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Post by disciple4life on Mar 29, 2020 15:59:34 GMT -6
Hello my fellow watchmen !!
As watchmen, we read and study and keep one eye on the scripture and the other on the news [or rather the world as the death rate rises and anxiety becomes more intense with each passing week] we struggle with the tension between sounding the alarm - waking up the sleeping sheep/Christians, and yet not being consumed by the fear and hysteria fueled by the media.
It's a hard balance to walk. So as those who are called to be sheepdogs, watching and waiting, to warn the sheep, to sound the alarm, and not be surprised by the wolves in sheep's clothing - here is another point to ponder. Who was the one who comes before the Messiah? 
I was reminded of the words of a friend, and well-respected end-times teacher who said that "we stand on the shoulders of many other Bible teachers and watchers before us" and how we should glean all we can from others.
It was watching a video of Nelson Walters that was the catalyst for this thought, and then a video by Paul watchman Dawson - "04/04 Dalet, the Door" and thinking about Passover in the coming weeks, and the thread of Coronavirus, that another piece of the puzzle came to mind. Who was the one who comes before the Messiah. Or Who is the one who comes before the Second Advent of Christ/ the Harpazo.
I would love to hear your thoughts. There is a lot of buzz, excitement about Nisan 10 - and this is a very significant day- and one almost entirely ignored/ overlooked by Christians.
It was the day that the lambs were selected and presented for the coming Passover sacrifice. It was also the day that the Children of Israel crossed the Jordan river, to go into the promised land. "Crossing the Jordan" is also a centuries old and well-known metaphor for death/dying.
There is also a growing belief and very interesting circumstantial evidence for a Passover Rapture, and thus these two days Nisan 10 and Nisan 14th have a lot of people watching intently.
- So this will make much more sense if you watch Nelson Walter's recent video here - He does very impressive research, and all the circumstances add up perfectly with what's happening in the world around us. As more countries and states enforce "lockdown" we also see more 'commerce shutting' down.
- Who was the One Who Comes Before the Messiah?? and why is it relevant to us and end times?? There are multiple scriptures that clearly show that John the Baptist was a type/ picture of Elijah. Christ himself even said this explicitly, and scripture says that the disciples understood this connection.
 - Every Passover , Jews all over the world, have an empty place at the seder table for Elijah - who was prophesied by Malachi as coming before the Messiah.
- John was asked if he was the Messiah, and if he was Elijah - and he said he was not. ***He was making clear with this statement that he was not Elijah reincarnated. He was not literally the Messiah - he prepared the way. He came before the Messiah.
- John the Baptist came into the world 6 months before Christ.
- Passover is about six months before the Fall - Feast of Trumpets.
- This lines up perfectly with the Jewish concept of the Elijah coming before the Messiah. [It also fits perfectly with Elijah being one of the two witnesses, in the middle of Daniel's 70th week - 7 year tribulation.
- The coronavirus is another huge, huge sign, that is so significant that it has got the attention of the entire world, and another converging sign. This convergence comes at a time when the red heifers are 2 years old, and we are seeing talks of a "temporary global [one-world government], signs in the heavens, blood moons, and wars, and earthquakes in diverse places and cyber data-base along with micro-chips already in use that track and record banking personal ID and health information, and is being proposed as a way to know who has been tested and who has been vaccinated.
- Nelson also makes the very compelling case that Passover is often seen and understood as when the AC does the Abomination of Desolation - standing in the Holy Place. 3 1/2 years back from Passover 2024 is Fall 2020.
- No one can deny that Christ and Paul as well as other writers of the Bible gave us clues about the rapture and resurrection.
- We have to ask ourselves two very important questions, only one can be correct. 1. Either I think that Christ and Paul were telling us this to deceive us [throw us off the trail]? Or 2. I think that Christ and Paul and the OT Prophets gave us these clues so that we will watch, and not be surprised like a thief in the night. We can trust his word.
Maranatha,
Disciple4life |
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 29, 2020 20:34:46 GMT -6
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 30, 2020 8:13:39 GMT -6
23“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”
6‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH,
ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH;
FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER
WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’”
18“A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE.”
