|
|
Post by mike on Apr 15, 2020 9:27:06 GMT -6
It's pretty clear in scripture that God has not appointed us for wrath. How do you view the wrath of God? Is it solely upon flesh & blood, and/or spirit. If solely flesh and blood then I would agree we would be spared from complete destruction but spiritually we would not experience it, even if our bodies be dead, we would be raised to life! 1Thes 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. |
|
|
|
Post by sog on Apr 15, 2020 9:49:56 GMT -6
It's pretty clear in scripture that God has not appointed us for wrath. How do you view the wrath of God? Is it solely upon flesh and blood and/or spirit. If solely flesh and blood then I would agree we would be spared from complete destruction but spiritually we would not experience it, even if our bodies be dead, we would be raised to life! 1Thes 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do., I was hoping to avoid a discussion on that, this being a prayer chain. Would it be possible to move that question to another thread? I just wanted to focus prayers on this family. My apologies brother. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 15, 2020 10:58:28 GMT -6
sog , Done deal brother I'd like to continue the dialogue here if possible. I see the possibility of both: Ps 79:6, Jer 10:25, among many others including Eph 5:6, Col 3:6 But do these and other verses mean that we (not being sons of disobedience) are removed to our eternal locale before this wrath or are simply spared by some other means
|
|
|
|
Post by sog on Apr 15, 2020 16:56:23 GMT -6
sog , Done deal brother I'd like to continue the dialogue here if possible. I see the possibility of both: Ps 79:6, Jer 10:25, among many others including Eph 5:6, Col 3:6 But do these and other verses mean that we (not being sons of disobedience) are removed to our eternal locale before this wrath or are simply spared by some other means , I think every nation has "sons of disobedience" and no nation will be spared. When I think of the bowls of wrath poured out, I think of a bowl of liquid. When you pour out a bowl, it spreads out everywhere, not just in one direction or another. I think that is why the symbolism of the bowls is used. I do think believers in Christ will be spared physically and spiritually from that wrath, meaning we won't be here in either form. Now when that wrath takes place in the timeline is another question. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 17, 2020 6:22:05 GMT -6
mike, sog, Well, if we are going to figure out God's wrath, let us first look at what it is. In the link Mike gave, Ephesians 5:6 and Col 3:6 both refer wrath to the Koine Greek word "Orge" which is an impulse, wrath, anger. The word for wrath, "Orge", doesn't show up in Revelation till Rev 6:16-17 after the 6th seal is opened. And its important to understand, it is the rulers, captains and regular people that say the Lord's wrath is upon them. The believers, faithful and sons of God are not saying this. Because the blind eyed and dull eared announce God's wrath is upon us, is that true? Or is it what they think is true?
The other word used as God's wrath is "Thumos". It is passionate anger and wrath. An example of its use is at Rev 15:1 when the vials of wrath are poured out. But "thlipsis" is used of: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation. It is never God's wrath and it is the word used in Matthew 24:21 which says: As a matter of fact, if you look at the word for great, in great tribulation, you find the word "megas". Strong's says it means: exceeding, great, large (including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also megistos, meizon); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application) -- (+ fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years. The application is, does the great tribulation mean the biggest one ever? Probably Does "great" in great tribulation mean widespread? Probably So the actual meaning most likely is a persecution that is exceedingly widespread and large covering many nations. Why would Christians fear persecution on any level? If persecution was widespread and large, what did earlier Christians do? I will post from biblehub inter Matthew 24:9-13 below with my comments in parenthesis: 1. Then they will deliver you to tribulation (persecution) and kill you and you will be hated by all the nations because of Me; ( tribulation or great tribulation?) 2. And then will fall away many ( like apostasia? the revolt, falling away, defection or stumbling?) and one another they will betray and will hate one another; 3. And many false prophets will arise and will mislead many and because is to be multiplied lawlessness, will grow cold the love of the many; ( coming of AC or beast of the earth ie. false prophet? after a falling away first?) 4. The one having endured to the end, he will be saved ( Rapture?) Just some interesting things I was thinking of. Is God's wrath physical? Yes. Revelation 11:18 says God is to come: and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Is it spiritual? Yes. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
All theories agree we are raised to immortality before God's wrath. So God's wrath would not touch us as we dwell/tabernacle with him. If Christ was to be here doing wrath against the earth, there is no reason we cannot be here with him since we are changed in a blink of an eye and do not need to wait for the persecution to end for that change.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 17, 2020 8:47:22 GMT -6
