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Post by Natalie on Aug 10, 2020 20:22:49 GMT -6
venge, usually "agree to disagree" means that the discussion is over. 
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 10, 2020 21:43:43 GMT -6
disciple4life , You said, You linked the 7th Trumpet being blown with a new year starting. Ever think about when Christ begins to reign at the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11, it ends the last day of the end of the age and begins the new year...of the millennial reign. Just wondering... Hello venge , You misunderstood. If you read the quote again, I specifically linked "The Last Trumpet" with Rosh Hoshanah, which is Feast of Trumpets - and it is the 100th blast. When the new moon is sighted by two witnesses, and they are questioned by the Sanhedrin, the moon is considered sanctified and there are alternating series of long sustained blasts, and short, staccato blasts -- 99. Then there is the 100th blast - thus the Last Trumpet. It is the loudest and longest and even has a special name in Hebrew - Tekia Ga Dolah, and is held as long as the trumpeter has breath. I have never linked the Last Trumpet with the 7th Trumpet in Revelation. I have actually posted in multiple threads that this is explicitly and unmistakably clear in the text, that the 7th Trumpet in Revelation is not God's trumpet. The passage says explicitly that this is blown by angels. Each of the 7 trumpets are blown by 7 separate angels. Furthermore, it's connected with judgement, not reward. Rosh Hoshanah, and the Last Trumpet, is a celebration, and this day is also known as the Wedding of the messiah.  On this two day feast, the door of heaven is opened, and Jews search their hearts and make ammends for wrongs done and the ten days inclusive between Rosh Hashanah and Day of Atonement are the 10 days of Awe. At Day of Atonement, the Door of heaven is closed. -- Judgement is made. The First Trumpet was at Mt Sinai, when the Law was given, was connected with the Feast of Pentecost.The Great Trumpet is at the year of Jubilee, every 50 years, and is connected with Day of Atonement, and the Last Trumpet, is one of many well-known and instantly-recognized Jewish idioms, and it's also confirmed by multiple rabbis - both Christian and regular rabbis and this is a direct reference to Rosh Hoshanah, aka Feast of Trumpets, and the Feast is also "Day of Shouting". One of the first and most basic principles of Bible interpretation is "Before we can ask 'What does this passage mean to us, today', we have to ask 'What did this passage mean to the original audience, then'?
The text in Revelation is clear, and the context is also clear, that the 7 Trumpets and & 7 angels or the 7th Trumpet is not God's Trumpet, nor is it the "Last Trumpet", referred to by Paul, and understood clearly by Christ's Jewish followers, and understood clearly by Jews everywhere today.
www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/the-feast-of-trumpets/
Disciple4life
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Post by venge on Aug 11, 2020 6:25:44 GMT -6
venge , usually "agree to disagree" means that the discussion is over. I don't think Paul, when discussing with various other religious groups, stopped and said agree to disagree when asked about scripture in God's word. We are to look and search for truth. Otherwise, you never learn from others..and you are always right in your own mind. Paul was constantly challenged by others. A comment was made and I replied to it with 3 verses. She disagrees with either the verses or that she is right regardless of the verses - I don't know which. Yet, no scripture is given to support the view. So if she is right, how do I learn? Does she have a scriptural reason that I or others could use or do we hide God's word in our hearts and not share them with others? |
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Post by venge on Aug 11, 2020 6:35:17 GMT -6
disciple4life , You said, You linked the 7th Trumpet being blown with a new year starting. Ever think about when Christ begins to reign at the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11, it ends the last day of the end of the age and begins the new year...of the millennial reign. Just wondering... Hello venge , You misunderstood. If you read the quote again, I specifically linked "The Last Trumpet" with Rosh Hoshanah, which is Feast of Trumpets - and it is the 100th blast. When the new moon is sighted by two witnesses, and they are questioned by the Sanhedrin, the moon is considered sanctified and there are alternating series of long sustained blasts, and short, staccato blasts -- 99. Then there is the 100th blast - thus the Last Trumpet. It is the loudest and longest and even has a special name in Hebrew - Tekia Ga Dolah, and is held as long as the trumpeter has breath. I have