15“THE LAND OF ZEBULUN AND THE LAND OF NAPHTALI,
BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, BEYOND THE JORDAN, GALILEE OF THE GENTILES—
16“THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT,
AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH,
UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED. disciple4life , just curious. These are quotes that the bible I use, has in caps, and is referencing prophecy being fulfilled by Messiah. Some of these events are BEFORE John the Baptist voice crying in the wilderness. I am just curious if today's Jew is looking toward Bethleham? Nazareth? Egypt? a virgin to be pregnant? My point is the prophecies concerning His First Advent written by Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. And, what do they do with Isaiah 53? There is one passage used in the gospels for John the Baptist, but what about all the ones that actually point to the Messiah Himself?
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Post by venge on Mar 30, 2020 10:28:58 GMT -6
Though Nelson Walters posts some interesting things on his blog, many that make people think outside the box - yes, me too - it’s my opinion that he is stuck trying to prove himself right then just speaking the word. That’s not an insult to @d4l for listening to him because other people make us think ways we didn’t previously and we use those thoughts and dig deep ourselves dividing truth from falsehood in the scriptures. Nelson published a blog on the wedding: www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/the-rapture/wedding-of-the-lamb/Can you see all the issues in the blog? I’ll give an example. In order to justify a pre wrath theory that the rapture happens after the 6th seal, Nelson refers to Rev 7 and says: “The fourth scene is immediately after the wedding of the Lamb. In this scene we have already looked at the saints have put on their white garments! They are now wearing the righteousness of Jesus! After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” (Rev. 7:9-10 NASB, emphasis mine) Here we see the same “great multitude” as in Rev. 19 now wearing their robes and holding Palm Branches. IMO, the wedding of the Lamb has taken place in heaven signified by the wearing of the garments.” He places the rapture following the 6th seal but before the 1st Trumpet. What Nelson fails to see IMO, is that he says previously to this in Rev 19: “This scene is immediately upon the Rapture. The saints appear to be in heaven in human bodies and appear to no longer be under the altar of God. They are also no longer told to wait to put on their white garments. This indicates the Resurrection has taken place and the wedding of the Lamb is about to take place. The saints have not put on their white garments yet, however, but the wedding of the Lamb seems tied to the wearing of these garments as that is how the Bride makes herself “ready.”” He identifies the wedding with the rapture. But failed to show that previous to the wedding scene that Christ is said to begin to reign. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready Since Christ begins to reign at the wedding and Nelson identifies the wedding with the rapture, all that is needed is to identify when Christ begins to reign. For that, you can view Rev 11 at the 7th Trumpet. Now, I’m not here to argue or debate my belief. I’m merely saying he is not putting all scripture out there together. That doesn’t make him bad or false. But we need to look ourselves at scripture before and after what is posted online for a complete understanding. By Nelson avoiding Christ begins to reign at the wedding, he can easily push a rapture at Rev 7. I had wrote to him months ago on this issue, but didn’t get a response. What’s interesting is that I agree with Nelson. Rev 7 is part of the rapture. But with ignoring Christ reign, he cannot put its placement correctly and thereby will not fit Rev 7’s placement either taking a strict sequential approach Btw, I’m not trying to change your subject D4L. I think you raised an interesting valid question I’m still contemplating how to answer lol |
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 30, 2020 16:46:18 GMT -6
Hello barbiosheepgirl, Your questions are both good and valid. BSG said "I am just curious if today's Jew is looking toward Bethleham? Nazareth? Egypt? a virgin to be pregnant? My point is the prophecies concerning His First Advent written by Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. And, what do they do with Isaiah 53? There is one passage used in the gospels for John the Baptist, but what about all the ones that actually point to the Messiah Himself?" I don't know for sure, but think a big factor is how their eyes and hearts are blinded at this time - until the end of the church age, and the time of Jacob's troubles begins. What boggles my mind, barbiosheepgirl, besides these big questions about a virgin with child, and from Bethlehem, and from the Line of Judah, is how they can't see Christ so clearly in the Passover. The pictures of Christ are staggering and they can't even see it. If they don't recognize Yeshua in the Passover, how would they recognize the two witnesses? |
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Post by venge on Mar 31, 2020 3:07:56 GMT -6
Better yet, how do they recognize 2 witnesses when they couldn’t recognize a multitude of witnesses and the 12 disciples.