venge , you referenced Rev 11:18 as physical. Well, yes, but not exclusively. We are getting the spiritual version of what John saw, right? In looking up the word for destroy in this verse I see it as a process. the word for destroy diaphtheirai , it also says this is to waste away by the decaying influence of moral (spiritual) impurity; "utterly corrupt"; becoming thoroughly disabled (morally depraved), to corrupt utterly, through and through. It is in the aorist infinitve active tense, which indicates past action that does not have a specific subject or relative to a specific time. It meaning a past yet ongoing continued action For me this is an ongoing state and not a quick physical destroying action, like shooting a deer. looking at Rev11: 18 again: nd the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'
the other verse that this reminds me of is this: 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity,
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions
... God gave them over to a depraved mind,
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Wrath is not about the burning of forests and volcanos erupting or things of this nature. It is a spiritual decline of one's heart and mind. It is a constant toiling of man with the weeds, if you want to get metaphorical. 18For the wrath of God [Jesus] is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [ Jesus' Gospel] in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God [ knowledge of Good & Evil] is evident within them [ the heart within]; for God made it evident to them [ having a conscious mind] When we are In Christ we are not suppressing the Truth, we know our Lord, we know our Redeemer, we as sinners (the self-centered saying I AM ) is changed THROUGH Him to Him and of Him and not of ourselves. Result is a turning from our ways, and following Him, not our own idea of what is right and wrong, but Truth being revealed daily. Those who are not in this state, suffer an ongoing inner decay, are depraved and unrighteousness is their god. simply stated, those In Chrsit are NOT destined to suffer a [state of] wrath, because we are bathed in the Blood of Jesus, Righteousness, marked as Good, hidden from or immune to the cares of this world because we follow Truth. It is not suppressed from us, it is revealed to us. John the B knew the fakeness of the Pharisees and is why he asked them this: “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (the TRUTH that was to be manifesting)
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 17, 2020 11:17:28 GMT -6
venge YES! This is what I'm saying! We do not experience Gods wrath if we are changed and with Him "in the air" regardless of how we interpret. 2Cor 5:4 So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.I've posted this similar content before but worth a revisit IMO 2Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.Look at verse 13 in the ESV But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.In the above redeemed, raised believers are identified as firstfruits. At least that is how I understand this topic, anyone else see it differently? Then when I see these terms used in Revelation: Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
I see redeemed believers as firstfruits. Those who are raised to life. Redeemed from among men. How do these 144,000 obtain this? No one alive in a flesh suit can be without fault before God, nor have any guile - unless I'm not reading this correctly...How can they follow the Lamb wherever He goes if the Lamb is in heaven and not on earth? No man can learn their song because the men are not part of redeemed!
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 17, 2020 17:44:39 GMT -6
mike , You know, that same verse: Did you notice? The song they sing is not known by the elders. If the elders are the Church, why do they not know the song? I mean, they were raptured to heaven and whats left is only pre Trib saints..so the 144k Jews are redeemed and know a song the elders don't know? Don't answer that  You said, If you take away the view that we are raptured before the 144k come in, Do you think its possible the 144k are redeemed believers being Gentiles and Jews as we are both grafted to the same branch and are Jews inwardly both looking towards God?
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 17, 2020 18:39:21 GMT -6
NO, raised believers of this mystery "harvest" are the Barley, First Approved, but dispensation and the goggles of Ch 4:1 representing the rapture point, veils this revelation...I know this because I was one that went along with the scholars on that ch 4:1 thing. NO I have come to see, hands down, after learning how God gives New Names, WHAT"S IN A NAME! The door is wide open as to what the 144k indeed are.. must stick with scripture. They are First Fruits. No jew Corporately believed before the Gentile, They were cut off from the root, so their fig tree is without fruit, plus a bunch of other metaphors, though they will be Regrafted.. (for those who think I made an anti-Semitic statement).
...because the Elders are not the Church the way we have been taught about what ch 4 of Rev means. I do not know exactly who they are, but they are Twenty And Four. 4 is a number reflective of God's creation, but goes deeper than that in meaning. Twenty represents a complete or perfect waiting period. Elders means they have a covering authority over the church body, perhaps. Like care-takers or something.
And I stop here from copying the quote fully because YES YES YES! Go to Rev Rev11 and see WHY! Paul talks about it a lot in Romans, and Galations, and Hebrews, and I could go on and on...
