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Post by disciple4life on Mar 2, 2020 15:46:29 GMT -6
Thanks for the words and explanation, venge. That is helpful. 😉 I'm the same, in that I'm better with spoken words than written sometimes. I told Mike I need a bit less Lion/driver and a bit more Otter/Expressive. [referring to the four personality types. I'm basically 60% Otter/ Expressive/Lets have Fun: 40% Lion/Driver/Task oriented. 😂 My views are changing and evolving. Revelation/ Daniel are so very very different than any other Bible books or genre with tons of allegory and symbolism but some things literal/physical. I think everyone agrees on that. There will be literally 144,000 circumcised Jewish witnesses, And an actual person who will be the AC. etc. But many scholars see it as not strictly chronological/ with some overlapping events. I'll think a bit and try to reply clearly and briefly. Blessings my brother. Disciple4Life |
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Post by stormyknight on Mar 3, 2020 10:09:43 GMT -6
I hope you guys don't mind my chiming in here, but this has been a very good example of 'lost in translation'(although it's not actually lost). My mind shifted into gear, venge, when you mentioned the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember him, you asked,"why would he ask such a question?" and Jesus' reply was, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43. We have to keep in mind that the words both spoke were probably Aramaic. They were then translated into Greek quite a long time later, then even longer, into English. Having faith that God made sure the thought was passed from translation to translation, it's no wonder at all that we, today, can differ in our belief of the meaning because of our own unique walks in life. The actual words spoken were probably not so formal. I lean toward something like this: "Believe me, (Thief 1), (since I can see you've repented of your ways), now(sémeron: today. Usage: today, now.) you will be with me on that day that I come into My Kingdom(paradise)". Maybe He wouldn't have been so wordy, but, you get my point, right? So the older the book, the more likely the feeling of what is written changes, while the thought is still there if one only digs into it to find it. So you see, putting your thoughts into written words and then hoping that those who read it will understand what you mean is not new. Imagine the pressure Mark had, knowing he had to get what he was told to write down correct. Don't you think maybe there were occasions when Paul may have said one word when he meant another? We all do it. We once again must have faith and let God's Holy Spirit guide us in our understanding.
Things are not the way they used to be. Here at the end, the ease at which one can slip is scary. May Jesus, our Messiah, guard us and guide us these last few miles. All Glory to the King of Kings!
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Post by mike on Mar 3, 2020 12:02:32 GMT -6
Venge & D4L - thank you both for the replies! Love and appreciate you both having the heart of a servant, showing what great examples you are of the body, to the body and to unbelievers as you humbled yourselves to prefer one another. You both have sooooo much to offer not only here, but with the people you interact with daily.
As Stormy just pointed out, we often miss tone, intent and other non-verbal queues when writing leaving us to have to dig a little more to help understand what the writer intended. I do what Venge does all the time and it bothers me. I'll re-read something before clicking 'send' and it still sounds okay to me, but the response(s) often seem to miss the intent or meaning and questions are the result. Then thinking I've said things already clearly, I misinterpret the reply as debate or challenge and tension often ensues.
Heb 10:25b but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
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Post by venge on Mar 4, 2020 8:12:36 GMT -6
I hope you guys don't mind my chiming in here, but this has been a very good example of 'lost in translation'(although it's not actually lost). My mind shifted into gear, venge , when you mentioned the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember him, you asked,"why would he ask such a question?" and Jesus' reply was, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43. We have to keep in mind that the words both spoke were probably Aramaic. They were then translated into Greek quite a long time later, then even longer, into English. Having faith that God made sure the thought was passed from translation to translation, it's no wonder at all that we, today, can differ in our belief of the meaning because of our own unique walks in life. The actual words spoken were probably not so formal. I lean toward something like this: "Believe me, (Thief 1), (since I can see you've repented of your ways), now(sémeron: today. Usage: today, now.) you will be with me on that day that I come into My Kingdom(paradise)". Maybe He wouldn't have been so wordy, but, you get my point, right? So the older the book, the more likely the feeling of what is written changes, while the thought is still there if one only digs into it to find it. So you see, putting your thoughts into written words and then hoping that those who read it will understand what you mean is not new. Imagine the pressure Mark had, knowing he had to get what he was told to write down correct. Don't you think maybe there were occasions when Paul may have said one word when he meant another? We all do it. We once again must have faith and let God's Holy Spirit guide us in our understanding.
