the large horn, followed by four horns. We are told that this goat represents the kingdom of Greece in Daniel 8: 21. In the next chapter (Roughly 12 years later from what I can gather) Daniel receives the 70 weeks prophecy. Which pertains to this passage in Revelation. ... Also, how do you reconcile Rev 1:19? Common theological opinion is that chapters 1:1-1:19 are historic, 2-4 are present, and 5-end are future. If this is true, how does Antiochus et al, from above fit as a prophecy of the future, when Revelation 12 was written after? Lastly, note Daniel 8:10 as quoted above: Are you making the distinction that the host are angels, and the stars are Israel? Or the other way around? There are many places in scripture where angels are equated to or represented by stars (including Rev 1:20) |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 12, 2020 22:39:49 GMT -6
... There are some similarities to the following passage from Daniel, and most commentaries believe that the verses in Daniel 8 were fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes who serves as a type of the Antichrist to come. Many scholars say that the stars and host here are speaking of the Israelites themselves, So are the 1/3 of the stars in Rev 12:4 also Israelites? In light of the twelve stars of the woman’s crown in verse Rev. 12:1, this is possible, with the understanding that the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The casting down of these stars by the dragon fits with the timing of events laid out in the scripture: Under Antiochus (the tail of the dragon?) as Daniel shows, the Israelites were cast down. He forced them to follow Hellenistic ways, and if they refused they were killed. This happened roughly 170 years before the birth of Christ. Then the dragon stands before the woman about to give birth to devour her male child upon his delivery.
This initially was Satan’s attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth, when Herod slew the male children (Matthew 2:13-23) , then at His crucifixion, when the dragon thought he had gained victory in cutting off the life of the messiah, but he could not prevent His resurrection and His birth into the heavenly Kingdom. You see that it is the redemption of the child that Satan is trying to prevent. He could not stop the “Head” of the Child from being born into the heavenly kingdom, and He will not devour the “body” of the child, the body of Christ, also known as the Church from being born into the heavenly kingdom either. Just as Jesus was caught up, so will those who are part of the body of Christ be.
Just as in a natural birth, the baby is born typically head first, in this case Jesus, the head was born or "caught up" into the heavenly tabernacle when He was resurrected, then after the head is "born" the body of the child follows, which would correlate to the church. The time frame between the catching up of Jesus, the head and the catching up of His body, the church is the period we call the "Church Age" of the "Age of Grace". Following the rapture or catching up of the child we see the woman fleeing Though the passage seems to put the flight of the woman immediately after the catching up of the child when moving on to the rest of the chapter we are given more clarity, that the woman flees “after” the dragon is cast down to earth (Revelation 12:13-17). So the timeline of Revelation 12 is as follows: 1. The tail of the dragon sweeps away 1/3 of the hosts (Israel under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes). 2. Satan stands before the woman (Israel) to devour her male child. Jesus the head plus the body of Christ. 3. Jesus is caught up to His throne (His resurrection), followed by the body of Christ who is also caught up (the rapture). 4. War breaks out in heaven between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels. 5. The dragon and his angels lose and are cast down to earth.(Midpoint of 70th week) 6. The dragon persecutes the woman. 7. The woman flees to a place of safety prepared for her by God. 8. The dragon becomes enraged and makes war with the rest of the woman’s children.(The great tribulation) Though parts of this passage had a past fulfillment under Antiochus, according to Jesus, who lived after that happened, it will have a future one as well, when authority is given to the mouth of the beast or the “little horn” as Daniel calls him, when the Antichrist is indwelled by the beast from the pit and commits the abomination of desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Matthew 24:15), he will then turn against the “host” or “saints” and trample them down. So I would suggest that the 1/3 of the stars here are the Israelites who were "trampled" under Antiochus . Daniel 8 gives us Daniel's vision of the goat with the large horn, followed by four horns. We are told that this goat represents the kingdom of Greece in Daniel 8: 21. In the next chapter (Roughly 12 years later from what I can gather) Daniel receives the 70 weeks prophecy. Which pertains to this passage in Revelation. ... Also, how do you reconcile Rev 1:19? Common theological opinion is that chapters 1:1-1:19 are historic, 1:20-4 are present, and 5-end are future. If this is true, how does Antiochus et al, from above fit as a prophecy of the future, when Revelation 12 was written after? Lastly, note Daniel 8:10 as quoted above: Are you making the distinction that the host are angels, and the stars are Israel? Or the other way around? There are many places in scripture where angels are equated to or represented by stars (including Rev 1:20) p.s.: FWIW, I am currently of the opinion that Rev 12 in its entirety is the first half of the tribulation; and that it is the only place that such time is clearly identified (let alone detailed), outside of Daniel. |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 12, 2020 22:47:46 GMT -6
I'll have to check (unless someone has a notion whether we have already discussed this or not) - but is there any scriptural indication - regarding the seals - of why they have to start at the beginning of the 7 years, and not somewhere in the middle?
