Post by disciple4life on Jun 28, 2020 12:01:08 GMT -6
Ok, my fellow watchmen.
Most of the seasoned "sheepdogs" are well aware of the "80 Years = generation" verse, and the accompanying belief that this means 80 years is the upper limit- maximum time from Israel becoming a nation until the rapture /start of the tribulation.
**For the sake of newer watchmen, or those not so advanced in end-times events and all the nuances of Bible prophecy and the 50 shades of difference in the various rapture theories -
I want to make a few points to re-cap - summarize the best I can, before we dive into refuting- revisiting this "80 year" notion.
1. The Olivette discourse is one of the most famous passages of Christ where he talks about the events and signs of the "Second Advent"
2. Second Advent being the rapture, - whenever you think that might be in relation to the 70Th week of Daniel, the events of the tribulation itself, described in Revelation such as Anti-Christ, mark of the beast, and seals being opened, and when all Hell breaks loose - this period being well-known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble"
Jacob being the other name for Israel.
3. In this famous passage, Jesus uses the symbol of the fig tree, when it buds and blossoms and bears fruit. ***No other nation or people group is ever linked to the fig tree in scripture. Israel and Israel only is explicitly linked to the fig tree - and it is for this reason that people see the birth of Israel in 1948 as a major and huge piece of the "end times puzzle."
4. Christ says that this generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. What things - the events of the tribulation and the sun turning black and the blood moon, and the events of the Great tribulation. So this is where we get the idea of the birth of Israel being a major marker - or key event on the timeline.
5. In the Bible a Generation is used to mean 40 years, 100 years and 70 years. Interestingly, 70 is the average number between 40 and 100. 40 was used as the length of the generation that wandered in the wilderness **also the number of testing. 100 years was also used in Gen 15, when God told Abraham that he would deliver Israel in the 4th generation, and Abraham was exactly 100 years when Isaac was born. Significantly, king David died at age 70, and reigned 40 years. The most well-known passage in scripture that is used as the definition of a generation is from
Psalms 90:10.
"The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength, eighty.: yet their span is but toil and trouble." So this is the background and the sources for the "Notion of 80 years" - and it is widely believed across denominational lines that the birth of Israel was the key event that started the clock. The generation that was born in 1948.
OK - so what's the issue?? or what is the debate really all about. ??
Surprisingly, there are about 5 major debates in the theological community among watchers all around this verse . That's another thread. LOL.
This thread only deals with one. The debate is whether 80 years is the upper limit. For a minute - let's all pretend that every Christian in the world believes that the Fig tree IS Isreal, and that the Birth of Israel in 1948 WAS indeed, a major timeframe marker, and thus a reference point for the rapture.
Let's also all pretend (just for the sake of this thread) that All Christians agree that a generation IS indeed 70, and 80, by reason of strength, good genes- [So for this thread, we are pretending that 70 - 80 years is what the Bible means for generation, and it doesn't mean 40 years or 100.]
What we're down to now, is that assuming all these things were explicitly stated, by 3 different writers of scripture including Jesus himself - it doesn't say that 80 is the upper limit.
What does scripture actually say ?? It says that this generation will not pass away.
All the people in born in this year, all over the world, with very different diets and lifespan ranges - from people who eat mostly Doritos and microwave dinners, to Japanese who live well into their upper 80's and the phenomen/ outlier who eats lard, and deep fried twinkies and drinks heavily and doesn't wear a seat belt who lives to be 97.
All these people - across the planet collectively make up "this generation" - the common thing they share is that they were born in 1948. **My mother is in this distinguished group. ;-)
***Also, another huge problem with this narrow assumption is that it doesn't count all those born in that decade - which is the standard used around the world to determine who are the baby boomers, baby busters, hippies, generation x and millennials.
What about the Japanese guy who was the poster child of health, - exercises regularly, eats kelp and tons of kale and garlic, and only 100% organic food, and died at age 58, and the outlier, the guy who has no concept of health nutrition, does extreme sports bungee jumping and catches rattlesnakes and lives off processed food, and lives to be 103. ??
They have virtually nothing in common - different race, diet, language, culture, religion, climate, habits, lifestyle etc, except for one thing - they are in the same 'fig tree' generation.