Things are not the way they used to be. Here at the end, the ease at which one can slip is scary. May Jesus, our Messiah, guard us and guide us these last few miles. All Glory to the King of Kings!
And that is how I see it stormyknightI know I have mentioned, in a post long long ago, that we don't know where the comma was. "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" assumes that very day or "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Both acknowledge the end result is the thief's recognition of the divine on the cross and his subsequent reward in paradise to happen. But was in that day or when Christ comes into his kingdom. I really like the interpretation you put forth here: His faith secured his admittance into Christ kingdom. That is the main context of it! Without a doubt! Without seeing facial expressions, body language, slang vs proper usage etc...we need the HS to guide us. But the fact remains, we know it is truth. It happened, Christ happened and I believe all these things did happen in some way either literal to the words itself or the literal application of it through other means we haven't understood because of their language. Either way, it is truth. |
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 4, 2020 13:36:46 GMT -6
Very good point, stormyknight. We're always happy to have you chime in.😉 that's what makes it a community forum. I agree 100% percent- grammar matters. It's the difference between "Let's eat grandma!" And "Let's eat, grandma!" Heheh The issue is complex indeed. I've studied four languages formally and on one hand, the z holy spirit has guarded/protected scripture so the essential doctrines of Salvation are preserved and presented. On the other hand, There certainly are mistranslations, and some things do in fact just don't translate or the meaning is lost because its meaning is to the specific culture in a specific century. One expert in textual criticism pointed out- the errors are something like 1%, and when we compare scripture to any other ancient manuscripts, no other manuscripts in history are even close in terms of number of copies within the lifetime of the original authors. |
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Post by venge on Mar 4, 2020 16:36:49 GMT -6
Very good point, stormyknight . We're always happy to have you chime in.😉 that's what makes it a community forum. I agree 100% percent- grammar matters. It's the difference between "Let's eat grandma!" And "Let's eat, grandma!" Heheh The issue is complex indeed. I've studied four languages formally and on one hand, the z holy spirit has guarded/protected scripture so the essential doctrines of Salvation are preserved and presented. On the other hand, There certainly are mistranslations, and some things do in fact just don't translate or the meaning is lost because its meaning is to the specific culture in a specific century. One expert in textual criticism pointed out- the errors are something like 1%, and when we compare scripture to any other ancient manuscripts, no other manuscripts in history are even close in terms of number of copies within the lifetime of the original authors. "Let's eat grandma!" And "Let's eat, grandma! Is that a Little Red riding hood analogy? =P You must have kids |
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Post by telaine on Mar 8, 2020 0:28:35 GMT -6
So, I am new to this site and just figured out how to post. I am excited to find this site as it confirms much of what I have been learning through self study. I just have to say this about the "rapture". The pre, mid and post trib supporters are all correct. My father is a pre-trib because he died in 2014. Those who have recently died at the hands of evil in China, Syria, etc are mid-trib because they died in the mist of this final tribulation season, and I may be also when I refuse the mark and die at the hands of those who seek to kill those not taking the mark, and my daughter may be a post-trib if she is alive and remains at the coming of our Lord "AFTER the tribulation" as it says in Matthew 29-31 when he comes and sends His angels to "gather His elect from the four winds...". I agree that there will be a final time when all those who have trusted Jesus as their Savior are caught up (AKA rapture) but many are taken earlier. God is outside of time and He comes when we least expect it. He could come for me tonight and it would still be in His timing. I have a novel thought that if all the saints died thousands of years apart but God is outside of time, it will be like we are all "raptured" at the same "time". We should just keep doing what He gives us to do until our time to be "caught up". If we think we are going to escape the great tribulation, we may be lulled into thinking we have no role during these last days. We are to be lights in the darkness and tell all those who are not yet saved what is truly happening. We are living in the last days. Do not ever tell someone that they will be raptured out of the tribulation. That would be like telling that to the believing women in Syria at the Turkey border who are leaving a war torn region. It is possibly the biggest lie of all to say believers will not be here during the tribulation time. Tell that to those being persecuted and killed now. Noah did not escape the flood; he went through it. Moses did not lead the people out of Egypt before the plagues; they left AFTER that time of tribulation. God is the same today as He was yesterday. We will not suffer His wrath but I believe through study that we will be here in the tribulation. Some die before it, some during it and some are caught up alive and transformed at the coming of our Lord. Just my opinion. Your posts and this site are so awesome. Keeping us informed according to scripture and prophecy is excellent work. But we must also take this out to the unbelievers who will not enter this site. We must spend more time telling people what is going on than blogging each other. Not a problem to blog, but let it be only to equip us to enter the harvest. Gary, |
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Post by Natalie on Mar 8, 2020 7:21:07 GMT -6
telaine, welcome to the forum! Thank you for your encouragement. Once you get to know us, you will be reassured that we do more than just sit around talking/blogging.  If you look around the forum, you will see that there has been discussion as to the difference between tribulation and The Tribulation. The Tribulation is part of Daniel's 70th week and is not for the church. You will also find through those discussions that we don't all agree on the timing. But, yes, Christians will go through general tribulation. Personally, I don't tell people that they will escape. I tell them about Jesus.