I am sure there must be something somewhere; but nothing is coming to mind.
What I am getting at is... if Rev 12 is the details of the first half of the trib, then we are in it right now. Except that we have not really seen any obvious indication that the seals are being broken. I believe we have the assumption (unless someone can correct me) that the seals start at the beginning, instead of after? What if the seals dont happen til after the harpazo, but the tribulation starts before it?
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Post by boraddict on Jul 12, 2020 22:58:10 GMT -6
Hi rt, I like your observation of Rev. 9:15. I have always had the understanding that a tail is an illegal government and the link in this 2nd woe of Chapter 9 applies to the false godhead of Rev. 16:12-14. This wicked godhead gathers everyone to the great battle and it seems reasonable that they would engage in killing saints as you have suggested. I am going to look at this further; great find, thanks. |
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Post by mike on Jul 13, 2020 8:24:58 GMT -6
yardstickCommon theology needs to be fully vetted and alternates should be considered. I do no believe the entirety of Revelation is linear. It is extremely clear that Daniel is not arranged linear either, nor are several other prophetic writings (Eze - forget which chapters ATM). Reading Daniel 11 this morning I think (nothing firm here but for consideration) verses 1 to 35 apply to Antiochus and have historical context but after that the scene shifts to the future. As I am sure you aware many believe we saw a representation of Rev 12:1-2 on Sept 23, 2017 which could very mean what you said here: SO if Rev isnt a straight timeline, then we should the consider possibility that certain things in Rev can happen in differing orders than what "common theology" expounds
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Post by venge on Jul 13, 2020 8:29:06 GMT -6
So I had always considered the 1/3 of the stars of the following passage to be the initial fall of Satan and his angels. I think that's where many commentaries come to the conclusion that Satan caused 1/3 of the angels to fall with him and it was always what I was taught as well. But after careful consideration I have come to a different conclusion, tell me what you think... This passage shows the tail of the dragon sweeping away a third of the stars and throwing them to earth, which stands in contrast to the passage in verse 9, where the dragon and his angels are thrown down to earth with his angels by Michael and his angels. It also implies that the 1/3 of stars being cast down by the tail of the dragon happens before the dragon stands before the woman to devour her child. There are some similarities to the following passage from Daniel, and most commentaries believe that the verses in Daniel 8 were fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes who serves as a type of the Antichrist to come. Many scholars say that the stars and host here are speaking of the Israelites themselves, So are the 1/3 of the stars in Rev 12:4 also Israelites? In light of the twelve stars of the woman’s crown in verse Rev. 12:1, this is possible, with the understanding that the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The casting down of these stars by the dragon fits with the timing of events laid out in the scripture: Under Antiochus (the tail of the dragon?) as Daniel shows, the Israelites were cast down. He forced them to follow Hellenistic ways, and if they refused they were killed. This happened roughly 170 years before the birth of Christ. Then the dragon stands before the woman about to give birth to devour her male child upon his delivery.
