Jesus' Olivet Discourse & The Rapture

Dec 21, 2018 16:54:50 GMT -6 fitz said:

And that right there is one of my primary arguments against a Post-Trib understanding. If they want to use Matthew 24....well, they can't have it both ways. The Second Coming should be fairly easy to pinpoint in time. Just count!

holy and fitz , your posts here on Dec 21, really were highlighting some great points.

A huge amount of confusion is totally cleared away when we do three very important things.
1. We look at an important phrase taken out of context and misconstrued .   ***One of the most fundamental principles of Bible Interpretation is that "before we ask or assume what it means to us [Gentiles] today, in our culture, we have to ask what did it mean to them, [Jewish authors, written to Jewish readers, ] in their day." 
2. We harmonize the words of Paul and Christ
3. We have to stop and seriously ask ourselves the question "Are Christ and Paul trying to trick us?"

One of my favorite movies is Princess Bride for many reasons but one is the line when the Giant/Fezzik  says to the evil bald guy/Vizzini regarding his overuse of "inconceivable" and he says, "I don't think that means what you think it means".

Nowhere in scripture is there a shred of a verse that says the rapture is imminent or could be any day, any moment.

In fact -  what we have are multiple clear examples of us, Christians not being surprised,  - the bridesmaids not being surprised by the Groom, and righteous Lot not being surprised by the punishment, and Noah not being surprised by the Flood, and Joseph, - a type of Christ, not being surprised by a random, imminent 7 year famine.    
Christ himself said to the foolish bridesmaids that they did not know the time/hour.
***many ignore or overlook the point that the 5 wise bridesmaids Did know. -- Were not Surprised.

Many also overlook Paul's words that "you are not children of the darkness/night, but are children of the day so that day will not surprise you like a thief in the night.
Gary in the first page mentioned the fact that "No one knows the day or Hour" is a Jewish idiom for the Feast of Trumpets  as clear and instantly recognized as "turkey day" to any American.

***This was the only Feast that occurred on the New Moon, and it was sometimes cloudy or rainy, and so the New Moon could not be seen, and so this feast lasts two days- and thus is the "Feast that No One Knows the Day or Hour".   This two day Feast literally set the calendar for the entire year, and determined the dates for the weekly Sabbath and the forgiveness of sins.   The importance of this cannot be overstated.  

Here imagine Fezzik the Giant is saying "I don't think that means what you think it means".   

**Matthew is a book by a Jewish author, about a Jewish man, to Jewish audience.

Think about this and let it percolate a minute.  What context of Last trumpet was in practice by the audience at the time of Christ. ??  Or in other words, what trumpet were they familiar with and specifically what Last Trumpet??      - The 100th blast at Feast of Trumpets,  - also known by Jews as Resurrection day.   

As stated in other threads,  this was impossible that this was referring to the 7th trumpet of Revelation, because Revelation was not even written until approx. 40 years after Paul wrote I Corinthians, and approx. 60 years after Christ ascended so this could not have even entered the minds of the audience of Paul or Christ.     

Why would God inspire David to write a Psalm with the wedding context, which parallels the Wedding passage in Matthew, which is explicitly a rapture passage, only for Christians to ignore the Jewish wedding traditions, and then insist that the Rapture is connected with Thanksgiving, or Christmas.   

Why would Paul give an idiom, that matches  the exact same event, [Moadim,  literally translated "Appointed Time"] to which Christ also referred,  ??  To trick us?  

Paul explicitly says in black and white that we will NOT be surprised, - in contrast to those foolish bridesmaids, and those [Non-Christians] who are children of darkness and yet Christians ignore this and believe the notion that the rapture will be a surprise/ any day.      It's neither logical nor following sound Hermeneutics.         

Let's say a person was Polish/ French mix, and raised in Poland, and they are writing about an event in Poland, and the readers are Polish,  and the writer says this event happens on the "Day of Fireworks".   

Then, along comes a bunch of Americans, and everyone is like, "Yeah, it's completely obvious, - everyone knows the Day of Fireworks is July 4th, Independence Day."  

The German, French, Danish, Dutch, Spanish, Polish and Norwegians all instantly know that the European writer, writing about an event in Europe, written to Europeans, is explicitly referring not to American Independence Day, but New Years' Day.  

When you look at the context of who wrote it, and the place it was written, and the audience,  and then ignore the Hebrew wedding and extrapolate a Western interpretation and then say it shows the rapture could be any day - violates every principle of sound Biblical interpretation.  

• Furthermore, when we look at the wedding context, - the Groom came with a shout,  and harmonize the words of Christ and the passage in Revelation and the Psalm, and the words of Paul, 
• and remember  that the "Feasts are a shadow of things to come", [the word for Feasts - Moadim is also translated as rehearsals] and cross reference this with the day count in Daniel and Revelation, we see again, a Hebrew world view, 42 months x 30 days plus added leap month = exactly 1290 days. 
• and we look at the fact that as Gary pointed out in the article,  but the Greek word for tribulation is not the same as trials and tests that we all face,
• and the cultural piece that the groom literally lifts his bride up and she is carried away into the chupah [Bridal chamber] for 7 days,      

then to insist that the wedding doesn't matter, or doesn't apply, and ignore the grammatical context, the cultural context  and the order of the feasts, and dismiss all the clues from Paul and Christ,  is the same as trying to force an American meaning of the word  "Football" on something that every person in every other country on the planet all knows and understands.   