never linked the Last Trumpet with the 7th Trumpet in Revelation. I have actually posted in multiple threads that this is explicitly and unmistakably clear in the text, that the 7th Trumpet in Revelation is not God's trumpet. The passage says explicitly that this is blown by angels. Each of the 7 trumpets are blown by 7 separate angels. Furthermore, it's connected with judgement, not reward. Rosh Hoshanah, and the Last Trumpet, is a celebration, and this day is also known as the Wedding of the messiah. On this two day feast, the door of heaven is opened, and Jews search their hearts and make ammends for wrongs done and the ten days inclusive between Rosh Hashanah and Day of Atonement are the 10 days of Awe. At Day of Atonement, the Door of heaven is closed. -- Judgement is made. The First Trumpet was at Mt Sinai, when the Law was given, was connected with the Feast of Pentecost.The Great Trumpet is at the year of Jubilee, every 50 years, and is connected with Day of Atonement, and the Last Trumpet, is one of many well-known and instantly-recognized Jewish idioms, and it's also confirmed by multiple rabbis - both Christian and regular rabbis and this is a direct reference to Rosh Hoshanah, aka Feast of Trumpets, and the Feast is also "Day of Shouting". One of the first and most basic principles of Bible interpretation is "Before we can ask 'What does this passage mean to us, today', we have to ask 'What did this passage mean to the original audience, then'?
The text in Revelation is clear, and the context is also clear, that the 7 Trumpets and & 7 angels or the 7th Trumpet is not God's Trumpet, nor is it the "Last Trumpet", referred to by Paul, and understood clearly by Christ's Jewish followers, and understood clearly by Jews everywhere today.
www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/the-feast-of-trumpets/
Disciple4life , No misunderstanding my friend. Let me explain. You said: You linked the last Trumpet blowing with the New Year starting. I only said 7th Trumpet because when its is blown, and Christ reigns its a new year. The similarity is uncanny. |
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Post by Gary on Aug 11, 2020 7:50:22 GMT -6
venge , usually "agree to disagree" means that the discussion is over. I don't think Paul, when discussing with various other religious groups, stopped and said agree to disagree when asked about scripture in God's word. We are to look and search for truth. Otherwise, you never learn from others..and you are always right in your own mind. Paul was constantly challenged by others. A comment was made and I replied to it with 3 verses. She disagrees with either the verses or that she is right regardless of the verses - I don't know which. Yet, no scripture is given to support the view. So if she is right, how do I learn? Does she have a scriptural reason that I or others could use or do we hide God's word in our hearts and not share them with others? Come on brother. Most people's intentions here are much less nefarious. If she says "let's agree to disagree" it's saying "hey, I respect your view, I can see you won't be persuaded and that I won't be either, so let's move on." That is something Paul did (Rm. 14:1-23; Acts 15:37-39). I'm also fully onboard with iron sharpening iron, but sometimes people want to share thoughts without it always leading to a dispute, if that makes sense. Blessings. |
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Post by mike on Aug 11, 2020 9:11:45 GMT -6
Hello Brothers and sisters, boymaker , mike , fitz , stormyknight , boraddict nana , bernie , Beloved , venge , Natalie, sog inaweofhim , AliciaRæ , yardstick , barbiosheepgirl , BrazenLaver , Gary others This information is from this weeks' [Today, 08/02/20 ] Prophecy Update by J D Farag of Calvary Chapel. Next week, for the weekly Prophecy Update, he is condensing an entire 8 week in-depth series into one hour - Absolute Proof from scripture for the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the church. Should be very very interesting. Can't wait. Regardless of which view you hold, i think it should be very enlightening. I will post the link as soon as it's uploaded. calvarychapelkaneohe.com/prophecy-updates/Disciple4life I started to listen, but when he was dogmatic about 'absolute proof' he lost me. I love that guy and respect him but his 'proof' fails in my estimation. Why? One major reason is his take, which is quite popular, chapter 1 past, 2-3 present, 4 through 22 future. If anyone believes we saw the actual fulfillment of Rev 12 on 9/23/17, this theory is completely wiped out. I continue - the word church is said in chapter 1-3 xxx times, but after not at all until chapter 19. However some may not see the Rev 12 sign as I do and thats ok. The view that Rev is linear is highly flawed in my estimation. His 'proof' is built on this and