This initially was Satan’s attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth, when Herod slew the male children (Matthew 2:13-23) , then at His crucifixion, when the dragon thought he had gained victory in cutting off the life of the messiah, but he could not prevent His resurrection and His birth into the heavenly Kingdom. You see that it is the redemption of the child that Satan is trying to prevent. He could not stop the “Head” of the Child from being born into the heavenly kingdom, and He will not devour the “body” of the child, the body of Christ, also known as the Church from being born into the heavenly kingdom either. Just as Jesus was caught up, so will those who are part of the body of Christ be.
Just as in a natural birth, the baby is born typically head first, in this case Jesus, the head was born or "caught up" into the heavenly tabernacle when He was resurrected, then after the head is "born" the body of the child follows, which would correlate to the church. The time frame between the catching up of Jesus, the head and the catching up of His body, the church is the period we call the "Church Age" of the "Age of Grace". Following the rapture or catching up of the child we see the woman fleeing Though the passage seems to put the flight of the woman immediately after the catching up of the child when moving on to the rest of the chapter we are given more clarity, that the woman flees “after” the dragon is cast down to earth (Revelation 12:13-17). So the timeline of Revelation 12 is as follows: 1. The tail of the dragon sweeps away 1/3 of the hosts (Israel under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes). 2. Satan stands before the woman (Israel) to devour her male child. Jesus the head plus the body of Christ. 3. Jesus is caught up to His throne (His resurrection), followed by the body of Christ who is also caught up (the rapture). 4. War breaks out in heaven between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels. 5. The dragon and his angels lose and are cast down to earth.(Midpoint of 70th week) 6. The dragon persecutes the woman. 7. The woman flees to a place of safety prepared for her by God. 8. The dragon becomes enraged and makes war with the rest of the woman’s children.(The great tribulation) Though parts of this passage had a past fulfillment under Antiochus, according to Jesus, who lived after that happened, it will have a future one as well, when authority is given to the mouth of the beast or the “little horn” as Daniel calls him, when the Antichrist is indwelled by the beast from the pit and commits the abomination of desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Matthew 24:15), he will then turn against the “host” or “saints” and trample them down. So I would suggest that the 1/3 of the stars here are the Israelites who were "trampled" under Antiochus . Daniel 8 gives us Daniel's vision of the goat with the large horn, followed by four horns. We are told that this goat represents the kingdom of Greece in Daniel 8: 21. In the next chapter (Roughly 12 years later from what I can gather) Daniel receives the 70 weeks prophecy. Which pertains to this passage in Revelation. I also think that this pattern will be repeated, during the great tribulation, I believe that the Antichrist will trample the "host" as he is given authority over the saints for 42 months. I believe these are those who will come to faith in Christ during the tribulation and will be killed for refusing the Mark of the beast. I believe that the 1/3 of mankind who are killed by the armies of the sixth trumpet are in fact the tribulation martyrs. (Revelation 9:15) The passage in Rev. 9 seems to indicate that those who are killed repent, because those who are not killed we are told , do not repent. These would make up the "rest of her children" in Revelation 12:17. RT, What joy fills my heart when you discover things such as this. Many things we were taught, you notice are not always so. Are the third of the stars of heaven swept to the earth fallen angels, meteors/comets or are they men in high regards, kings and princes, leaders of their communities...cast down as if they were seated on high - but now they are humbled or slain. I am equally glad you made the connection in Daniel, but there are other spots that also answer the question. Those that are like the stars of heaven are demonstrated to be man many times in the OT. Take a look into Ezekiel for one.. |
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Post by venge on Jul 13, 2020 8:36:11 GMT -6
Hi rt , I like your observation of Rev. 9:15. I have always had the understanding that a tail is an illegal government and the link in this 2nd woe of Chapter 9 applies to the false godhead of Rev. 16:12-14. This wicked godhead gathers everyone to the great battle and it seems reasonable that they would engage in killing saints as you have suggested. I am going to look at this further; great find, thanks. Bora, The tail that sweeps 1/3rd is falsehood taught to the people under the guise of light. The falsehood was believed by 1/3rd of the people and caused them to fall as sin does to a man. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 13, 2020 15:07:18 GMT -6
rt, I like that observation of the third of the stars having to do with the crown of 12 stars since vs 3 n 4 follow w what was said in 12:1,2. I agree with Mike on his comment re: common theology. And amen with venge over all. Which brings me to the Daniel references. I dont want to derail the topic but all day I was trying to meditate on head, horns tails.. funny venge that you posted those scriptures in reply to bora. In Dan 7 we have a 4th horrible beast of 10 HORNS. Then this little horn undermines the first 3 horns. This little horn is slain. In rev 13 it is not a horn that is healed but head. I am on my phone and walking and will find my notes later.