The common view is that we use 1948 as the starting marker- and then 1948 + 80 years = 2028 - for all these things to come to pass - including the events of the tribulation- 3rd temple and the Anti-Christ etc. and so we subtract 7 from 2028 and that gives us 2021, for the start of the 7 year tribulation.
The problem is that these people are practicing "Eisegesis" - reading into the text something that is not there.
Nowhere in scripture does it say or even remotely imply that 80 years is the maximum, upper limit for the rapture to happen, counting from Israel becoming a nation - [Even if we all agreed on the other issues related]
"Snake-catcher Sam" andHagas [Haggis] eating Donald McDougal are all representatives of this generation.
2028 could come and go - and there could still be 14,378 representatives, alive and still eatinghagas [haggis], and whale blubber. 80 years is longer than the average - 70 but we all know people like "Snake catcher Sam", who defied all the odds and science and are still driving in their mid 80's. I lived in Florida for 10 years - believe me - they are everywhere. 
As long as Donald McDougal and Snake catcher Sam and Lard-loving Lucy - from this generation are still alive - the prophecy still stands. It has nothing to do with 2028.
I am strongly of the view that the Fig Tree is Israel, and that the Olivette Discourse unquestionably is referring to Isreal, and that the Birth of Israel is one of the major foundational markers in End times chronology.
I am strongly of the view - of the Pre-Tribulational rapture and that all the clues given by John, Paul and Christ all point to one thing and one thing only- the rapture at the "last Trumpet" - at the Day that No One Knows the day or Hour" Aka the Day of Shouting, and the Wedding of the Messiah, and the day that Jews around the world believe the resurrection happens - on Rosh Hoshanah - Feast of Trumpets.
I am also of the view that for us - Children of the Day, Christians, Paul explicitly said that we will not be surprised like a thief in the night - an instantly-recognized and well-documented Hebrew idiom for the Captain of the Temple Guard. NO Surprise, imminent, any day rapture.
I am strongly of the belief that we are seeing a growing number of converging signs - lawlessness, falling away, wars, famines, pestilences, pandemics, false prophets, weird weather, earthquakes in diverse places, and the dividing of God's land, and that these converging signs are "birth pains" which as JD Farag and other end times teachers have noted - only increase in frequency and intensity.
As much as i believe we will see the rapture this year - I also believe that we have to follow basic principles of Biblical interpretation, and for this reason, the notion of imminent rapture and 80 years as being the maximum, upper limit doesn't pass this test for interpreting scripture.
Maranatha,
Disciple4life
Most of the seasoned "sheepdogs" are well aware of the "80 Years = generation" verse, and the accompanying belief that this means 80 years is the upper limit- maximum time from Israel becoming a nation until the rapture /start of the tribulation.
**For the sake of newer watchmen, or those not so advanced in end-times events and all the nuances of Bible prophecy and the 50 shades of difference in the various rapture theories -
I want to make a few points to re-cap - summarize the best I can, before we dive into refuting- revisiting this "80 year" notion.
1. The Olivette discourse is one of the most famous passages of Christ where he talks about the events and signs of the "Second Advent"
2. Second Advent being the rapture, - whenever you think that might be in relation to the 70Th week of Daniel, the events of the tribulation itself, described in Revelation such as Anti-Christ, mark of the beast, and seals being opened, and when all Hell breaks loose - this period being well-known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble"
Jacob being the other name for Israel. 3. In this famous passage, Jesus uses the symbol of the fig tree, when it buds and blossoms and bears fruit. ***No other nation or people group is ever linked to the fig tree in scripture. Israel and Israel only is explicitly linked to the fig tree - and it is for this reason that people see the birth of Israel in 1948 as a major and huge piece of the "end times puzzle."
4. Christ says that this generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. What things - the events of the tribulation and the sun turning black and the blood moon, and the events of the Great tribulation. So this is where we get the idea of the birth of Israel being a major marker - or key event on the timeline.
5. In the Bible a Generation is used to mean 40 years, 100 years and 70 years. Interestingly, 70 is the average number between 40 and 100. 40 was used as the length of the generation that wandered in the wilderness **also the number of testing. 100 years was also used in Gen 15, when God told Abraham that he would deliver Israel in the 4th generation, and Abraham was exactly 100 years when Isaac was born. Significantly, king David died at age 70, and reigned 40 years. The most well-known passage in scripture that is used as the definition of a generation is from
Psalms 90:10.