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Apr 18, 2020 15:00:44 GMT -6
mike , sog , venge , barbiosheepgirl , Regarding the 144k: Can you please explain the quotes below, if they are not jewish virgin males? biblehub.com/niv/revelation/7.htm And noting that Ephraim and Dan are not in the list, but Joseph and his son Manasseh are (1.5 portions); and that Levi, whose descendants had no portion of land in the promised land, but were given the priesthood and 48 cities (found in Numbers 35 here)... biblehub.com/niv/revelation/14.htm(further analysis found here) If they are not jewish virgin males, are you suggesting the vision is symbolic? If so, of whom do the 144k symbolize? I have heard the seventh-day adventists believe the 144k will come only from their group. Lastly, may I suggest that the reason Ephraim and Dan are not in the list is because they are raptured believers (gentile and jew)?
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Apr 18, 2020 15:20:33 GMT -6
... Did you notice? The song they sing is not known by the elders. If the elders are the Church, why do they not know the song? I mean, they were raptured to heaven and whats left is only pre Trib saints..so the 144k Jews are redeemed and know a song the elders don't know? Don't answer that ...
There is more than one song! The elders and 4 creatures have a song, and the 144k have a different song:
biblehub.com/revelation/5-9.htm"...a new song..." indicates that they were singing a different song before. Maybe this one: biblehub.com/niv/revelation/4.htmThe 144k have a song no one else can learn: biblehub.com/revelation/14-3.htmWhy is the 144k song not written down to quote? Because not even John could learn it, so as to write it down! WE cannot learn it either! I would speculate that either the language is unlearnable and we cannot interpret it; or the words they are using are comprehensible, but they cannot 'stick' in our thoughts so as to be memorized... |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Apr 18, 2020 15:47:52 GMT -6
... I will answer for those in Rio Linda, because the Elders are not the Church the way we have been taught about what ch 4 of Rev means. I do not know exactly who they are, but they are Twenty And Four. 4 is a number reflective of God's creation, but goes deeper than that in meaning. Twenty represents a complete or perfect waiting period. Elders means they have a covering authority over the church body, perhaps. Like care-takers or something. And I stop here from copying the quote fully because YES YES YES! Go to Rev Rev11 and see WHY! Paul talks about it a lot in Romans, and Galations, and Hebrews, and I could go on and on... Please DO go on and on, so that us 'Linda' people can understand how you drew your conclusions... |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 18, 2020 17:19:06 GMT -6
Something jumped out at me when you mentioned those various songs. If you look at the account in 1Chronicles and I am still studying this as it kinda daunting, but here is a key verse 1Ch 25:6All these were under the direction of their father to sing in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, harps and lyres, for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun and Heman were under the direction of the king. 7Their number who were trained in singing to the LORD, with their relatives, all who were skillful, was 288.
For me it is the patterns we are shown in the OT which I believe was the physical representation of our future Kingdom and Temple. Those redeemed of specific to Jesus' bond-servanthood would sing a song of their own. This means that they are not part of the purpose the elders have, nor the 4 living creatures, nor even the saints perhaps. yardstick , Yes the spiritual things shown (heaven's point of view) to John are not necessarily 1 = 1. A = A. If we are to take it literally physical, then explain to me how two lampstands and two olives trees become alive as human beings. Vision of Fantasia comes to mind with the brooms... I do not think that is what the 2 witnesses literally are. The identity of what and who and why the 2 witnesses is does not mean it has to be two literal people. It means something more than that. It has to do with stuff In Ezekiel and in Hebrews, but I don't want to get off track. So, when we are baptized in Christ we receive new names, no? How do we know who we really are from heaven's perspective? Virgin, not defiled by women, and male signify born again, not seeking the desires of their flesh (woman was taken from flesh, not the dust of the earth), and male for the reasons of the role the male was given if you go back and look at Genesis, and what Paul teaches. Paul states Gal 3:28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;
but also he states this 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.Are women excluded from being sons of Abraham? Not according to the Spirit from how I understand it
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 19, 2020 4:52:47 GMT -6
... Did you notice? The song they sing is not known by the elders. If the elders are the Church, why do they not know the song? I mean, they were raptured to heaven and whats left is only pre Trib saints..so the 144k Jews are redeemed and know a song the elders don't know? Don't answer that ...