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Post by rt on Jul 13, 2020 15:22:50 GMT -6
Lot's of questions, I will try to get to all, but each in order, yardstick first ... I also think that this pattern will be repeated, during the great tribulation, I believe that the Antichrist will trample the "host" as he is given authority over the saints for 42 months. I believe these are those who will come to faith in Christ during the tribulation and will be killed for refusing the Mark of the beast. I believe that the 1/3 of mankind who are killed by the armies of the sixth trumpet are in fact the tribulation martyrs. (Revelation 9:15) The passage in Rev. 9 seems to indicate that those who are killed repent, because those who are not killed we are told , do not repent. These would make up the "rest of her children" in Revelation 12:17. , Can you explain how the (presumably) trib saints who are shown already martyred at the 5th seal, are also the same as you have described from the 6th trumpet? Are you making the assumption that the seals and trumpets and bowls are occurring concurrently? The simple answer is that I do not see the 5th seal martyrs as the tribulation martyrs, for a more in depth look at why I believe this please see this thread board.unsealed.org/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture Page 3, May 3, 2017 9:08 am time marker, starts the discussion of the 5th seal, however I would suggest reading from page 1 so that you gain more insight into how I get there. To summerize I see the seals being opened before the 70th week begins, the 5th seal shows the dead in Christ receiving their robes, this is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which includes those martyred for their faith throughout the church age. But please read at the link to get a more thourough picture of why I think this is so. |
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Post by rt on Jul 13, 2020 16:11:05 GMT -6
Also, how do you reconcile Rev 1:19? Common theological opinion is that chapters 1:1-1:19 are historic, 2-4 are present, and 5-end are future. If this is true, how does Antiochus et al, from above fit as a prophecy of the future, when Revelation 12 was written after? Lastly, note Daniel 8:10 as quoted above: Are you making the distinction that the host are angels, and the stars are Israel? Or the other way around? There are many places in scripture where angels are equated to or represented by stars (including Rev 1:20) Okay yardstick, so as far as Rev 1:19 goes, I do not believe that what John is being told to write pertains necessarily to future events, though it includes those, but rather it pertains to the revelation itself. John is instructed to write down everything he sees and send it to the seven churches: • Verse 19- the things that you have seen, which are and what will take place- all pertain to the revelation itself, what John had seen to that point; verses 1-17. • What he was seeing; verses 18-20. • And what he would see after that point, which would comprise all the rest of the revelation. Not all that John would write down concerned future events as I believe some commentators wrongly assume, it merely pertains to what John would be shown concerning Christ’s return to earth, some things described may have occurred in the past but are relevant to His second coming in the future and are included in the revelation. Therefore when John is told to write what would “take place after these things”, he was being told to write down what would follow concerning the revelation itself, what he “sees”. I have explained this before somewhere here on this site, but for the sake of understanding and because I can't begin to know where I put it, I will repeat it here let's say the revelation is a movie. John is told to write down everything he sees that happens in the movie. He is first shown the beginning of the movie then told to write it down what he had seen, then he is shown more of the movie and while he is watching he is reminded again to write it down what he was seeing, then he is told to write down what he sees after those things, when he is taken to a different location to watch the rest of the movie. SOme of the events in the movie are present to John's time (the letters to the churches) some of the things occured in John's past (the Lamb entering as if slain AKA the resurrection of Christ) and most of what John would see are future events. This being said, I do not think that Antiochus fits into future events, only in that he serves as a type and pattern for the Antichrist. I believe that John was given a timeline which included events from his past (Daniel/ Antiochus) in order to give context to the vision he was being shown in Revelation 12. He is shown this because in the future, events will be very similar. Jesus Himself points to the prophecies of Daniel in regard