therefore not proof. We are all fallible and prone to error, I believe he is in his reasoning for his 'proof'. Again love the guy as a brother but cant agree with his progression. Next he talks about the effect on us and Immanency - the way he states this, there is no need to tie to a feast or other event. It could be any single day. Scriptures applied after fit this narrative, but misses the point. We know Jesus is coming and we don't know precisely when. This does not equate to it being tomorrow or the next day. Jesus used this analogy/parable to illustrate the ways the teachers of the day acted. Look at the bible and the treatment of prophets by the religious crowd, governments and those who would be called. We should be living with expectation of the return of the King. Our hearts need to be right every day. Do we really think that if we knew the Lord returned tomorrow we would behave unseemly? So I'll offer another difficult question or two about the Tribulation saints (in a pre-T view). After the Abom of Des. it seems clear the Man of Lawlessness will be killing christians/jews. Who are the elect that the Lord will cut short the time for (Matt 24:22)? Before we are quick to say "them that are saved after the rapture", these suddenly wake up and understand what is going? These same supposed 'trib-saints' now understand the gospel truth well enough that many of them will go on to their death at the hands of the AC? I am asking here as I do not see this. As I look at the world around me, I see the heart of man running towards lawlessness, not away from it. This includes those that call themselves part of the church. Further point of contention is the resurrection. In a pre-T view we have at least three: 1. at the onset of the 70th week/7 yr trib (I would also like 'proof' for a 7 yr time frame as I only see 42 months spelled out several different ways) 2. The two witnesses (maybe we dont count this one) 3. at the end of the Trib for those killed during the time of Jacobs trouble/great Trib, etc. (Rev 20:4-5) 4. at the end of the millenium (Rev 20:5) I am not trying to convince anyone of anything here, just asking some questions that this fine brother doesnt address. I see that scripture is needed to harmonize and with some of the above (just some) I feel he misses the mark. |
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Post by Gary on Aug 11, 2020 12:16:35 GMT -6
That makes sense, but to me it's not quite so stark. To me it is still interesting that the word ekklesia is not used in chapters 6-19, which are largely about the Tribulation. Rev. 12 has a focus on the mid-trib, but also has the interpolation of an astronomical sign (vv. 1-2) and the possible rapture event (v. 5), so it also points backwards as happens often in Semitic chronologies (e.g., Genesis 2).
I would definitely agree though that this isn't absolute proof of the pre-trib rapture, but to me it adds weight, if that makes sense.
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Post by mike on Aug 11, 2020 12:33:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply Gary I'll add another thought. Just some thoughts though, I am not offering 'proof' We are the ingrafted branch, not the natural tree: In a pre-T model, where do the Jews get raised to life? When are they received? If the answer to this is at the end of the big T, I revert back to my resurrection question, meaning there must be three not two. Unless of course I am missing something. |
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 11, 2020 13:59:31 GMT -6
I put some comments in blue, in Mike's quote box below, agreeing with you Mike, and some points of clarity and disagreement with JD. Next he talks about the effect on us and Immanency - the way he states this, there is no need to tie to a feast or other event. It could be any single day. Scriptures applied after fit this narrative, but misses the point. We know Jesus is coming and we don't know precisely when. This does not equate to it being tomorrow or the next day. Jesus used this analogy/parable to illustrate the ways the teachers of the day acted. Look at the bible and the treatment of prophets by the religious crowd, governments and those who would be called. We should be living with expectation of the return of the King. Our hearts need to be right every day. Do we really think that if we knew the Lord returned tomorrow we would behave unseemly? D4L : Definitely understand what you're saying, my friend. I like JD, but totally disagree with him strongly regarding imminency - No scriptural support of this, and the only one is one totally used out of context, and the very notion contradicts the clear teaching of Paul, as well as the other teaching of Christ himself. "No one Knows the Day or Hour" is IMHO, the biggest example of totally taking a verse out of context in the entire Bible.