There is more than one song! The elders and 4 creatures have a song, and the 144k have a different song:
biblehub.com/revelation/5-9.htm"...a new song..." indicates that they were singing a different song before. Maybe this one: biblehub.com/niv/revelation/4.htmThe 144k have a song no one else can learn: biblehub.com/revelation/14-3.htmWhy is the 144k song not written down to quote? Because not even John could learn it, so as to write it down! WE cannot learn it either! I would speculate that either the language is unlearnable and we cannot interpret it; or the words they are using are comprehensible, but they cannot 'stick' in our thoughts so as to be memorized... Pretty sure I said don't answer that. |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 19, 2020 6:03:13 GMT -6
mike , sog , venge , barbiosheepgirl , Regarding the 144k: Can you please explain the quotes below, if they are not jewish virgin males? biblehub.com/niv/revelation/7.htm And noting that Ephraim and Dan are not in the list, but Joseph and his son Manasseh are (1.5 portions); and that Levi, whose descendants had no portion of land in the promised land, but were given the priesthood and 48 cities (found in Numbers 35 here)... biblehub.com/niv/revelation/14.htm(further analysis found here) If they are not jewish virgin males, are you suggesting the vision is symbolic? If so, of whom do the 144k symbolize? I have heard the seventh-day adventists believe the 144k will come only from their group. Lastly, may I suggest that the reason Ephraim and Dan are not in the list is because they are raptured believers (gentile and jew)? First point: It's important to recognize this is an uninterpreted vision that needs interpreting. Daniel, Joseph, Ezekiel, Paul and many others had visions and in each one the end result was literal but the vision itself was not literal. The visions were to convey a larger message with real world literal application. 2nd Point: Why are 144k called virgins (Revelation 14:4)? Its not that they physically separate themselves from women and abstain from sex. This isn't something God looks for nor is that taught anywhere by Christ as something we need to do in order to achieve faith, love, joy, happiness etc. The virgins symbolize their abstaining from harlotry. This puts their presence directly in the same time period of the harlot Babylon which Rev. says "with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication." (Revelation 17:2) It is their status as separated from the world that they are called virgins. (2 Cor 11:2) That is not a literal sense. 3rd Point: They are called servants of God. (Revelation 7:3) Who are the servants of God but those that do his will? Gentile or Jew...does it matter? For Paul testified that we are all one of the same that serve God. The true Church of God is the Christian, not that we are superior to the Jew..No!, but that we worship God in the spirit and were taught by Christ having not searched for God, but God out of the abundance of his heart allowed us in and grafted us to true Israel and heirs of the promise to which we cause the Jews to be jealous of. No, the Jews will receive great things in the time to come when their hardened hearts are changed and their eyes are unblinded, but they will be Christians then as well. For Paul said to us, who is a Jew but one inwardly. And again he said not all Israel is of Israel. Paul testifies multiple times we are a part of Israel. If we are symbolically and spiritually true Israel, is it hard to see we are also symbolically and spiritually of the tribes where each tribe like the Churches have their own issues they wrestle with? 4th Point: If we take a literal application to it, the preceding verses of Rev 7:1-3 must be taken literally. The angels would pronounce judgment on the earth (not the inhabitants), the sea (not the inhabitants) and the tree's. Not man? The Harlot would be a real lady if not identified by the angel it is a city, the dragon is literal, its 7 heads are literal, the beast of the sea and earth are literal beasts, Jerusalem floating down from the sky to earth is literal, demon locusts and on and on..We would also have to take account that the number is literally 144k and that it means nothing else, the lamb standing on Mt Zion is literal, the writing on the foreheads of the Jews is literally written for all to see and the Jews must abstain from sex is also literal. This would all need to be carefully explained if it were the case. 5th Point: The 144k are redeemed, purchased from among men. If they are bought for a price, its obviously Christ death on the cross for the remission of sins that they are redeemed. That is available to anyone who submits to his will. (1 Peter 1:18-19) (Acts 20:28) How then, if these be converted Jews, are removed before Jacob's trouble (Trumpets/Bowls) - the point before things get bad? Who converted them? Do not all Jews who practice need to endure till they see Christ coming in the clouds, the one they pierced? For any Jew that is converted is a Christian of the same tree for we are all of Abraham's seed. I will Pause here for now. I have more on the possible meaning of the 144k number, and other things but I want others mike , sog , barbiosheepgirl , to be able to comment as well |
|