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Post by disciple4life on Mar 8, 2020 8:02:25 GMT -6
telaine ,
Hello and a warm welcome to the Forum. We are so glad you found us, and look forward to your future posts and thoughts as well all share our perspectives. Natalie said it well that we have a very diverse mix and people from different countries, and cultures as well as very different doctrinal/ theological backgrounds. (A bit like the kingdom of God in that regard)
Natalie also made a very good point that I noticed but she welcomed you first. ;-) Many people - even those who hold different views on the timing of the rapture - whether Pre-tribulation, Mid Tribulation, Pre-wrath and Post-tribulation recognize that Daniel's 70th week, aka the 7 year tribulation is divided into 2 parts of roughly 3 1/2 years each. This is why you may have noticed that Natalie and many others use 'tribulation - little t' to mean either general trials of life, that all Christians face now, or little t tribulation to mean the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year period, and Big T Tribulation to mean the last 3 1/2 years when the AC is revealed and the mark of the beast is enforced and 'all Hell breaks loose'. Many people also use the phrase "The Great Tribulation" to refer to the last 3 1/2 year period - it's really a way of letting people know specifically what we mean.
I don't know how long you have been on the journey, and we all are at different places. Your statement that all positions are correct is very confusing. Perhaps you could explain from scripture how they all are correct.
I don't mean to seem hostile or confrontational, please don't take it that way, [I'm mostly a fun-loving otter personality ] but four positions that are very different can't all be correct.
In other words, I understand and respect the fact that some people believe in a surprise, imminent, any day rapture. Could be any Tuesday, and could be Tomorrow. This group is actually the majority and how I was raised all my life, [but not what I believe at all.]
And there is the group that believes that the rapture is not imminent, Not a surprise, and not Any day or time - but it's a very specific period and God told us when to watch. Both of these positions cannot be correct.
Or another analogy - just to clarify what I mean in a different way. Some sincerely believe that the AC is alive now, and though not yet revealed - he is someone the world would recognize - he's building his resume. Others believe the AC is not alive now, - he's dead. May be a charismatic figure from politics, who died 40 years ago, or maybe someone from 17th century.
Both views cannot be correct
Of course I may be mistaken, but as I read your post and the desriptions of your loved ones, I got the impression that you meant their position was related or somehow connected to when the person themself died, - whether pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation.
But the 4 different views -[These are the main 4] are not at all connected to when the person dies, but when the rapture happens on the timeline of the Second Advent - [The Rapture, 7 year tribulation and all the events that occur during the 7 year period, the second coming of Christ, and Millennium.]
Blessings,
Disciple4life
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Post by kjs on Mar 21, 2020 14:55:52 GMT -6
telaine, Welcome to this website! Hope you will be around awhile and share.... I too (like disciple4life,) want to stress I am not trying to argue, simply trying to understand your position. As earlier posts in this thread point out the written form of communication can lose important information and context because there is no non-verbale clues to help one understand. Your post seems to suggest (and again it is simply how I read your post to say). That your father would be Pre-Trib since he has already passed away. While others who are currently dying because of their current struggles and trials are Mid-Trib. If that is what you are saying - it is possible you may not fully understand the positions (as disciple4life, points out). For example your father who is no longer in this mortal realm ... Will indeed take part of the rapture - regardless whether it be Pre, Mid, Post. For Apotsle Paul tells us ... The dead will raise first and then we who are alive will be raised .... So when one dies does not determine whether it be Pre, Mid, or Post... Thanks KJ
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