Aside from the fact that it was a Hebrew idiom, [instantly understood by all his Jewish disciples and followers,] which refers to Feast of trumpets, it also underscores the point that it's a two day feast, so someone could know the 2 day window, but not exactly which year with 100 % certainty six months or years in advance, but just like pregnancy, the water breaking is another sign that it's not days, but hours. The notion of an any-day, any moment, random surprise rapture is totally against scripture. So I'll offer another difficult question or two about the Tribulation saints (in a pre-T view). After the Abom of Des. it seems clear the Man of Lawlessness will be killing christians/jews. Who are the elect that the Lord will cut short the time for (Matt 24:22)? Before we are quick to say "them that are saved after the rapture", these suddenly wake up and understand what is going? These same supposed 'trib-saints' now understand the gospel truth well enough that many of them will go on to their death at the hands of the AC? I am asking here as I do not see this. As I look at the world around me, I see the heart of man running towards lawlessness, not away from it. This includes those that call themselves part of the church.
D4L : Regarding the Tribulation saints, -of course scripture is clear that there will be some who are martyred /beheaded for not worshipping the beast and not taking the mark - But we also have 144,000 witnesses, who is says explicitly are Jewish, 12,000 from each tribe - and for these - yes, the truth will instantly become clear - and their eyes will be opened, **as i think it will be for literally millions of Jews, why?? Because God opens their eyes, in the time of Jacob's trouble, and i think it underscores the point about the rapture happening on the day that all Jews expect that the resurrection will happen. Further point of contention is the resurrection. In a pre-T view we have at least three: 1. at the onset of the 70th week/7 yr trib (I would also like 'proof' for a 7 yr time frame as I only see 42 months spelled out several different ways) 2. The two witnesses (maybe we dont count this one) 3. at the end of the Trib for those killed during the time of Jacobs trouble/great Trib, etc. (Rev 20:4-5) 4. at the end of the millenium (Rev 20:5) D4L : I'm not sure what JD's view is on this, but i think you're making the case for at least three?? amiright? I totally agree, but for those lurking, the Harpazo/rapture happens in a nano-second, twinkling of an eye, just after all the dead Christians are resurrected and we are 'caught up quickly by force' with them in the nano-second just after. I'm not dogmatic on this point, but i think one thing that causes a lot of confusion is that John calls this the First resurrection, in Rev 20, i think, but we recognize that Paul clearly teaches that the dead are resurrected and we are caught up. So the Harpazo is explicitly stated as being Christians [dead in Christ] and the one in Revelation 20 also specifically mentions martyred Christians, but the murkiness comes in regarding "the rest of the dead being raised" at the end of the Millennium - so it could be both Christians and non-Christians raised for the final judgement sentencing. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything here, just asking some questions that this fine brother doesnt address. I see that scripture is needed to harmonize and with some of the above (just some) I feel he misses the mark. D4L : I hope it doesn't seem like i'm arguing here - simply commenting and agreeing with you and sharing how i also think JD is totally mistaken on several points. ;-) I think one of the most common ways that people see the Trib being 7 years is that it is the 70th week - the week of 7 years, that has not yet been fulfilled. Another thing i think that some see- It's not usually taught in churches, but is a rather common view among watchers, and prophecy teachers is that we have two separate time frames, day counts which make up 3 1/2 years. One of these passages says 1260 days, which is 3 1/2 years of Prophetic/Hebrew days and the other is 1290, which corresponds to 3 1/2 years with an extra leap month added. Together these separate day counts make up 7 years. Revelation also says that Jerusalem will be trampled for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Most Bible scholars feel that this is the 2nd half, because the 3rd temple is not built yet, and this is when the AC commits