to the future Abomination of Desolation. Which is a pivitol point in the 70 weeks prophecy, a prophecy which speaks of the restoration of the nation of Israel. This event is what will begin the great tribulation and the persecution of the woman and the rest of her children. This is why Israel flees to the wilderness, and what begins the restoration process. I undertsnad what the common theological opinion is, trust me I have studied many views over the last 15 or so years. I just happen to disagree with them. You can decide for yourself, I will completely understand if you disagree, you are more than free to do so and I won't think less of you if you do. Okay lastly Daniel 8:10 What I am saying is that the hosts and stars are both Israel. So we are given an interpretation in scripture. We don't have to guess : The word "hosts" in Hebrew refers to armies or soldiers, while "stars" can mean "youths" or "progeny". This is shown in the interpretation Daniel is given, "mighty men" could be soldiers and the "holy people" is clearly a referece to the faithful among the nation of Israel. Angels are sometimes referred to as stars, then sometimes scripture means stars, as in the star of the night sky. All three of these types of "stars"are used in the revelation so it is understandable that some would come to the conclusion that the stars here are angelic entities. |
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Post by rt on Jul 13, 2020 18:46:17 GMT -6
venge wrote: I had a feeling you would be pleased  . Also didn't God's promise to Abraham say that he would multiply his seed like the stars?
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Post by yardstick on Jul 13, 2020 18:58:14 GMT -6
yardstick Common theology needs to be fully vetted and alternates should be considered. I do no believe the entirety of Revelation is linear. It is extremely clear that Daniel is not arranged linear either, nor are several other prophetic writings (Eze - forget which chapters ATM). Reading Daniel 11 this morning I think (nothing firm here but for consideration) verses 1 to 35 apply to Antiochus and have historical context but after that the scene shifts to the future. As I am sure you aware many believe we saw a representation of Rev 12:1-2 on Sept 23, 2017 which could very mean what you said here: SO if Rev isnt a straight timeline, then we should the consider possibility that certain things in Rev can happen in differing orders than what "common theology" expounds Regarding Rev 1:19, did you see the part where John says Jesus Christ himself says: "...what you have seen..." - Rev 1:1-18 "...what is now..." - Rev 1:19- ch 4 "...what will take place later..." Rev ch 5-end If these are not the logical break points for the subsequent passages, is there any evidence that the order of the publishing/copying has been swapped around? If not, what other break points would satisfy the three clauses above? Yes. I still hold the opinion that strictly speaking, not every chapter and verse in rev is sequential. Else how to explain Rev 12,13,14 sitting right in between the 7th trumpet and the first of the 7 bowls? Do we want to make the claim that all of the events occurring in those chapters are sequentially occurring between the events of Rev 11 and Rev 15? Does it not make more sense that Rev 12 is a vignette prophecy, as are the contents of Rev 13 (containing 2 visions) and Rev 14 (3 visions)? These visions appear to be greatly detailed in their content, as if bits and pieces of other prophecy (Like Daniel 9:27 in the case of Rev 12) were fleshed out in greater detail. |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 13, 2020 19:04:39 GMT -6
yardstick Common theology needs to be fully vetted and alternates should be considered. I do no believe the entirety of Revelation is linear. It is extremely clear that Daniel is not arranged linear either, nor are several other prophetic writings (Eze - forget which chapters ATM). Reading Daniel 11 this morning I think (nothing firm here but for consideration) verses 1 to 35 apply to Antiochus and have historical context but after that the scene shifts to the future. ... I agree with this. I believe, as in Ez 28, the prophecy is speaking to the spirit behind the man. Thus a temporal jump can occur between the events in even a single clause, when the context suddenly changes. Because the alternative (and I can buy this as a possibility too) is that the events described in Daniel that appear to related to Antiochus, it can most certainly apply to the AC. Why? Because if the spirit indwelling Antiochus failed the first time, you can bet he will likely try again, using the exact same method. We humans have short memories, in the history sense. |
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. Also didn't God's promise to Abraham say that he would multiply his seed like the stars?