I am not of the belief that Christ or Paul was trying to trick us.

Maranatha, 

Feb 28, 2020 7:59:46 GMT -6 venge said:

Feb 27, 2020 22:23:43 GMT -6 disciple4life said:

venge , I'm not sure what you're getting at with the kJV/ old english wording.

If there is a question or subject from the Bible and the answer is clearly stated in scripture, then we can be sure that it is from a Hebrew worldview.
Maybe just say your view and share how it relates to this topic and every one can chime in.

What day is Christ married? Based on your knowledge, what day does scripture say he’s married on? I can’t ask it simpler than that.

Let me try it this way, In your own understanding:
How many times in he married?
When is he married?
Please, only scripture to support whatever notion you hold to.

Venge,  

OK,  I'm happy to cite the verse with a caveat --    

I find your request to only use scripture to support my point as very strange.  

1,   First, it's not sound principles of Biblical interpretation to suggest, insist that a serious student of scripture ignores cultural and or Historical context and/or extra-Biblical sources as evidence.  

     Gary does this, as does mike and yardstick and fitz, and boraddict and kjs and every single reputable Bible scholar.  

2.  Second, it's strange because it's a standard you yourself don't follow, as you often cite commentaries, and so, I don't agree to this.   

 I don't expect you will agree with the answer, but we can agree to disagree.  

So to answer your question as to "What day is Christ married" - the question needs a bit of unpacking.   In multiple passages in the epistles of Paul we are told that we, the Church/ Christians are the bride of Christ,  in the present tense, but it's more like we are betrothed,/ engaged, and Christ the groom has promised to return for his Bride, while he prepares a place for his bride.     

So scripture is clear that we are already Christ's bride, and he claims his bride, with a shout, at the rapture, when we are gathered together with him, lifted up, - snatched up quickly.  

So if we ask "According to scripture, when was the wedding, or when will the wedding take place," there are several scriptures that we should consider and harmonize.  

One is Christ's words himself -in the well-known parable of the wedding in Matthew 25

Matthew 25 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The Parable of the Ten Bridesmaids

        25 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.

      2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6         But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids got up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are     going  out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘No! there will not be enough for you and for us; you had better go to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy it, the bridegroom came, and those who were     ready went with him into the wedding banquet; and the door was shut. 11 Later the other bridesmaids came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’ 13 Keep awake therefore, for     you know neither the day nor the hour.

This is a rapture passage, So Christ comes to claim his bride at the rapture, Harpazo.      

Technically, we are betrothed to Christ, and he has promised to return.

Revelation 19:6-9 English Standard Version (ESV)

    The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

    6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,
    “Hallelujah!
    For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
    7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
    for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
    8 it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—

    for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
    9 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

So from the context of Revelation 19: 6-9, and the text itself says the marriage supper of the lamb.    For clarity, this topic heading is also found in multiple translations, to show the context is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. 

So when we look at the imagery of the Hebrew wedding tradition, we know that the Groom comes with a shout - and he comes for his bride.  Then, she is literally lifted up and carried away into the wedding chamber [the chupah]  for 7 days,  and we see this same imagery again in Psalms 27  as @gary mentions in his article on the home page.  

She [The Bride] is with the Groom in the Chupah for 7 days, [the unmistakably clear parallel to the 7 year tribulation period] and they have the marriage supper,  which we see in Revelation 19:6-9

            ["Using first century rabbinical methods of story telling and themes of the Jewish Festivals, Jesus told his disciples in story form what day and hour the home taking of the bride was to be expected.  This is understood by the             terminology. 

            In telling this story of the ten bridesmaids, Jesus says "The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. and the door was shut.   

            Again, when you see a door or gate opened, it is a picture of the first day of the seventh month, Rosh Hashanah.   This wedding concept is used over and over by Jesus, Matthew, Paul, and Johnand moany others.  It refers to the             bridegroom coming to claim his betrothed bride and taking here to the wedding chamber (chupah)   Once inside, the door is shut and the bride and groom are concealed.  During concealment, there is a celebration with an abundance             of food and wine. 

            Consequently, Jesus says,  'The Virgins/bridesmaids who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet and the door was shut."  This is a clear sign that He is talking about the first day of the seventh month."  ]  

                Avi Ben Mordecai,  Jewish scholar, author, raised Orthodox, became Messianic Jew.   'Signs in the Heavens' 

Blessings,    Hope this post is encouraging and enlightening to all.   I give Avi Ben Mordecai's book a 5 ***** recommendation.   Mind-blowing, how many things come to life that we miss and misunderstand, by not understanding the lens of the Hebrew world view, and all the things that we can never grasp without understanding the history and culture of Jesus time.