the Abomination of desolation, in the middle of the 7 year prophetic week. Just saw an excellent video from the shoutbox - and the red heifers have been confirmed again, after they passed the two year mark, and they will be able to make the red heifer sacrifice - even without the temple on Aug 20, 2020. They can't even start construction without this, but they could do the sacrifice which is necessary to begin the construction. So they can do the red heifer sacrifice even without the temple, and then preserve the ashes for years and years. That's my two cents. It's total speculation on my part, but i feel strongly that there will be another huge warning water-breaking event, a few days before the Harpazo. Not sure what it is, but i think it will be so big, that watchmen everywhere will know it. www.foxnews.com/weather/a-swarm-of-small-earthquakes-in-california-san-andreas-fault-questionsDisciple4life |
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Post by BrazenLaver on Aug 11, 2020 15:00:30 GMT -6
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
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Post by Gary on Aug 11, 2020 15:47:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply Gary I'll add another thought. Just some thoughts though, I am not offering 'proof' We are the ingrafted branch, not the natural tree: In a pre-T model, where do the Jews get raised to life? When are they received? If the answer to this is at the end of the big T, I revert back to my resurrection question, meaning there must be three not two. Unless of course I am missing something. I'm not fully settled in my mind on this, but I would lean toward post-tribulational, with key passages including Daniel 12, Romans 11, and Ezekiel 37. As I understand it, most, but not all scholars who argue for the pre-trib rapture would place the resurrection of the OT saints around the time of Christ's actual coming to earth after the Tribulation, whereas the rapture is Christ's coming to the Church in the air (1 Thess. 4). I think additional passages add weight to this, like Acts 15, Deuteronomy 32, and Romans 10, wherein God takes a people out of the Gentiles before restoring Israel. An important point is the distinction between national Israel and the Church, and the fact that Christians in the NT are referred to as being "in Christ" and having been baptized in the Spirit, whereas OT saints, though clearly saved by Christ's blood, are distinct. A few articles/posts on the subject: board.unsealed.org/post/28702www.unsealed.org/2016/05/the-first-and-second-resurrections.htmlwalvoord.com/article/109digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=will_knowwww.unsealed.org/2018/06/church-of-firstborn-part-i-certified.htmlwww.unsealed.org/2018/08/church-of-firstborn-part-ii-early-risers.htmlwww.unsealed.org/2018/09/church-of-firstborn-part-iii-raised-up.htmlEvery theologian holding to the pre-trib rapture agrees that there are more than two resurrections (the first resurrection being a type encompassing all of those saved by grace before the Millennium; the second being unto death post-millennium). Matthew 24 and Revelation 20 are pretty clear that there will be a post-trib resurrection and gathering on earth, so I imagine the OT saints will be resurrected at that point. |
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 12, 2020 5:52:06 GMT -6
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
, I'm not sure you're aware, but the content creator for this video is seriously pushing the "black Hebrews" are the only true Jews. Just FYI. It's in many of his other videos. |
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Post by BrazenLaver on Aug 12, 2020 6:03:28 GMT -6
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
, I'm not sure you're aware, but the content creator for this video is seriously pushing the "black Hebrews" are the only true Jews. Just FYI. It's in many of his other videos. Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.  |
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Post by BrazenLaver on Aug 12, 2020 6:41:00 GMT -6
Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 12, 2020 7:06:26 GMT -6
BrazenLaver , I'm not sure you're aware, but the content creator for this video is seriously pushing the "black Hebrews" are the only true Jews. Just FYI. It's in many of his other videos. Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
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