I think their hearts, not the religion, will be changed and Christ will manifest himself to them. Specifically, it’s my assumption that they comprise part of those in Rev 11 after the 2 witnesses are raised that give glory to God.
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Post by venge on Mar 31, 2020 6:13:33 GMT -6
Let me add, John 14:21-23...think that’s it, talks about those who do Christ commandments love him and the Father. And he will manifest himself to them and abode within them.
Does Christ manifest himself so that ONLY believers can see him on that day? I don’t know. He appeared unto many after his resurrection but they were believers. Perhaps unbelievable persons cannot see him.
Paul heard his voice but the other men only heard thunder. Makes me wonder......
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 31, 2020 10:31:54 GMT -6
Let me add, John 14:21-23...think that’s it, talks about those who do Christ commandments love him and the Father. And he will manifest himself to them and abode within them. Does Christ manifest himself so that ONLY believers can see him on that day? I don’t know. He appeared unto many after his resurrection but they were believers. Perhaps unbelievable persons cannot see him. Paul heard his voice but the other men only heard thunder. Makes me wonder...... venge, I think it's hard to make the argument conclusively either way. Scripture doesn't say he didn't appear to anyone else. When we look at scripture and realize that he was alive 40 days before the ascension into heaven, it seems very unlikely that he just appeared to disciples - those who already believed.
Also, there are literally countless stories of people from Muslim countries who came to know Christ because he appeared/ manifested himself to them in dreams and visions. We saw this demonstrated in a remarkable way when the "Passion of the Christ" movie was made. Muslims were watching this, because they heard/ thought it would be antagonistic towards Jews.
Also, when at the time Christ revealed himself audibly and visibly to Paul, he was not a believer. It was the result of Christ revealing Himself to Paul that he became a believer. But I digress.
I know a lot of people are hoping and watching 04/04 Nisan 10th the Day the Lambs were selected as a possible date, due to the alignment of Venus and Pleiades and many are looking to Passover because of the plague, and this timing of the Coronavirus. I know that if someone believes in a "surprise, any day, imminent rapture" then any day is as good as any other, but the entire concept of "any minute/ surprise rapture" is nowhere in scripture.
In fact it's directly counter to multiple other passages, and furthermore - it's the result of people taking scripture out of context - that causes them to be deceived. Malachi told us that Elijah would come before the Messiah, and Christ himself said that John the Baptist was like Elijah. [Not literally Elijah, because that would mean reincarnation]
Some are members here, some are guests, and some are lurking- maybe just curious, to make some sense of this virus, or maybe because they have a "Crazy Aunt Clara" who talks about End times. ***It's really funny when you think of it, because even with all the different views of Pre-Tribulation, mid-tribulation rapture, Pre-wrath or Post-tribulation rapture, we all believe that in the 1000 year millenium, so we can agree and say with certainty, "No, this is not the end of the world- We have at least 1000 years more. "
Totally separate from the issues of Pre-Tribulation, or mid-Trib, or Post Trib issues, or AC or literal 3rd Temple or symbolic, and virtually every other topic related to end times - we have to first address the two questions. We are watchmen on the wall - we are sheepdogs, watching over the sheep and watching for wolves who would destroy the sheep. So we believe there are markers, there are signs in the heavens and signs in the earth, and we discuss prophecies that foretold of the Second Advent, and events of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, and the Feasts, and Revel 12 sign, and one world government, and candidates for the Anti-Christ, and bacon, and so much more  But why?? One is because we are trying to be like the Bereans, and searching the scriptures to see if these things are true. Most if not all of the members here, - though we have diverse views and backgrounds, are not happy to simply be spoonfed and take everything we are told by blind faith.
The other is that we believe that signs point to something ahead, whether it's Falling Rocks or Cracker Barrel. It's either a warning or something good. ;-) So as we enter the season of Passover and Resurrection Day, - we should reflect on the wonder and joy of what Christ's death and resurrection means for us.
His final word on the Cross was not a pathetic phrase of "It's Finished" like after doing your taxes or remodeling your house, - it was "Tetelestai" which was a widely-used term of accounting and literally means "Paid in Full".