"The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength, eighty.: yet their span is but toil and trouble." So this is the background and the sources for the "Notion of 80 years" - and it is widely believed across denominational lines that the birth of Israel was the key event that started the clock. The generation that was born in 1948.
OK - so what's the issue?? or what is the debate really all about. ??
Surprisingly, there are about 5 major debates in the theological community among watchers all around this verse . That's another thread. LOL.
This thread only deals with one. The debate is whether 80 years is the upper limit. For a minute - let's all pretend that every Christian in the world believes that the Fig tree IS Isreal, and that the Birth of Israel in 1948 WAS indeed, a major timeframe marker, and thus a reference point for the rapture.
Let's also all pretend (just for the sake of this thread) that All Christians agree that a generation IS indeed 70, and 80, by reason of strength, good genes- [So for this thread, we are pretending that 70 - 80 years is what the Bible means for generation, and it doesn't mean 40 years or 100.]
What we're down to now, is that assuming all these things were explicitly stated, by 3 different writers of scripture including Jesus himself - it doesn't say that 80 is the upper limit.
What does scripture actually say ?? It says that this generation will not pass away.
All the people in born in this year, all over the world, with very different diets and lifespan ranges - from people who eat mostly Doritos and microwave dinners, to Japanese who live well into their upper 80's and the phenomen/ outlier who eats lard, and deep fried twinkies and drinks heavily and doesn't wear a seat belt who lives to be 97.
All these people - across the planet collectively make up "this generation" - the common thing they share is that they were born in 1948. **My mother is in this distinguished group. ;-)
***Also, another huge problem with this narrow assumption is that it doesn't count all those born in that decade - which is the standard used around the world to determine who are the baby boomers, baby busters, hippies, generation x and millennials.
What about the Japanese guy who was the poster child of health, - exercises regularly, eats kelp and tons of kale and garlic, and only 100% organic food, and died at age 58, and the outlier, the guy who has no concept of health nutrition, does extreme sports bungee jumping and catches rattlesnakes and lives off processed food, and lives to be 103. ??
They have virtually nothing in common - different race, diet, language, culture, religion, climate, habits, lifestyle etc, except for one thing - they are in the same 'fig tree' generation.
The common view is that we use 1948 as the starting marker- and then 1948 + 80 years = 2028 - for all these things to come to pass - including the events of the tribulation- 3rd temple and the Anti-Christ etc. and so we subtract 7 from 2028 and that gives us 2021, for the start of the 7 year tribulation.
The problem is that these people are practicing "Eisegesis" - reading into the text something that is not there.
Nowhere in scripture does it say or even remotely imply that 80 years is the maximum, upper limit for the rapture to happen, counting from Israel becoming a nation - [Even if we all agreed on the other issues related]
"Snake-catcher Sam" and
2028 could come and go - and there could still be 14,378 representatives, alive and still eating
As long as Donald McDougal and Snake catcher Sam and Lard-loving Lucy - from this generation are still alive - the prophecy still stands. It has nothing to do with 2028.
I am strongly of the view that the Fig Tree is Israel, and that the Olivette Discourse unquestionably is referring to Isreal, and that the Birth of Israel is one of the major foundational markers in End times chronology.
I am strongly of the view - of the Pre-Tribulational rapture and that all the clues given by John, Paul and Christ all point to one thing and one thing only- the rapture at the "last Trumpet" - at the Day that No One Knows the day or Hour" Aka the Day of Shouting, and the Wedding of the Messiah, and the day that Jews around the world believe the resurrection happens - on Rosh Hoshanah - Feast of Trumpets.
I am also of the view that for us - Children of the Day, Christians, Paul explicitly said that we will not be surprised like a thief in the night - an instantly-recognized and well-documented Hebrew idiom for the Captain of the Temple Guard. NO Surprise, imminent, any day rapture.
I am strongly of the belief that we are seeing a growing number of converging signs - lawlessness, falling away, wars, famines, pestilences, pandemics, false prophets, weird weather, earthquakes in diverse places, and the dividing of God's land, and that these converging signs are "birth pains" which as JD Farag and other end times teachers have noted - only increase in frequency and intensity.
As much as i believe we will see the rapture this year - I also believe that we have to follow basic principles of Biblical interpretation, and for this reason, the notion of imminent rapture and 80 years as being the maximum, upper limit doesn't pass this test for interpreting scripture.
Maranatha,
Disciple4life