1. Either we believe that all the clues from Christ himself, and Paul and the prophets were given to deceive us - to trick us and throw us off track" - [In which case we can't trust anything in the Bible] or else 2. We believe that the clues and signs and words and prophecies given to us were real, to tell us when to expect his Second Advent - and so that "we will not be surprised like a thief in the night." and that we will be found as wise bridesmaids.
He is Risen Indeed
Next year in Jerusalem.
Disciple4life.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 31, 2020 10:53:26 GMT -6
I guess one thing that confuses me about all this, and I admit it's not something I have tried to find an answer to, is what Jesus said about John. Matthew 11:14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come." Because we accept Jesus as the Messiah, does that mean that John was Elijah (not reincarnated but symbolically)? But the Jews still looking for Elijah because they didn't accept it?
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Post by mike on Mar 31, 2020 10:56:57 GMT -6
I guess one thing that confuses me about all this, and I admit it's not something I have tried to find an answer to, is what Jesus said about John. Matthew 11:14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come." Because we accept Jesus as the Messiah, does that mean that John was Elijah (not reincarnated but symbolically)? But the Jews still looking for Elijah because they didn't accept it? I think thats the case. Having been 'educated' in a Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine, I recall the view as Mal 3:1 was John and 4:5 is prior to Christ return, however I am not of that persuasion |
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Post by venge on Mar 31, 2020 11:04:19 GMT -6
Let me add, John 14:21-23...think that’s it, talks about those who do Christ commandments love him and the Father. And he will manifest himself to them and abode within them. Does Christ manifest himself so that ONLY believers can see him on that day? I don’t know. He appeared unto many after his resurrection but they were believers. Perhaps unbelievable persons cannot see him. Paul heard his voice but the other men only heard thunder. Makes me wonder...... venge, I think it's hard to make the argument conclusively either way. Scripture doesn't say he didn't appear to anyone else. When we look at scripture and realize that he was alive 40 days before the ascension into heaven, it seems very unlikely that he just appeared to disciples - those who already believed.
Also, there are literally countless stories of people from Muslim countries who came to know Christ because he appeared/ manifested himself to them in dreams and visions. We saw this demonstrated in a remarkable way when the "Passion of the Christ" movie was made. Muslims were watching this, because they heard/ thought it would be antagonistic towards Jews.
Also, when at the time Christ revealed himself audibly and visibly to Paul, he was not a believer. It was the result of Christ revealing Himself to Paul that he became a believer. But I digress.
I know a lot of people are hoping and watching 04/04 Nisan 10th the Day the Lambs were selected as a possible date, due to the alignment of Venus and Pleiades and many are looking to Passover because of the plague, and this timing of the Coronavirus. I know that if someone believes in a "surprise, any day, imminent rapture" then any day is as good as any other, but the entire concept of "any minute/ surprise rapture" is nowhere in scripture.
In fact it's directly counter to multiple other passages, and furthermore - it's the result of people taking scripture out of context - that causes them to be deceived. Malachi told us that Elijah would come before the Messiah, and Christ himself said that John the Baptist was like Elijah. [Not literally Elijah, because that would mean reincarnation]
Some are members here, some are guests, and some are lurking- maybe just curious, to make some sense of this virus, or maybe because they have a "Crazy Aunt Clara" who talks about End times. ***It's really funny when you think of it, because even with all the different views of Pre-Tribulation, mid-tribulation rapture, Pre-wrath or Post-tribulation rapture, we all believe that in the 1000 year millenium, so we can agree and say with certainty, "No, this is not the end of the world- We have at least 1000 years more. "
Totally separate from the issues of Pre-Tribulation, or mid-Trib, or Post Trib issues, or AC or literal 3rd Temple or symbolic, and virtually every other topic related to end times - we have to first address the two questions. We are watchmen on the wall - we are sheepdogs, watching over the sheep and watching for wolves who would destroy the sheep. So we believe there are markers, there are signs in the heavens and signs in the earth, and we discuss prophecies that foretold of the Second Advent, and events of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, and the Feasts, and Revel 12 sign, and one world government, and candidates for the Anti-Christ, and bacon, and so much more But why?? One is because we are trying to be like the Bereans, and searching the scriptures to see if these things are true. Most if not all of the members here, - though we have diverse views and backgrounds, are not happy to simply be spoonfed and take everything we are told by blind faith.
The other is that we believe that signs point to something ahead, whether it's Falling Rocks or Cracker Barrel. It's either a warning or something good. ;-) So as we enter the season of Passover and Resurrection Day, - we should reflect on the wonder and joy of what Christ's death and resurrection means for us.
His final word on the Cross was not a pathetic phrase of "It's Finished" like after doing your taxes or remodeling your house, - it was "Tetelestai" which was a widely-used term of accounting and literally means "Paid in Full".
1. Either we believe that all the clues from Christ himself, and Paul and the prophets were given to deceive us - to trick us and throw us off track" - [In which case we can't trust anything in the Bible] or else 2. We believe that the clues and signs and words and prophecies given to us were real, to tell us when to expect his Second Advent - and so that "we will not be surprised like a thief in the night." and that we will be found as wise bridesmaids.
He is Risen Indeed
Next year in Jerusalem.
Disciple4life.
I was trying to convey the fact Christ manifested himself to others besides the 12. He appeared to hundreds of others. I realize people can be brought to Christ through movies and other mediums such as radio to which the spirit dwells within. We are all sinners that first need to believe therefore we previously had unbelief or at least were ignorant of him. I’m just happy that whatever things we agree/disagree on, God is in control. Not me, not you- Not Trump lol. And that when we are forever with him, our true family will be there. I think that’s the best part. When Christ is seen, it’s not a “see I told you he’s real” or “you wicked are in trouble now!” It’s just speechlessness and tears of joy followed by rejoicing. I wish the unbelieving could understand how great love could be in faith. |
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 31, 2020 14:02:45 GMT -6
Natalie , yes, i think the way you stated it is correct. **But the Jews believe Elijah came literally and he lived before Malachi. So they accept/ recognize Elijah but didn't accept Jesus/Yeshua as Messiah. They believe he will come back before the Messiah comes. I missed the part you mentioned mike. I didn't understand the charismatic teaching on this related to John the Baptist.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 31, 2020 19:13:49 GMT -6
This phrase is something I was taught in the past 15 or so years and it doesn't makes sense to me anymore. So I agree with you d4L that I have never found a pattern of it in the scriptures, tho, have not read the entire 66 books..so… I have not seen a pre-rapture Rapture according to how people tell me how it is to look. I see a HUGE gathering, but after a smaller event of Witnessing..and I am not talking about the past 2000 years. I referencing the first 5 verses of Rev 14...
Here's are a couple more questions:
If the Maji were important enough to mention in the gospel accounts, and we, with stellarium can say Jupiter/Venus conjunction back in 3/4 BC or so, then is that something the the modern day Jew ALSO compares scripture with? I mean, back in that day the used the night sky for navigation, the moon for months & feasts, and sun too, for Sabbath start, etc. So if I were human found wandering in the Northern Territories and met a Jew, what would the Jew of today tell me is the Sign of His (1st) Coming? and, being not a jew, would that Jew even THINK it was important to me? See, I keep falling back onto the notion that the modern day Jew is seeking the "king" to help them subdue their enemies. JUST like back in the day of the Roman period. They are not looking STILL for shedding their fleshly desires. Am I wrong?
Is Elijah their only sign? Just asking.
Is there a huge possibility we are missing the purpose of what the "rapture" is? Sometimes I see many longing to be this Bride, when the story is about receiving a Husband. A Covering! A Head (of household)...sorry, I am a little old-fashioned 52 year-old, otter/lion/golden! A Provider, and WE BEING THE HELPER!!!!
but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
This is not a sexist argument, this is the law of God spoken in Word found in Genesis which harkens to the very type found in the Believer. If we, the church, are to be the Bride, then there is more detail then just this marriage. We are House-wife, We are Helper, We are ALSO protected by Him, held to account THROUGH Him, Just sayin...
The parallels are there and I think we were missing the overall Plan by not understanding the purpose of said Rapture. The Wife will bear children! Is this not the command? be fruitful and multiply...
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